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Apparently some people don't like playing MSU. Why don't you?

MSU has been my thing since 5th. Unless I'm trying to get mileage out of psyker buffs or something.

cause it hurts my wallet

It's dull. Purchasing the minimum amount to take advantage of either the minimum requirements for a metal box or the minimum requirements for a Formation or to take advantage of the 'each unit can only shoot one enemy unit' rule is not enjoyable to me. I like to play the game like a game, which is for fun. Breaking it down to min/max things does break the game in a way that I don't think was intended for a skirmish game or whatever 40k has become.

I prefer an army on the table. Full army complete with squads and guns and bodies and boxes and all the fun stuff that is included there. It's just more fun that way for me.

More units to move around I guess?

MSU csn feel "gimmicky" to some people, and it does sometimes introduce artificialities in some cases, though at the same time, is probably the most realistic reflection of actual real world battlefield operations in most instances. Infantry for example tend to operate in squads or fire teams, 4-12 guys, not as a whole platoon or company the way they did in the 19th century or the early days of WW1.

Ill take MSU over deathstars any day of the week.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
It's dull. Purchasing the minimum amount to take advantage of either the minimum requirements for a metal box or the minimum requirements for a Formation or to take advantage of the 'each unit can only shoot one enemy unit' rule is not enjoyable to me. I like to play the game like a game, which is for fun. Breaking it down to min/max things does break the game in a way that I don't think was intended for a skirmish game or whatever 40k has become.

I prefer an army on the table. Full army complete with squads and guns and bodies and boxes and all the fun stuff that is included there. It's just more fun that way for me.

Pretty much this. It’s the fluff as well as the mechanics that keep me in this game. Tactical squads should be 10 men. It’s what the Codex tells us to do. Feels right. Now, I’ll often field assault or dev squads as 5 men. Same with scouts and bikes. But the core of my lists tends to be at least a pair of full tac squads, with both the special and the heavy.

But I’m an old fashioned Ultramarine like that.

I prefer MSU over death stars any day. Personally I would love to take ten marines in a tac squad but it's just not worth it gameplay wise.

For me it depends on the army. Due to the durability, Necron can do MSU pretty good, while Dark Eldar don't have any units that are good in big block, thus making MSU their ideal format. Space Marines now have access to free transports, making MSU very appealing for them, however, very Elite armies like GK's and Space Wolves prefer to have points invested in quality units.

As Eldar and Daemons are my primary armies, I prefer a mix of MSU with some substantial units. WraithKnight with some Scatterbikes, or Flying Daemon MC's and Soulgrinders mixed with small fast units like Fleshhounds, Screamer, Daemonettes, etc.

For me, I default to MSU due to tactical flexibility. It is only when an army has access to versatile combos or "must-have" units that I invest more than 100-150pts on a unit.

For me it's unfluffy in some cases. Tactical squads are suppose to be at 10-man strong, with 1 heavy weapon, 1 special weapon and a sarge. It feels weird to forego it for a bare minimum amount just to fulfill a FoC or Formation requirement.

I dont know if i would be classed as playing msu due to the fact i take 10 man squads but then combat squad

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
For me it's unfluffy in some cases. Tactical squads are suppose to be at 10-man strong, with 1 heavy weapon, 1 special weapon and a sarge. It feels weird to forego it for a bare minimum amount just to fulfill a FoC or Formation requirement.

They're not supposed to be terrible, either, but they are.

I don't mind playing a casual MSU style army what I don't do like is playing optimized MSU. That is almost as bad as playing deathstars.

To give you an example. I don't mind fielding some grot units mixed with lone buggies but free transport msu is just horrible.

Back in the old days taking MSU was at the expense of being slot inefficient because the standard Force Org only had 6 troops, 3 elite/fast/heavy, and 2 HQs. Taking MSU Ork Deffkoptas was very target and leadership efficient but it limited how many fast units and total koptas you have on the board. Now with multiple CADs and the Decurion style detachments the number of slots you have are much higher so that trade off is less consequential.

That being said things like Battle Company with its free transports eliminates the inefficiency of running MSU (a rhino's point cost for 10 marines is the same as 5 marines) so there is little reason to not take 2 units of 5 marines in rhinos/razorbacks instead of taking a unit of 10 tacticals in 1 rhino.

While not necessary MSU but seeing 2 minimum size troops to fill the troops tax for a CAD or similar detachment is rather annoying as it feels kinda scummy (looking at those 2 minimum size Fire Warrior squads you see in nearly every competitive Tau list).

