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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




That is correct and can happen within the same shooting attack from a single unit.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Is there any basis to compare this to shooting a the different facing of a vehicle? I believe in that case, models firing in the side armour are resolved separately from those firing in the front armour (if the side and front are different)

So would the 1 model inside the VSG fire at the intended target and the models from outside would be resolved at the shield?

Otherwise I would say the "whole" unit is considered inside the shield if 1 model is. I say this only because a hypothetical third unit (outside the VSG) would consider Unit 2 (our original firing unit) to be inside the VSG for purposes of being targeted.

------
Interesting scenario: A unit has 1 model within the VS, the rest are outside 12". That 1 model has a Plasma gun and for some odd reason you want the plasma gun to fire first. Gets Hot! kills that 1 model. Now the rest of the unit is outside the VS for resolving their shots. Is that right? Sounds right to me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/16 15:26:11


   
Made in us
Not as Good as a Minion





Astonished of Heck

Fragile wrote:
That is correct and can happen within the same shooting attack from a single unit.

Not quite. Shooting Attack origin is the use of the term, not if the shooting unit is within range.

Case in point, if only one model in a shooting unit is within in Rapid Fire range of the rest of the weapons of the unit, do all the models fire 2 shots or one?

Yet, so long as the front model stays within full range of any models of the target unit, the Wounds those guns can still be applied, even if he did not shoot.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






Units and models can be separate things for all sorts of ranges... like most weapons shooting(1 model in range of your 6 tac marines with bolters means that the unit is within range of those 6 bolters, a 7th tac marine that is not within range cannot fire. After all 6 bolters fire only that 1 model in the target unit can be killed, the rest are out of range)

So we are back to: is the model or the unit making the shooting attack.

If it is the model; then only the models within the zone ignore the zone protection.

If it is the unit; then a single model within the zone means all shots ignore the protection, and half the special rules and wargear in the game do not work.

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
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Dakka Veteran





California

If a single blast hitS 6 models under a vold shield, is the shield hit once or six times ?

This is what I argue over all the time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/16 22:40:00


- Neva trust a Deff Skull , gitz just wanna take yur lootz
- Only good Deff Skull iz a Ded one !  
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
If a single blast hitS 6 models under a vold shield, is the shield hit once or six times ?

This is what I argue over all the time.



From Stronghold Assault FAQ, December 2015:
ERRATA
Page 31 – Projected Void Shields:
Add the following to the end of this rule:
‘If a weapon uses a template or blast marker and it hits
one or more units protected by a Void Shield Zone,
ignore the number of hits it would normally cause to the
unit(s) and instead roll to penetrate the void shield once
using the weapon’s normal rules and profile for each
template or blast marker that hits.’

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
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Made in us
Furious Fire Dragon





 Kommissar Kel wrote:
So we are back to: is the model or the unit making the shooting attack.

If it is the model; then only the models within the zone ignore the zone protection.

If it is the unit; then a single model within the zone means all shots ignore the protection.....


I agree that these are the only two options and believe the first option is (more) correct, RaW, due to the way that shooting attacks are executed. For ease of play, however, I am getting the sense that making the unit/zone interaction 'simple' leads to less confusion/annoyance overall. I'm fine playing it the second way.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Units and models can be separate things for all sorts of ranges... like most weapons shooting(1 model in range of your 6 tac marines with bolters means that the unit is within range of those 6 bolters, a 7th tac marine that is not within range cannot fire. After all 6 bolters fire only that 1 model in the target unit can be killed, the rest are out of range)

So we are back to: is the model or the unit making the shooting attack.

If it is the model; then only the models within the zone ignore the zone protection.

If it is the unit; then a single model within the zone means all shots ignore the protection, and half the special rules and wargear in the game do not work.

Spoiler:

During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be
nominated to make shooting attacks.

Note use of the plural, "shooting attacks".


Spoiler:
Whilst some units are comprised entirely of models with the same weaponry, many units
are equipped with a variety of different weapons or contain models that are themselves
equipped with more than one gun. When firing with a unit, completely resolve all attacks
from the same weapons at the same time before moving onto any differently named
weapons (see Select Another Weapon, below).


Subsets of units make shooting attacks.

Each subset is a model/weapon combination.

So if a unit has a choice of 1 shooting weapon or elects to have the whole unit choose to fire just that shooting weapon then you have 1 shooting attack.

