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Please accept as given that a VSG provides protection to any unit with at least one model within 12". Thus it is possible to conga-line away from a VSG and still be afforded protection by its Void Shield(s).

As part of the scenario: A unit that is protected by a VSG is being attacked (shot at) by a unit with a single model within 12" of that VSG.

RaW: "Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield." (Stronghold Assault)

So, if the attacking unit has a single model within 12" of the VSG, with the rest conga-lined farther away, do all the shooting attacks from that attacking unit bypass the Void Shield(s)?

I look forward to your reasoned responses.

Edited for scenario clarity.

DCannon4Life wrote:
Please accept as given that a VSG provides protection to any unit with at least one model within 12". Thus it is possible to conga-line away from a VSG and still be afforded protection by its Void Shield(s).

RaW: "Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield." (Stronghold Assault)

So, if an attacking unit has a single model within 12" of a VSG, with the rest conga-lined farther away, do all the shooting attacks from that attacking unit bypass the Void Shield(s)?

I look forward to your reasoned responses.

I'm confused. It sounds like you're asking if a unit within 12" of a VSG who is making a shooting attack bypasses the void shield. This seems impossible to answer as we don't know anything about the target. Where is the target of the shooting attack? Attacking units don't care about VSGs unless their target is being protected by one.

I think he is asking:

Player 1 has a VSG
Player 1 has a unit of models within 12" of the VSG
Player 2 has a unit of models of which some are within 12" of the VSG and some are not

Player 2 declares shooting attack against Player 1's unit. Does the attack bypass the VSG since it originated from within the VSG?

Ok, interesting question... one that I'm sure will cause endless bickering over many, many pages.

We have instructions for what happens when a unit is fully within and also for when a unit is fully outside. We don't have any way of determining whether a shooting attack from a unit partially within would be considered within or without. After all, the answer to the question of whether or not the attack originates inside or outside is "both".

Ultimately, the rules are garbage and aren't specific enough. I can't believe the author's intention is to allow a congo line of potentially dozens of models with one guy having a toe in the VSG field be considered as inside the field... for shooting or being a target.

I may get flak, but generally speaking, we treat models "in" ruins to always get the 4+ cover save, even if models "in" the same ruins are targeting them. I would say because of how cover works, the same could be said about being "in" the VSG field.

I get it, cinematicaly that doesn't make sense (i picture the bubble shields from SW episode 1).

Rules do not specify. Closest rule I can think of would be the cover rules. Models out in the open don't benefit from other members of the squad being in cover - don't see why this would be any different.

The clarity is in "shooting attack", which I believe is the sum totoal of that units shooting being one shooting attack

THus One model shooting from within 12" means the shooting attack DOES originate within 12"

Frankly if defending gets to congaline cheese, so does the attacker.

Cover Saves from Ruins is pointless to bring up, as Cover Saves from Terrain generally only apply to those models who are actually in it, not units. The Void Shield is applied to a unit that meets its criteria.

The question is, does "within" require all models to be in the noted area, or just a portion of it?

WarmaHordes rules makes a distinction that it will be fulfilled with even one model inside the zone, while Warhammer rules do not.

Off hand, even without that specific distinction that WM/H rules have, the general perspective of "within" for a unit as gleaned from Shooting would indicate that even a single model of the unit in range would allow the whole unit to benefit.

Don't the rules clarify what "within" means, as well as "wholly within"?

Indeed, hence why saying as the criteria is on the "shooting attack" being within (and not wholly within) the 12" zone, that one firing model being within 12" would seem to satisfy that requirement.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The clarity is in "shooting attack", which I believe is the sum totoal of that units shooting being one shooting attack

THus One model shooting from within 12" means the shooting attack DOES originate within 12"

Frankly if defending gets to congaline cheese, so does the attacker.

The problem is that you can use the same logic to demonstrate that the shooting attack also originates from outside the 12" bubble. Watch this...

Thus, one model shooting from outside 12" means the shooting attack DOESN'T originate within 12".

This is the issue here. How do we define where a shooting attack comes from? It obviously comes from the unit as a whole, but more specifically, can we pick a specific model and measure from him/her/it? Do we have to pick the closest model to the target unit? I don't think there are any rules to support this issue.

