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 pumaman1 wrote:

Median Trace wrote:

3.) The Riptide is a great unit. Very few people could genuinely argue that it isn't. Personally, I wish they would switch the ranges between the IA and the HBC. But that is because I like the HBC and because it would make it a more attractive choice. It might make the HBC more competitive too if they made the S8AP2 large blast available only with the Nova Charge. But in all fairness, I doubt that is going to happen.

nova is s9ap2 ordinance large blast, overcharge is s8ap2 large blast gets hot, and regular is s7ap2 heavy 3

Why do you like the HBC? 8 s6 ap5 shots, or 12 gets hot s6 ap5 shots rending (with nova charge roll on top to self wound), you'll get hot as often as you'll rend. and s6 isn't a terribly useful strength when you have ready access to s7

In the riptide wing, I actually prefer the HBC. Rerolling nova charges means you will be far less likely to fail and you will get the nova charged version of the HBC (12 S6 AP4 shots with rending). Thats 10 hits at BS5 and almost 2 rends. Thats amazing for taking out armor or MC. IA is better at taking out groups of 2+/3+ armor save units

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


Incorrect.
Even with just the 5++ you're looking at 4.07 wounds done, which doesn't kill a Riptide. You aren't allowed to ignore decimals just because you don't like them. With FNP you're looking at 3.06 instead. Why the FNP wasn't purchased I'll never know, as that 35 points basically gives you 2 more wounds for all intents and purposes.

NOW we can look at Bolters. You need an average of 54 Bolters to actually cause a single wound, and that's without FNP again. So you had something happen that was out of the ordinary and you propose it as a way to counter Riptides. To do all of this your opponent does has to be braindead at deployment because a simple counter deployment is easy against anything carrying something like Meltas, especially you're having to use Rhinos.

What I'm allowed to do is point out the obvious... The number of shots stopped mattering when it died. lol.

I didn't have tio ignore decimals (but you did. Its actually 4.19 in this case)) because dice don't HAVE decimals. True story. Its only useful for looking at possibilities, not realities; and it requires infinite games in order to reach that supposed "average" so ultimately I don't know what your point really is.

It happened. I got .81 more wounds than the average but that's okay. Because aagin... it was NEVER going to be 4.19. So what we know is that the odds are... that I will do more than 4 wounds. and that is what happened. And we know that if probability holds, we won't ALWAYS do more than 4. We know that too.

You have got to come to grips with the REALITY. The dice dont have decimals but the odds tell you that the wounds caused are usually greater than 4.

In this case it tells us that its usually 4, and will sometimes, but very rarely, be higher. In most cases, thr Riptide will still be alive.

If the correct average is 4.19 (im not double checking any numbers here) then you can expect 4 wounds, and about every 5th go around you can expect to sneak in a 5th wound on average.

Statistics fail. Anecdotes in no way influence the reality of statistical analysis. In a generalized discussion, personal reality is not really applicable.

Martel732 wrote:
Statistics fail. Anecdotes in no way influence the reality of statistical analysis. In a generalized discussion, personal reality is not really applicable.

Correct. So you will average more than 4 wounds always.

EDIT: which ceases to be an issue once the body stops moving.


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 Vaktathi wrote:
In this case it tells us that its usually 4, and will sometimes, but very rarely, be higher. In most cases, thr Riptide will still be alive.

If the correct average is 4.19 (im not double checking any numbers here) then you can expect 4 wounds, and about every 5th go around you can expect to sneak in a 5th wound on average.

No. The average tells us that 4 is too low. But it can only act in absolute numbers. So just ONE unlucky roll is all it takes... in either direction. Thats hardly an odd thing to see in a game.

Plus you're essentially trying to argue the Riptide back to life. that's not going to happen.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Statistics fail. Anecdotes in no way influence the reality of statistical analysis. In a generalized discussion, personal reality is not really applicable.

Correct. So you will average more than 4 wounds always.

EDIT: which ceases to be an issue once the body stops moving.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
In this case it tells us that its usually 4, and will sometimes, but very rarely, be higher. In most cases, thr Riptide will still be alive.

If the correct average is 4.19 (im not double checking any numbers here) then you can expect 4 wounds, and about every 5th go around you can expect to sneak in a 5th wound on average.

No. The average tells us that 4 is too low. But it can only act in absolute numbers. So just ONE unlucky roll is all it takes... in either direction. Thats hardly an odd thing to see in a game.

