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Ashiraya wrote: @notredameguy No, it shouldn't. In an ideal world. it should have tools to counter close combat units like defensive grenades and grav wave generators and the like (though in practice it counters melee simply because it shoots melee before it gets there). It is not at all fair for it to roll over other shooting armies like IG just because Tau are bad at close combat which IG doesn't like either!
Than that's a problem with IG, not Tau. An army that has no other strengths other than shooting SHOULD be better at shooting than other armies that have good CC and/or psychic options
In a rule set that so heavily favours shooting, being good at it is a disproportionate advantage.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ashiraya wrote: @notredameguy No, it shouldn't. In an ideal world. it should have tools to counter close combat units like defensive grenades and grav wave generators and the like (though in practice it counters melee simply because it shoots melee before it gets there). It is not at all fair for it to roll over other shooting armies like IG just because Tau are bad at close combat which IG doesn't like either!
Than that's a problem with IG, not Tau. An army that has no other strengths other than shooting SHOULD be better at shooting than other armies that have good CC and/or psychic options
In a rule set that so heavily favours shooting, being good at it is a disproportionate advantage.
So what? you're saying an army that is one of the worst in the game at CC (beaten maybe only by IG) and IS the worst in the game at both psychic and psychic defense (Having ZERO), they shouldn't be the best at shooting lol?
No, I'm saying that being the best at the thing that is most efficient in terms of removing enemy models is a disproportionate advantage.
I'm not sure I could have said it any more clearly.
Building a competitive assault army is near impossible, building a successful psychic one about as hard, shooting is where it's at. It's not Tau's problem in isolation, it's due to GW's relentless campaign to neuter assault for the last few editions, there's no reason why a poor CC army shouldn't be better at shooting in theory.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Azreal13 wrote: No, I'm saying that being the best at the thing that is most efficient in terms of removing enemy models is a disproportionate advantage.
I'm not sure I could have said it any more clearly.
Building a competitive assault army is near impossible, building a successful psychic one about as hard, shooting is where it's at. It's not Tau's problem in isolation, it's due to GW's relentless campaign to neuter assault for the last few editions, there's no reason why a poor CC army shouldn't be better at shooting in theory.
Ok I agree with that. I agree that assault should be more viable. I was merely stating it shouldn't be a surprise that an army that is horrible at CC and has zero psychic phase is good at shooting.
Martel732 wrote: When I army swapped with Tau, I won most of my CCs. It's pretty easy for a Ritpide to step on two DC or four tac marines.
Yeah eventually lol. On average you will kill 1 per turn. I would gladly have 4 of my tac marines tie up a riptide for several turns lol
The tac marines only lasted two assault phases, so I didn't even miss a shooting phase with the Riptide.
Again, that was from your experience. But on average, only 1 would die per turn. Tying up a 225 point model with less than 60 points of models for the majority of the game is well worth it
WS2 and 3 attacks at I2 is terrible, even with Str 6 AP2
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/15 02:51:47
Martel732 wrote: When I army swapped with Tau, I won most of my CCs. It's pretty easy for a Ritpide to step on two DC or four tac marines.
Yeah eventually lol. On average you will kill 1 per turn. I would gladly have 4 of my tac marines tie up a riptide for several turns lol
The tac marines only lasted two assault phases, so I didn't even miss a shooting phase with the Riptide.
Again, that was from your experience. But on average, only 1 would die per turn. Tying up a 225 point model with less than 60 points of models for the majority of the game is well worth it
WS2 and 3 attacks at I2 is terrible, even with Str 6 AP2
You say that, but the math is on your side. Assaulting with a Riptide gave me 4 attacks that hit on 4's, heavily weighted to two hits that wound on 2's and ignore armor. That can be counted on to kill 2 marines very reliably. In future turns, 3 attacks generates 1.5 hits, not 1 on average. The 1.5 hits generates an average of 1.25 wounds, not 1, but that makes it MUCH more likely to generate 2 than if the average were only 1. The Riptide is not as bad in CC as you make it out to be. Again, S6 AP 2 is really good. Each Riptide hit is as valuable as five marine hits vs meqs. That means a Riptide punches like 15 tactical marines at WS 2. It punches like 20 tac marines when it charges. I don't see how you can say that's bad, given that it can shoot first.