From 'Measuring Distances' on page 10 of the main rulebook:

Distances between units are always measured to and from the base of the closest models in each of the units...

 Ghaz wrote:
From 'Measuring Distances' on page 10 of the main rulebook:

Distances between units are always measured to and from the base of the closest models in each of the units...

Excellent. Thanks Ghaz. So, you measure from the closest shooting model to the closest attacking model. If those models are both within 12" of the VSG, there is no protection. If the closest shooting model is outside and the closest target model is inside, there will be protection.

That's not relevent, though. The rule doesn't say that if you're more than 12" away from the void shield, hits are resolved against the void shield. It says "hits that originate from OUTSIDE the void shield hit the void shield instead". Since a unit is considered inside the void shield if it has even a single model inside of 12", then this entire discussion is moot. A unit with a single model inside a void shield fires from inside the void shield, immune to its effects.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
That's not relevent, though. The rule doesn't say that if you're more than 12" away from the void shield, hits are resolved against the void shield. It says "hits that originate from OUTSIDE the void shield hit the void shield instead". Since a unit is considered inside the void shield if it has even a single model inside of 12", then this entire discussion is moot. A unit with a single model inside a void shield fires from inside the void shield, immune to its effects.

The rule isn't asking in the shooting unit is inside the 12" bubble. It cares, instead, about where the shooting attack is coming from. We've demonstrated that measuring between units is done by measuring the distance between the two closest models' bases. Hence, when we want to know where a shooting attack is coming from, we'd look at the two units and measure the distance between them. If we have to say where exactly the shooting attack is coming from, we can't just say "the unit" as that's too vague. If we have to measure to a point, we'd measure to the closest point on the closest model's base from the shooting unit. Hence, I think it's fair to say that if the closest model is outside the bubble, the shooting attack originates outside the bubble. If he's inside, it originates inside.

I think that's the most reasonable interpretation.

Again, we don't care about whether or not the unit is under the protective bubble. We care where the shooting attack originates from. These are two very different concepts.

Is a "shooting attack" by unit, model, or weapon is the real question.

The shooting phase, along with several special rules, are all rather ambiguous about this.

Units make shooting attacks.

Units are the target of shooting attacks.

The rule checks to see if the unit making the shooting attack is outside the VSG. If at least one model is outside the VSG then the unit is outside.

The rule checks to see if the target unit is within the VSG. If at least one model is within the VSG then the unit is within.

If the rule was checking for "wholly outside" or "wholly within" then it would specify that.

col_impact wrote:
Units make shooting attacks.

Units are the target of shooting attacks.

The rule checks to see if the unit making the shooting attack is outside the VSG. If at least one model is outside the VSG then the unit is outside.

The rule checks to see if the target unit is within the VSG. If at least one model is within the VSG then the unit is within.

If the rule was checking for "wholly outside" or "wholly within" then it would specify that.

The rule does NOT check to see if the unit making the shooting attack is outside the VSG. The rule checks to see where the shooting attack is coming from. This is a very important difference.

"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield."

The originating UNIT is never mentioned. Only the shooting attack.

If we ask the question "where specifically does a shooting attack originate", our natural answer will be "from the unit making the shooting attack". This is vague and doesn't give us a spot on the table that we can point at. If we then ask, "for the purposes of making a shooting attack, where in the unit would we be measuring from", we're able to find a specific answer. We measure from the closest model's base.

I think my interpretation of checking to see where on the unit you'd measure for when making a shooting attack and taking that as the origination point of the shooting attack is more reasonable than looking at the unit as a whole and arbitrarily saying the shooting attacks originates from inside a VSG bubble because one model has a toe in.

Interpretation is required for both sides, but my answer appears to have more rules support AND results in a spot on the table you can point at.

Let's keep digging. I agree that the rule only cares that the shooting attack is in no way shape or form outside the VSG.

A smart player could make the shooting attack include just the firers inside the VSG which could enable the shooting attack to not be outside the VSG.

col_impact wrote:
Units make shooting attacks.

So; how does fleshbane work then?

Or Armourbane?