Plus you're essentially trying to argue the Riptide back to life. that's not going to happen.

yes...one lucky roll is all it takes..but that goes both ways, and for basically anythjng. You cannot rely on that however.

On average you're looking at 4 wounds. The riptide will survive *most* of the time. Occasionally, you'll get that 5th, significantly more often than you'll only get three, but the average is telling you that you should expect 4 wounds, not 5, the overwhelmingly vast majority of the time. That is exactly what that average is telling you.

Expecting to kill the riptide that way routinely and on an average roll, is incorrect. It will be an exception.

Yip. So most of the time you count on more than 4. It takes one die in... 7? Yeah. One in 7 has to go the wrong way. not bad. dont stress over it. The victory was so complete that this hardly matters.

It is provided for your information. The take away you might get here is that killing all the Riptides doesn't need to be the goal.

Other take away: it is as i said: saturate and then punch the Tau Empire in the face.

Most of the time, you should be expecting 4, not more than 4. The 4.19 average means that, on average you'll do 4 and every 5th iteration or so of the scenario you can expect a 5th wound to sneak in. If you're counting on doing more than 4 wounds as a matter of course, you're doing to get bit back a majority of the time.

4.19 average wounds is not going to equal a dead riptide most of the time, you'd need an average above 4.5 for that. Sometimes you will get that extra wound, but usually you will not, and must plan and play accordingly.

I get that you're saying that you don't always need to kill the riptide, and that's potentially true in many instances, and that's a fair point to make, but the main thing I'm taking issue with is the assertion that counting on that riptide being dead after one such fusillade is erroneous.

Vaktathi, I sincerely admire your effort to argue against Jancoran and explain where you're coming from but he has shown, emphatically, that he won't listen to any opinion but his own.

Trying to convince him of something other than his own opinion or show him the errors of his thought process is akin to trying to move an ocean with a teacup. I.E. find something more productive to do with your time.

That said, Riptides are point for point one of the most durable Monstrous Creatures in the game. For me, the 'trick' I'm leaning toward trying is to drop pod some kind of Librarian (be it a Librarian Dreadnought in a pod, Librarian in Terminator Armor in a pod attached to a squad, etc) with the Fear of the Darkness power with my Blood Angels. The downside to this are that one, I only get two chances to roll the power on the Sanguinary psychic discipline unless I run two Librarians (Or Mephiston and a Librarian) and have to weather the hail of fire coming in from any potential interceptor. Also, the Librarian and/or squad is going to get picked up next turn. Also, the Tau player can deploy his Riptide(s) forward or jump forward a full 12" if they go first and that renders the Fear of the Darkness trick moot, as they'll fall back and won't hit table edge unless I can get my pods in first before the Tau player moves.

That also doesn't address the fact that many Tau players will have at least a pair of these things on the tabletop, some having as many as three of them.

It's a tough problem to tackle. Of course punching them in melee is always an option but any Tau player worth his salt is going to make sure that if you try to charge any part of their force, you'll get massive amounts of overwatch fire that will potentially blunt the assault all together.

Just offering my thoughts on that. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Jancoran's math is off. 11 Melta shots is 7.333 shots landed, which is 6.111 wounds, which is 4.074 wounds Inflicted, as per Mathhammer's site just so I didn't have to bring out a calculator.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Jancoran's math is off. 11 Melta shots is 7.333 shots landed, which is 6.111 wounds, which is 4.074 wounds Inflicted, as per Mathhammer's site just so I didn't have to bring out a calculator.

My math is right and i already explained that it includes the bolter shots and a Grenade.

I already showed you how many Bolter shots it takes to take a wound off a Riptide. A single Krak will inflict .06 wounds. Don't tout this stuff as effective again please.

 Jancoran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Jancoran's math is off. 11 Melta shots is 7.333 shots landed, which is 6.111 wounds, which is 4.074 wounds Inflicted, as per Mathhammer's site just so I didn't have to bring out a calculator.

My math is right and i already explained that it includes the bolter shots and a Grenade.

Show your work then?

T:6, with a 2+/5++ and Feel no Pain on top of it (more often than not, they're going to have this ugrade) giving a further 5+ save once a save is failed mean that it will take an EXORBITANT amount of firepower to kill a Riptide. And that's in the open. If it's in cover, then the numbers get even higher.