"WS2 and 3 attacks at I2 is terrible, even with Str 6 AP2"
You are completely wrong, as WS is the least valuable stat in the game and init doesn't matter on a unit that never dies. The Str and AP completely trump the WS and init. In fact, WS 2 is not really much different than WS 3, because WS 5 is pretty rare in this game. If they really wanted to make Tau bad a CC, then fire warriors would be Str 2 and the Riptide Str 4. THEN they'd be bad.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/02/15 03:01:51
Martel732 wrote: When I army swapped with Tau, I won most of my CCs. It's pretty easy for a Ritpide to step on two DC or four tac marines.
Yeah eventually lol. On average you will kill 1 per turn. I would gladly have 4 of my tac marines tie up a riptide for several turns lol
The tac marines only lasted two assault phases, so I didn't even miss a shooting phase with the Riptide.
Again, that was from your experience. But on average, only 1 would die per turn. Tying up a 225 point model with less than 60 points of models for the majority of the game is well worth it
WS2 and 3 attacks at I2 is terrible, even with Str 6 AP2
That is funny...cause if you just make that WS3 you just described Tyranid MCs...
Just saying, just because the Riptide doesn't compete with a Dreadknight, doesn't mean it is completely worthelss in CC. Tac Marines are actually one of the best things to tie a Riptide up in CC with because ATSKNF is amazing at just keeping it in place stepping on a marine or two for a couple of turns...but seriously, if Tac Marines get into CC with a Riptide the Tau player has failed at some point or all the marine player has left are Tac Marines, so it isn't really a loss.
EDIT: Just to give an idea;
A Trygon has WS3 S6 I4 5A 3+, Riptide has WS2 S6 I2 3A 2+/5++(5+++)
Against each other, Trygon will win in CC more than likely, but against Tac Marines the Trygon is more likely to die to Krak Grenades and is only doing on average 3 wounds to the Riptides 1.5 wounds. Is this acceptable when you compare what is supposed to be a CCMC vs a pure ranged MC? You are going to get a hell of a lot more mileage out of the Riptide lobbing pie plates and cleaning up small units on the charge than you are with the Trygon and the Trygon cost more points. This becomes less favorable if you compare it to other Tyranid MCs....
EDIT:
Also, just going back to an old point. Are people seriously suggesting that you pin a Riptide? I suggest you go take a look at the rules again...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/15 03:12:49
Martel732 wrote: The sad part is that the Riptide is almost as a good as a dreadknight against Tac marines.
Why is that a "sad part". Dread knight with both a Heavy Psycannon and a Heavy Incinerator has just as much damage output (if not more) than a riptide in shooting and costs less points. Its not meant to be amazing at CC either
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/15 03:14:46
Martel732 wrote: The sad part is that the Riptide is almost as a good as a dreadknight against Tac marines.
Why is that a "sad part". Dread knight with both a Heavy Psycannon and a Heavy Incinerator has just as much damage output (if not more) than a riptide in shooting and costs less points. Its not meant to be amazing at CC either
No, it doesn't. The heavy psycannon and incinerator are far inferior to an IA. The DK basically has to suicide itself to use the incinerator, as well. It's not even remotely as good.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/15 04:48:08
Martel732 wrote: The sad part is that the Riptide is almost as a good as a dreadknight against Tac marines.
Why is that a "sad part". Dread knight with both a Heavy Psycannon and a Heavy Incinerator has just as much damage output (if not more) than a riptide in shooting and costs less points. Its not meant to be amazing at CC either
No, it doesn't. The heavy psycannon and incinerator are far inferior to an IA. The DK basically has to suicide itself to use the incinerator, as well. It's not even remotely as good.
Yeah beg to differ. They are both used for different things and that combo on a dread knight can do serious damage. I have done more damage with my dread knights than I have done with my riptides.
Martel732 wrote: When I army swapped with Tau, I won most of my CCs. It's pretty easy for a Ritpide to step on two DC or four tac marines.
Yeah eventually lol. On average you will kill 1 per turn. I would gladly have 4 of my tac marines tie up a riptide for several turns lol
The tac marines only lasted two assault phases, so I didn't even miss a shooting phase with the Riptide.
Again, that was from your experience. But on average, only 1 would die per turn. Tying up a 225 point model with less than 60 points of models for the majority of the game is well worth it
WS2 and 3 attacks at I2 is terrible, even with Str 6 AP2
That is funny...cause if you just make that WS3 you just described Tyranid MCs...
Just saying, just because the Riptide doesn't compete with a Dreadknight, doesn't mean it is completely worthelss in CC. Tac Marines are actually one of the best things to tie a Riptide up in CC with because ATSKNF is amazing at just keeping it in place stepping on a marine or two for a couple of turns...but seriously, if Tac Marines get into CC with a Riptide the Tau player has failed at some point or all the marine player has left are Tac Marines, so it isn't really a loss.