Or precision shots?

Or shred?

Or Sniper?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Units make shooting attacks.

So; how does fleshbane work then?

Or Armourbane?

Or precision shots?

Or shred?

Or Sniper?

Your point isn't clear. Care to elaborate? None of the rules you mentioned care about where specifically an attack originates, so I'm not sure I'm seeing the relevance.

Each has to do with a model making a shooting attack with the weapon.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tau velocity tracker gets even worse.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Each has to do with a model making a shooting attack with the weapon.

We're talking about how to determine where a shooting attack comes from. Nobody is questioning that a shooting attack is occurring. Is your stance each individual model's shots should be considered as his shooting attacks originating from his base? If so, it might help to spell that out. I might be in the minority here, but your point wasn't immediately obvious.

Sorry the post before impact's quote was me stating:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Is a "shooting attack" by unit, model, or weapon is the real question.

The shooting phase, along with several special rules, are all rather ambiguous about this.

So; yeah, where a shooting attack originates(or for that matter some definition of the term) would depend on that question.

The Tau codex makes things incredibly ambiguous as it has wargear and rules for both a unit's shooting attacks, and a model's shooting attacks


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The first time "shooting attacks" appears in the shooting phase rules is under nominate a unit to shoot.

It is not mentioned again unitl special rules; which all state model making a shooting attack with a weapon with special rule(or similar wording).

All the rest of the shooting phase rules discuss firing or shots.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Is a "shooting attack" by unit, model, or weapon is the real question.

The shooting phase, along with several special rules, are all rather ambiguous about this.

It's mostly used to refer to the shooting of the whole unit but there are a few examples of it being used to refer to the shooting of a specific weapon.

Consistency is overrated.

Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and
hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield.

People are ignoring the fact that a unit with 1 model inside the range of the void shield is considered to ALL be inside the void shield. That said, the shooting attack comes from them, who are ALL considered to be inside it. There is no range mentioned in the above rule. Just that if it originates outside the void shield or not, which it can't do if it's coming from a unit that is inside the void shield.

Yeah Kriswall was right this is causing lots of bickering for sure. Funny because it's something that can be easily resolved mutually.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and
hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield.

People are ignoring the fact that a unit with 1 model inside the range of the void shield is considered to ALL be inside the void shield. That said, the shooting attack comes from them, who are ALL considered to be inside it. There is no range mentioned in the above rule. Just that if it originates outside the void shield or not, which it can't do if it's coming from a unit that is inside the void shield.

It's not quite that simple - there are examples of "shooting attack" referring to a unit's shooting and examples of it referring to a single model or weapon.

If it's the former then you're correct - the unit is within 12" so all shots are considered to be inside 12".

If it's the latter then some attacks are inside and some are outside.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Yeah Kriswall was right this is causing lots of bickering for sure. Funny because it's something that can be easily resolved mutually.

HIWPI: Either "all units with a model inside the Void Shield zone are counted as 'in'" or just do it on a model-by-model basis but that would include the protective effect as well. Either/Or, don't really care.
The first would be closest to RAW I feel, as there's a definition for "within" and it doesn't say "fully within". I'd feel more comfortable with treating it like Cover or LoS, on a model by model basis - but that's not really supported by RAW, is it?

I guess the SA rules are just pretty old and need a bit of houseruling here and there to work, wasn't there also an issue with grav weapons?

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and
hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield.

People are ignoring the fact that a unit with 1 model inside the range of the void shield is considered to ALL be inside the void shield. That said, the shooting attack comes from them, who are ALL considered to be inside it. There is no range mentioned in the above rule. Just that if it originates outside the void shield or not, which it can't do if it's coming from a unit that is inside the void shield.

It's not quite that simple - there are examples of "shooting attack" referring to a unit's shooting and examples of it referring to a single model or weapon.

If it's the former then you're correct - the unit is within 12" so all shots are considered to be inside 12".

If it's the latter then some attacks are inside and some are outside.

If the whole unit is considered inside, then so is each individual model. This is based on the ruling of how void shield works. That said, if you kill the 1 guy with a toe inside the shield, suddenly the WHOLE unit is outside the shield again.