Offering Melta as a viable way to kill a Riptide is... Laughable?... No that's not the right word.. Stupid? .... No, still not right...

Ignorant! That's the word.

Only a literal handful of units (Squads or Vehicles) in the game have any way to bring more than two to three melta shots to bear on a target and that's usually within 12" of the target and at a pretty sizable points investment to boot when you factor in the cost of a transport to get the squad and their melta weaponry in close enough to actually do the work.

Please stop perpetuating this as a viable way to deal with something like a riptide. It'll hurt it, sure, and it may even kill one every so often, but that doesn't make it good, or viable.

Just my thoughts on that. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 pumaman1 wrote:

Median Trace wrote:

3.) The Riptide is a great unit. Very few people could genuinely argue that it isn't. Personally, I wish they would switch the ranges between the IA and the HBC. But that is because I like the HBC and because it would make it a more attractive choice. It might make the HBC more competitive too if they made the S8AP2 large blast available only with the Nova Charge. But in all fairness, I doubt that is going to happen.

nova is s9ap2 ordinance large blast, overcharge is s8ap2 large blast gets hot, and regular is s7ap2 heavy 3

Why do you like the HBC? 8 s6 ap5 shots, or 12 gets hot s6 ap5 shots rending (with nova charge roll on top to self wound), you'll get hot as often as you'll rend. and s6 isn't a terribly useful strength when you have ready access to s7

The HBC has much higher damage output when nova'd than the IA, unless the latter is fired into a tightly packed group (or maybe an AV14 vehicle -- haven't done the math on that).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why the FNP wasn't purchased I'll never know, as that 35 points basically gives you 2 more wounds for all intents and purposes.

Because it costs 35pts that could be spent on offense elsewhere, it costs a support system slot with desired utility like VT, it won't save a Riptide from D-weapons or ID, it's more points lost when locked in combat and swept, it doesn't protect against LD warfare, and it doesn't protect against certain debuffs. It's good but not an auto-take, and in fact neither of the top LVO Tau finishers used it either.

 Red__Thirst wrote:
T:6, with a 2+/5++ and Feel no Pain on top of it (more often than not, they're going to have this ugrade) giving a further 5+ save once a save is failed mean that it will take an EXORBITANT amount of firepower to kill a Riptide. And that's in the open. If it's in cover, then the numbers get even higher.

...

Only a literal handful of units (Squads or Vehicles) in the game have any way to bring more than two to three melta shots to bear on a target and that's usually within 12" of the target and at a pretty sizable points investment to boot when you factor in the cost of a transport to get the squad and their melta weaponry in close enough to actually do the work.

That wasn't the situation, though. Jancoran was fighting a Riptide without FNP, which I'm sure affected the choice to attack it. He had some of the best Melta output in the game on some of the best platforms. Sisters have exorbitant firepower, he took some low percentage shots and it paid off. He can afford to do that, because Riptide damage is blunted when shooting at a 35hp Rhino. It's not that hard to follow.

It's not an answer to Riptides. It's just information. Most armies won't find it simple to produce double digits of Melta on T1, that aren't subject to Interceptor and potentially Ignore Cover. So all you can do is ask :

- why did it work ;
- is it replicable ;
- can it work in a different army.

I don't see this working on BA but the information is still useful, even if it was an above average shooting round.


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 Vaktathi wrote:
In this case it tells us that its usually 4, and will sometimes, but very rarely, be higher. In most cases, thr Riptide will still be alive.

If the correct average is 4.19 (im not double checking any numbers here) then you can expect 4 wounds, and about every 5th go around you can expect to sneak in a 5th wound on average.

Wouldn't it be in every 5 rolls, there would be one wound.

But that doesn't mean the wound won't be in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th position, right?

Yoyoyo wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why the FNP wasn't purchased I'll never know, as that 35 points basically gives you 2 more wounds for all intents and purposes.

Because it costs 35pts that could be spent on offense elsewhere, it costs a support system slot with desired utility like VT, it won't save a Riptide from D-weapons or ID, it's more points lost when locked in combat and swept, it doesn't protect against LD warfare, and it doesn't protect against certain debuffs. It's good but not an auto-take, and in fact neither of the top LVO Tau finishers used it either.