If a unit has 2 models equipped with flamers and 4 models equipped with bolters you have 2 shooting attacks. Split fire, etc. can also factor in and provide additional shooting attacks.

Not all of the models need to fire in a shooting attack but once the shooting attack of a model/weapon combination has been made by some number less than the total number of models in that model/weapon combination then you cannot return to that model/weapon combination for the models that did not participate. The shooting attack of that model/weapon combination has been expended.

Spoiler:
A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers. This must be declared
before rolling To Hit. If a model chooses not to shoot with the currently selected weapon
now, it cannot fire that weapon later during the same phase (but it can shoot a differently
named weapon it is equipped with). All of the models in the unit that are firing the
selected weapon shoot at the same time, regardless of whether or not all of the dice
are rolled together.


So an astute player that has one model inside the VSG bubble can elect to make the shooting attack with just that model in order to avoid the shooting attack being "outside" the VSG.

However, the shooting attack of that particular model/weapon combination will have been expended completely (except for Split Fire, tc.) and you cannot return to shooting the rest of that model/weapon combination from the position outside the VSG. That's the cost choosing to make the shooting attack be comprised of just the model or models not outside the VSG.

This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2016/02/16 23:52:39


 
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






Second and third spoiler tags never use the term "shooting attack" nor "shooting attacks".

I also find your distinction of plurality in this case funny since I believe you were one of the people arguing that the "canoptek spyder" in the harvest formation indicated model instead of unit while ignoring the grammatical number.

So after reading that you select a unit to make its shooting attacks; you start declaring each weapon selected is a subset of "the unit's shooting attacks"(before we get to making any of them, we have just selected the weapon we are firing from the unit). This still makes all of those special rules I mentioned earlier useless outside of maybe a unit of only that model making a shooting attack with that weapon.

Models make individual shooting attacks with individual weapons.

Units decide to make some shooting attacks.

An individual model is were the individual shooting attack originates. This is because a unit within 24" of a tac squad(1 model to 1 model) can only have that 1 bolter make a shooting attack against it. Or more to the point: a warlocks unit with a single singing spear, that is out of range, cannot benefit from fleshbane.


This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Kommissar Kel wrote:

I also find your distinction of plurality in this case funny since I believe you were one of the people arguing that the "canoptek spyder" in the harvest formation indicated model instead of unit while ignoring the grammatical number.



Formations specify units so Canoptek Harvest is [a unit of] 1 Canoptek Spyder. You can add additional Spyders because the permission to do so is on the ALE and the Formation lists no restrictions.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Second and third spoiler tags never use the term "shooting attack" nor "shooting attacks".



We infer from context, since there is no BRB definition. We need to sort out what 'shooting attack' can plausibly mean and discard implausible definitions.

Consider what I have proposed so far an attempt at a plausible definition of terms.

Can you clarify exactly what makes my proposed definition implausible?



How everything comes together is not altogether clear. The BRB seems to contradict itself.

Here a shooting attack is singular and refers to the collective of attacks made by the unit.

Spoiler:
If a unit has no differently named weapons, or if it chooses not to fire any of them, you can choose another of your units to make your next shooting attack, or proceed to the Assault phase.


Spoiler:
Then, the target enemy unit gets to make a special kind of shooting attack called Overwatch (see below).



Here a unit can make shooting attacks [plural] in the basic rule sense.

Spoiler:
During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.


Spoiler:
If a non-vehicle unit suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from a weapon with the Pinning special rule, it must take a Leadership test once the firing unit has finished its shooting attacks for that phase.



Here shooting attack refers possibly to a model's individual shooting attack.

Spoiler:
If a model makes a shooting attack with a weapon that has this special rule, it rolls an additional D6 for armour penetration.


However, the term shooting attack here could instead refer to a collective shooting attack that the model is participating in.



And in fact the only sense of 'shooting attack' that seems to make sense of all of its uses is to consider it as always the collective meaning. A model makes a shooting attack as part of a collective shooting attack.


So I think the only plausible definitions are:

a unit makes a shooting attack per unit . . .

Spoiler:
Once you have completed steps 1 to 7 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack


. . . or a unit makes possibly several shooting attacks per subset of models/weapons.

Spoiler:
During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.


Spoiler:
If a non-vehicle unit suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from a weapon with the Pinning special rule, it must take a Leadership test once the firing unit has finished its shooting attacks for that phase.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/02/17 03:55:30


 
   
 
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