EDIT: Just to give an idea;
A Trygon has WS3 S6 I4 5A 3+, Riptide has WS2 S6 I2 3A 2+/5++(5+++)
Against each other, Trygon will win in CC more than likely, but against Tac Marines the Trygon is more likely to die to Krak Grenades and is only doing on average 3 wounds to the Riptides 1.5 wounds. Is this acceptable when you compare what is supposed to be a CCMC vs a pure ranged MC? You are going to get a hell of a lot more mileage out of the Riptide lobbing pie plates and cleaning up small units on the charge than you are with the Trygon and the Trygon cost more points. This becomes less favorable if you compare it to other Tyranid MCs....
EDIT:
Also, just going back to an old point. Are people seriously suggesting that you pin a Riptide? I suggest you go take a look at the rules again...
Not to rain on your parade or anything, but a Trygon is Weapon Skill 5 and has 6 Attacks base - 5 on its profile and then plus one for having two close combat weapons for a total of 6 base - so it's actually doing 4 wounds on average to Tactical Marines.
Also, the comparisons between Dreadknights and Riptides are amusing to say the least. Without Markerlight support, a Dreadknight is far and away superior to a Riptide at shooting; a Torrent Strength 6 AP4 template that can be on a model that can do a once-per-game 30" move and will usually be moving 12" is brutal, and 6 Strength 7 AP4 Rending shots are better at tank hunting than the Ion Accelerator too while the optional Strength 7 AP4 Rending Large Blast is nice.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/15 05:28:15
Martel732 wrote: The sad part is that the Riptide is almost as a good as a dreadknight against Tac marines.
Why is that a "sad part". Dread knight with both a Heavy Psycannon and a Heavy Incinerator has just as much damage output (if not more) than a riptide in shooting and costs less points. Its not meant to be amazing at CC either
No, it doesn't. The heavy psycannon and incinerator are far inferior to an IA. The DK basically has to suicide itself to use the incinerator, as well. It's not even remotely as good.
Yeah beg to differ. They are both used for different things and that combo on a dread knight can do serious damage. I have done more damage with my dread knights than I have done with my riptides.
I find this incomprehensible since DKs are almost always instantly killed once they are within range. A Riptide gets to fire the entire game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/15 05:27:33
Martel732 wrote: The sad part is that the Riptide is almost as a good as a dreadknight against Tac marines.
Why is that a "sad part". Dread knight with both a Heavy Psycannon and a Heavy Incinerator has just as much damage output (if not more) than a riptide in shooting and costs less points. Its not meant to be amazing at CC either
No, it doesn't. The heavy psycannon and incinerator are far inferior to an IA. The DK basically has to suicide itself to use the incinerator, as well. It's not even remotely as good.
Yeah beg to differ. They are both used for different things and that combo on a dread knight can do serious damage. I have done more damage with my dread knights than I have done with my riptides.
I find this incomprehensible since DKs are almost always instantly killed once they are within range. A Riptide gets to fire the entire game.
The effective range of a Torrent weapon is 20" before accounting for movement. The Heavy Psycannon has a 24" range. A Dreadknight can very easily give itself a 4+ invulnerable save due to Sanctuary. Your point was?
Martel732 wrote: When I army swapped with Tau, I won most of my CCs. It's pretty easy for a Ritpide to step on two DC or four tac marines.
Yeah eventually lol. On average you will kill 1 per turn. I would gladly have 4 of my tac marines tie up a riptide for several turns lol
The tac marines only lasted two assault phases, so I didn't even miss a shooting phase with the Riptide.
Again, that was from your experience. But on average, only 1 would die per turn. Tying up a 225 point model with less than 60 points of models for the majority of the game is well worth it
WS2 and 3 attacks at I2 is terrible, even with Str 6 AP2
That is funny...cause if you just make that WS3 you just described Tyranid MCs...
Just saying, just because the Riptide doesn't compete with a Dreadknight, doesn't mean it is completely worthelss in CC. Tac Marines are actually one of the best things to tie a Riptide up in CC with because ATSKNF is amazing at just keeping it in place stepping on a marine or two for a couple of turns...but seriously, if Tac Marines get into CC with a Riptide the Tau player has failed at some point or all the marine player has left are Tac Marines, so it isn't really a loss.