While that's true, the other Tau lists did take it.
What's more worrying to me is that nearly every tau list took a Riptide Wing, and we are arguing if its too good or not I believe the reason FnP wasn't taken is due to the Riptide wing, which prevents the Nova Reactor problem from happening. It's always been a big reason to take it, since it's nearly guaranteed to save 1 wound a game between shooting and the reactor.
Interceptor was also commonly taken. Should we assume that every riptide is going to be in a wing, have interceptor, and half the time have FnP? If you are trying to convince everyone the riptide is not OP, starting from how it is seen in the LVO doesn't help your argument. The formation it gets is easily one of the best in the game, and the Triptide wasn't exactly rare before.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:
T:6, with a 2+/5++ and Feel no Pain on top of it (more often than not, they're going to have this ugrade) giving a further 5+ save once a save is failed mean that it will take an EXORBITANT amount of firepower to kill a Riptide. And that's in the open. If it's in cover, then the numbers get even higher.
...
Only a literal handful of units (Squads or Vehicles) in the game have any way to bring more than two to three melta shots to bear on a target and that's usually within 12" of the target and at a pretty sizable points investment to boot when you factor in the cost of a transport to get the squad and their melta weaponry in close enough to actually do the work.

That wasn't the situation, though. Jancoran was fighting a Riptide without FNP, which I'm sure affected the choice to attack it. He had some of the best Melta output in the game on some of the best platforms. Sisters have exorbitant firepower, he took some low percentage shots and it paid off. He can afford to do that, because Riptide damage is blunted when shooting at a 35hp Rhino. It's not that hard to follow.

It's not an answer to Riptides. It's just information. Most armies won't find it simple to produce double digits of Melta on T1, that aren't subject to Interceptor and potentially Ignore Cover. So all you can do is ask :
- why did it work ;
- is it replicable ;
- can it work in a different army.

I don't see this working on BA but the information is still useful, even if it was an above average shooting round.

Well, for the most part, it worked because Sisters are unique in how they spam melta and can get up the board so quickly without interceptor being an issue and have Ignores cover. Off hand, I can't think of a unit that can manage all 3 in another unit outside of grav cents, who still can't ignore cover but can remove a riptide turn 1 and not worry about interceptor too much.
I'm not sure what the rest of Jan's opponent was fielding, but I've never seen Tau struggle with rhinos. Str 5 base guns, certain formations, broadsides, and crisis suits are all adept at destroying rhinos easily. This might be different for the gladius strike force, but an army coming in two waves like sisters tend to be a lot easier to manage, imo. But my experience with sisters is limited, but I imagine a rhino is a rhino. A unit doesn't have to be effective against every target after all, as long as its a decent majority and the other units can shore up the weakness, its fine.

As for it being repeatable...I don't think so, not often anyway. It was already shown that it requires FnP not being taken (so looking at the LVO, roughly a 50% chance, maybe less), the Riptide being in melta range of a units, and rolling above average. The last factor surely makes it not likely to have a repeat showing.

The other issue is that it destroyed only 1 Riptide and left the sister vulnerable after. There were 2 more, I believe...it's not a true BR so its a bit hard to follow, that were not killed and seemed to be one of the last units left standing. Doesn't this also speak to their toughness?

We can also say Jan's experience doesn't reflect what is seen at the LVO, unless his opponent also used a Riptide wing formation (they did take 3, but I'm not sure if they did). The increase to their toughness and firepower the formation grants is a little absurd.

Yoyoyo wrote:

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 Vaktathi wrote:
In this case it tells us that its usually 4, and will sometimes, but very rarely, be higher. In most cases, thr Riptide will still be alive.

If the correct average is 4.19 (im not double checking any numbers here) then you can expect 4 wounds, and about every 5th go around you can expect to sneak in a 5th wound on average.

Wouldn't it be in every 5 rolls, there would be one wound.

But that doesn't mean the wound won't be in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th position, right?

Correct. However, that does mean you'd have to fire it 5 times to see a 5th wound on average. Seeing it on the first or second try is still low odds, <50%, so shouldn't be relied on. Keep in mind that even an average of 5 doesn't mean you'll always do five, as I'm sure we've all seen. It just means there are good odds that you'll do five wounds.

What we do on the forums is a kind of "bastard stats", because it's very very simple to do. We don't include standard deviation, which with this set up is probably pretty big being so few dice, we don't include a real probability of getting +/-1, and we don't look at what the numbers are telling us too closely.
Instead it's more of a loose way of looking at it that backs up an argument, since a lot of times someone's gut feeling is way off base, like we've seen in many threads before. It also serves as a way to validate anecdotal evidence.