So I don't mind MSU what I dislike is min maxing to the extreme.

Back in my day, MSU was a form of min maxing that saw 6 man lascannon and plasmagun squads be very popular.
the number 6 was low but took advantage of several rules - you had to reduce the squad to a single model before it was below 25% and then subject to morale penalties and the firepower was maximized.

I guess when people do MSU to reduce casualties rather than cover ground it annoys people.

I think its quite fluffy for a 5 man marine demi-squad to be operating separately from their brothers to guard an objective or what have you.

Well, I generally take larger units: full Tacticals, 10 men Warrior/Immortal units. MSU can be very fragile.
I play mostly 30k/HH. Here the units are larger by default.

I actually like the idea of taking full Tactical marine squads, and then combat squadding them out to get MSU going.

Oddly I'm experimenting with MSU with orks. Granted, a "small unit" of orks, in my case, is 20 boyz, but I definitely see why people wouldn't like it. The very reason I'm going with MSU is because of the whole "one unit shoots at one unit" rule. Literally the only reason I'm doing it is for metagaming. For some people that's seen as a bit cheesey, I guess, but if it's just a natural reaction to what I've been playing against. Why have one unit of 15 lootas that'll get shot to hell when I can have two units of 10 that will survive longer? Why have one squad of 30 boyz that will get shot to hell when I can have three squads of 20 boyz that will be a far tougher problem to deal with?

Granted, these reasons are vastly different than the ones stated before. A lot of MSU'ing is just to get the free transport or specialist weapon. Honestly, it doesn't bother me that much. Maybe it's because I'm a bit of a metagamer, but I don't take issue with people doing things just for a bit of an advantage. What I do take issue with is people taking this to an extreme.

I have always loved MSU. Some Armies look better as MSU than Blobs. I run Chosenwing for pete's sake.


Marines of all flavors and Fire Warriors/most tau stuff except Crisis suits and Hazard Suits look best to me when they are in their Minimum Squad sizes. But I want to see a LOT of those squads(like at least 4-5).

Now Guard, Orkz and Nids should be putting entire mortgage payments worth of models on the table, with some big stuff splashed in to flavor.

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
Oddly I'm experimenting with MSU with orks. Granted, a "small unit" of orks, in my case, is 20 boyz, but I definitely see why people wouldn't like it. The very reason I'm going with MSU is because of the whole "one unit shoots at one unit" rule. Literally the only reason I'm doing it is for metagaming. For some people that's seen as a bit cheesey, I guess, but if it's just a natural reaction to what I've been playing against. Why have one unit of 15 lootas that'll get shot to hell when I can have two units of 10 that will survive longer? Why have one squad of 30 boyz that will get shot to hell when I can have three squads of 20 boyz that will be a far tougher problem to deal with?

Granted, these reasons are vastly different than the ones stated before. A lot of MSU'ing is just to get the free transport or specialist weapon. Honestly, it doesn't bother me that much. Maybe it's because I'm a bit of a metagamer, but I don't take issue with people doing things just for a bit of an advantage. What I do take issue with is people taking this to an extreme.

That sounds more like not putting all your eggs in one basket. For instance, you could blob a guard infantry platoon to have a 20-50 man squad but no-one calls it msu if you don't.
There are usually 6 objectives and having 2 troop squads totalling a hundred men, backed up by 2 other 5 man squads can make it difficulty to claim them.

When i think of msu I think of small units with special or heavy weapons, such that I have to kill the other 4 guys to get rid of the plasmagun, and there are as many plasmaguns as is possible to field. Its more about maximising an offensive or defensive quality rather than breaking down larger units into more manageable parts.

Depends on the format you're playing. My tournaments here have at least one mission with Kill Points. Maelstrom needs a balance between being able to claim the objectives you need to and not giving up easy points on the 'No Prisoners' type cards.

Some armies don't have much of a choice but to do MSU.

Well, mainly because I cant. My Guard come in 10 man sections, no more, no less

Not that I like deathstars, but I really like the feeling of charging in with 20 bloodletters and just massacre a unit. Similarly with Fleshhounds, Melee Chaos Space Marines or the like.

With MSU I feel I lack the punch of those giant clashes. Sure it's better in gameplay purposes, but it's rare that I min-max as i feel like I am bitchslapping my opponentn 5 times a minute instead of just knocking him out.

More punch and kick please.