EDIT: Just to give an idea;
A Trygon has WS3 S6 I4 5A 3+, Riptide has WS2 S6 I2 3A 2+/5++(5+++)
Against each other, Trygon will win in CC more than likely, but against Tac Marines the Trygon is more likely to die to Krak Grenades and is only doing on average 3 wounds to the Riptides 1.5 wounds. Is this acceptable when you compare what is supposed to be a CCMC vs a pure ranged MC? You are going to get a hell of a lot more mileage out of the Riptide lobbing pie plates and cleaning up small units on the charge than you are with the Trygon and the Trygon cost more points. This becomes less favorable if you compare it to other Tyranid MCs....
EDIT:
Also, just going back to an old point. Are people seriously suggesting that you pin a Riptide? I suggest you go take a look at the rules again...
Not to rain on your parade or anything, but a Trygon is Weapon Skill 5 and has 6 Attacks base - 5 on its profile and then plus one for having two close combat weapons for a total of 6 base - so it's actually doing 4 wounds on average to Tactical Marines.
Also, the comparisons between Dreadknights and Riptides are amusing to say the least. Without Markerlight support, a Dreadknight is far and away superior to a Riptide at shooting; a Torrent Strength 6 AP4 template that can be on a model that can do a once-per-game 30" move and will usually be moving 12" is brutal, and 6 Strength 7 AP4 Rending shots are better at tank hunting than the Ion Accelerator too while the optional Strength 7 AP4 Rending Large Blast is nice.
It's not superior because it usually dies after one turn of shooting.
Martel732 wrote: The sad part is that the Riptide is almost as a good as a dreadknight against Tac marines.
Why is that a "sad part". Dread knight with both a Heavy Psycannon and a Heavy Incinerator has just as much damage output (if not more) than a riptide in shooting and costs less points. Its not meant to be amazing at CC either
No, it doesn't. The heavy psycannon and incinerator are far inferior to an IA. The DK basically has to suicide itself to use the incinerator, as well. It's not even remotely as good.
Yeah beg to differ. They are both used for different things and that combo on a dread knight can do serious damage. I have done more damage with my dread knights than I have done with my riptides.
I find this incomprehensible since DKs are almost always instantly killed once they are within range. A Riptide gets to fire the entire game.
The effective range of a Torrent weapon is 20" before accounting for movement. The Heavy Psycannon has a 24" range. A Dreadknight can very easily give itself a 4+ invulnerable save due to Sanctuary. Your point was?
That's way too close to grav.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/15 05:31:07
How is this thread still going on? It's clear that the people who hate the riptides are going to keep complaining about it until its nerfed to utter uselessness and the people defending it are not going to change their stance on it.
Also the Dreadknight is superior to the Riptide if the Riptide has no supporting units or marker lights, but it won't matter because as usual the Riptide is invincible and nothing can beat it except for God himself. Time to end this pointless discussion that's not going to solve anything.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/15 07:10:45
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The Dreadknight is never superior because it has to move into range of every AP 2 weapon in the game to do anything. A small detail that the Tau posters always ignore. It's incredibly important.
Effective range is also why the scatterlaser is amazeballs and the shuriken cannon is just okay.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/15 07:13:49
If you move forward smartly you don't have to worry about taking as much incoming fire a point that is often ignored as well. And from several claims already it apparently seems that you play an infinitely long table boards since for some reason you can't seem to catch a monstrous creature who only moves 6 inches with an additional random movement on an enormous base. Not going to matter though because once again you will claim that it is all superior in every single category and is utterly undefeatable ect.....
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/15 07:19:13
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gmaleron wrote: If you move forward smartly you don't have to worry about taking as much incoming fire a point that is often ignored as well. And from several claims already it apparently seems that you play an infinitely long table boards since for some reason you can't seem to catch a monstrous creature who only moves 6 inches with an additional random movement on an enormous base. Not going to matter though because once again you will claim that it is all superior in every single category and is utterly undefeatable ect.....
Can it fire from 60" or not? That's the only stat that ends up mattering, because the few weapons that reach that far will never kill a Riptide. Grav and the like have to get past the Kroot, firewarriors, missilesides, and now the horridly OP Stormsurge. It's often suicide to get close enough to do any of these "counters".
If you deepstrike something close, the Tau kill it with interceptor or on their turn.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/15 07:22:01
gmaleron wrote: If you move forward smartly you don't have to worry about taking as much incoming fire a point that is often ignored as well. And from several claims already it apparently seems that you play an infinitely long table boards since for some reason you can't seem to catch a monstrous creature who only moves 6 inches with an additional random movement on an enormous base. Not going to matter though because once again you will claim that it is all superior in every single category and is utterly undefeatable ect.....