So a 4.19 means, basically, You have a good chance to cause 4 wounds, a low chance to cause 5 wounds, a very low chance to cause 3, and an extremely low chance to cause 6 or 2. It doesn't mean "over 4 wounds, round up to 5".


I think Jan's original point that bringing a Riptide down to 1 wound makes it a lot weaker since, especially without FnP, it would be afraid to Nova. Riptides want to Nova.
However, looking at the LVO lists and how common the Wing is, I don't think this point applies any longer. Even at 1 wound, the Riptide is free to Nova quite a bit, and with the other bonuses the firepower will be very impressive.

"I don't see this working on BA "

Of course.

Akiasura wrote:
Should we assume that every riptide is going to be in a wing, have interceptor, and half the time have FnP? If you are trying to convince everyone the riptide is not OP, starting from how it is seen in the LVO doesn't help your argument. The formation it gets is easily one of the best in the game, and the Triptide wasn't exactly rare before.

Yes. 3/4 of the Tau lists in the Top 50 played Riptide Wing, the other list included 2 Riptides anyway (with one being the FW Yvahra). A lot of FNP showed up in the other 2x lists when there wasn't a VT or TL that took priority. So, accurate assumption this time Aki. It's a top-tier unit and the formation itself dominated Tau list construction.

Trying to take on Formations/Detachments with CAD units is a lost cause, that's another lesson here. Nobody fielded large amounts of CAD units unless they wanted a specific choice that's otherwise inaccessible.

Martel732 wrote:
"I don't see this working on BA "

Of course.

FYI Martel, I was looking at the top 50, BA show up (barely) at 21st place as allies to a GK primary. This is what adapting to a competitive Meta looks like I guess, there are something like 14 units and 8 of them are rocking Force Weapons, along with 17WC.

CAD:
Grey Knights Librarian, ML3, book, Hammer, SB
10 purifiers, 4 Incinerators, 1 Hammer
10 purifiers, 4 Incinerators, 1 Hammer
5 Strike, 1 Hammer

Blood Angels CAD:
Meph
5x Tactical in Drop Pod, w/Melta/Combi-Melta
5x Tactical in Drop Pod, w/Melta/Combi-Melta
5x Tactical in Drop Pod, w/Melta/Combi-Melta

Ultramarine Librarious Conclave:
Varro Tigurius
Librarian, ML2, Axe
Librarian, ML2, Sword

You must have left out 2 fast attack drop pods in that CAD for those purifier units. Podding purifiers can be extremely destructive.

Might be. I did a copy-paste from Tinkrr's database, and cleaned up the formatting a little.

You'd have to add up the points to be sure.

So, to summarize, if the way competitive players run Riptides is in the wing formation, we can all agree that they are OP?

Against what?

Decurion, Aspect Host, War Convocation, Gladius, RW super-friends?

Or CAD Blood Angels, IG, and CSM without allies?

It's kind of a perspective thing.

Aaand we are back to "OP at 7.0 level, just fine at 7.5 level."

Yoyoyo wrote:
Against what?

Decurion, Aspect Host, War Convocation, Gladius, RW super-friends?

Or CAD Blood Angels, IG, and CSM without allies?

It's kind of a perspective thing.

Against the vast list of options available of course. Like ever discussion revolving around if a model is worth taking.

It's hard to think of many examples of lists the riptide wing struggles against (gladius? Any others?). It offers a ton of benefits and the riptide is a model with a range of applications.

Well, it's not so hot against a Warhound Titan, right?

Akiasura wrote:

What's more worrying to me is that nearly every tau list took a Riptide Wing, and we are arguing if its too good or not I believe the reason FnP wasn't taken is due to the Riptide wing, which prevents the Nova Reactor problem from happening. It's always been a big reason to take it, since it's nearly guaranteed to save 1 wound a game between shooting and the reactor.
Interceptor was also commonly taken. Should we assume that every riptide is going to be in a wing, have interceptor, and half the time have FnP? If you are trying to convince everyone the riptide is not OP, starting from how it is seen in the LVO doesn't help your argument. The formation it gets is easily one of the best in the game, and the Triptide wasn't exactly rare before.