Can it fire from 60" or not? That's the only stat that ends up mattering, because the few weapons that reach that far will never kill a Riptide. Grav and the like have to get past the Kroot, firewarriors, missilesides, and now the horridly OP Stormsurge. It's often suicide to get close enough to do any of these "counters".
If you deepstrike something close, the Tau kill it with interceptor or on their turn.
60" is great if there's nothing within charge distance. Hehehe.
Sadly, that isn't what's going to happen for very long. Fun while it lasts though.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Can it fire from 60" or not? That's the only stat that ends up mattering, because the few weapons that reach that far will never kill a Riptide. Grav and the like have to get past the Kroot, firewarriors, missilesides, and now the horridly OP Stormsurge. It's often suicide to get close enough to do any of these "counters".
If you deepstrike something close, the Tau kill it with interceptor or on their turn.
First of all if you're playing on a table where the Riptide can use its max range of 60 inches maybe that's your problem to begin with? And I refuse to believe the argument that the Riptide is always out of range especially on a standard 6 X 4 gaming table so the argument of a 60 inch range is pointless unless you happen to roll the long deployment specific mission. And guess what you can still shoot over said units to get at the Riptide it's not impossible and that is why you deep strike as close as you possibly can or to your opponent's units. You will be surprised how often a Tau player will not intercept if you are a literally an inch away from some of their forces they do not want to risk the scatter.
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Can it fire from 60" or not? That's the only stat that ends up mattering, because the few weapons that reach that far will never kill a Riptide. Grav and the like have to get past the Kroot, firewarriors, missilesides, and now the horridly OP Stormsurge. It's often suicide to get close enough to do any of these "counters".
If you deepstrike something close, the Tau kill it with interceptor or on their turn.
First of all if you're playing on a table where the Riptide can use its max range of 60 inches maybe that's your problem to begin with? And I refuse to believe the argument that the Riptide is always out of range especially on a standard 6 X 4 gaming table so the argument of a 60 inch range is pointless unless you happen to roll the long deployment specific mission. And guess what you can still shoot over said units to get at the Riptide it's not impossible and that is why you deep strike as close as you possibly can or to your opponent's units. You will be surprised how often a Tau player will not intercept if you are a literally an inch away from some of their forces they do not want to risk the scatter.
They just intercept with non-blast weapons, like HYMP. It's one of the most frustrating experiences in the game. And then you lose the assault because you've got 2 marines vs 50 Tau.
The Riptide might be in range of 48" guns, but there are no 48" guns that can effectively engage a Riptide. It takes way more lascannon shots than an IoM list will ever get off before they are tabled.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/15 07:36:27
The Riptide is in range of 24 inch guns as well on the first turn it's not impossible at all. Also the Riptide does not have access to the HYMP you are banking on your opponent potentially having broadsides in this argument, even then it's not impossible.
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gmaleron wrote: The Riptide is in range of 24 inch guns as well on the first turn it's not impossible at all. Also the Riptide does not have access to the HYMP you are banking on your opponent potentially having broadsides in this argument, even then it's not impossible.
They always have HYMP missile sides. Tau players are silly not to bring those. If I had a unit half as good, I'd always use it, too. The stupid part is that they usually don't even need interceptor. My guys come in with pods or deep strike, and stand around a turn looking idiotic. Yeah, they can shoot, but it's not shooting that matters. And then they all die. So regular shooting works well.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/15 07:42:32
Maybe in your local metal but I don't play with broadsides as I'd rather be mobile then static so you are still banking on your opponent always bringing broadsides (HYMP is a no-brainer loadout for them). Even then it's not impossible to weather the storm of fire, and you're also banking on them taking interceptor as their support system. And if they are such a threat I would imagine you would target them when you would come in as you would have a whole turn of shooting before they could retaliate, that comes with target priority.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/15 07:43:31
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gmaleron wrote: Maybe in your local metal but I don't play with broadsides as I'd rather be mobile then static so you are still banking on your opponent always bringing broadsides (HYMP is a no-brainer loadout for them). Even then it's not impossible to weather the storm of fire, and you're also banking on them taking interceptor as their support system.
Yeah, it's pretty much impossible. Tau can remove 1,200 pts of BA in one turn of shooting. I've watched them do it. That's 2/3 of my list gone in one turn. Before overwatch. Even Eldar at least have to come step on me with WK to make that happen.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/15 07:44:16
2500 
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