You know why thats the case? Because ITC nerfed the other competitive options in the codex (When I say competitive I mean top level LVO play). You would have seen some lists with the hunter contingent if ITC hadn't nerfed it. You would have seen more Optimized Stealth Cadres if ITC hadn't nerfed it at the last second. You may have even seen a piranha wing if ITC hadn't nerfed it.

You don't like that everyone uses riptides/riptides wings? Blame ITC

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I already showed you how many Bolter shots it takes to take a wound off a Riptide. A single Krak will inflict .06 wounds. Don't tout this stuff as effective again please.

Again, intentionally NOT listening. i was correcting your math to account for them. Not making a statement about them.

Why DO you even participate if you can't keep up? Just to antagonize or what?

Akiasura wrote:

Well, for the most part, it worked because Sisters are unique in how they spam melta and can get up the board so quickly without interceptor being an issue and have Ignores cover. Off hand, I can't think of a unit that can manage all 3 in another unit outside of grav cents, who still can't ignore cover but can remove a riptide turn 1 and not worry about interceptor too much.
I'm not sure what the rest of Jan's opponent was fielding, but I've never seen Tau struggle with rhinos. Str 5 base guns, certain formations, broadsides, and crisis suits are all adept at destroying rhinos easily. This might be different for the gladius strike force, but an army coming in two waves like sisters tend to be a lot easier to manage, imo. But my experience with sisters is limited, but I imagine a rhino is a rhino. A unit doesn't have to be effective against every target after all, as long as its a decent majority and the other units can shore up the weakness, its fine.

As for it being repeatable...I don't think so, not often anyway. It was already shown that it requires FnP not being taken (so looking at the LVO, roughly a 50% chance, maybe less), the Riptide being in melta range of a units, and rolling above average. The last factor surely makes it not likely to have a repeat showing.

The other issue is that it destroyed only 1 Riptide and left the sister vulnerable after. There were 2 more, I believe...it's not a true BR so its a bit hard to follow, that were not killed and seemed to be one of the last units left standing. Doesn't this also speak to their toughness?

We can also say Jan's experience doesn't reflect what is seen at the LVO, unless his opponent also used a Riptide wing formation (they did take 3, but I'm not sure if they did). The increase to their toughness and firepower the formation grants is a little absurd.

Yoyoyo wrote:

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 Vaktathi wrote:
In this case it tells us that its usually 4, and will sometimes, but very rarely, be higher. In most cases, thr Riptide will still be alive.

If the correct average is 4.19 (im not double checking any numbers here) then you can expect 4 wounds, and about every 5th go around you can expect to sneak in a 5th wound on average.

Wouldn't it be in every 5 rolls, there would be one wound.

But that doesn't mean the wound won't be in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th position, right?

Correct. However, that does mean you'd have to fire it 5 times to see a 5th wound on average. Seeing it on the first or second try is still low odds, <50%, so shouldn't be relied on. Keep in mind that even an average of 5 doesn't mean you'll always do five, as I'm sure we've all seen. It just means there are good odds that you'll do five wounds.

What we do on the forums is a kind of "bastard stats", because it's very very simple to do. We don't include standard deviation, which with this set up is probably pretty big being so few dice, we don't include a real probability of getting +/-1, and we don't look at what the numbers are telling us too closely.
Instead it's more of a loose way of looking at it that backs up an argument, since a lot of times someone's gut feeling is way off base, like we've seen in many threads before. It also serves as a way to validate anecdotal evidence.

So a 4.19 means, basically, You have a good chance to cause 4 wounds, a low chance to cause 5 wounds, a very low chance to cause 3, and an extremely low chance to cause 6 or 2. It doesn't mean "over 4 wounds, round up to 5".


I think Jan's original point that bringing a Riptide down to 1 wound makes it a lot weaker since, especially without FnP, it would be afraid to Nova. Riptides want to Nova.
However, looking at the LVO lists and how common the Wing is, I don't think this point applies any longer. Even at 1 wound, the Riptide is free to Nova quite a bit, and with the other bonuses the firepower will be very impressive.

let me add perspective:

You say you don't "know too many" that can... then give an example as common as rain. Grav Cents. why would you say one, followed by the other? A lot of armies can bring to bear the weapons needed to nuke the one Riptide. But here is the more important factoid: I din't NEED to kill all the Ripides. because i did what I suggested: saturate and punch. Saturate and punch won this game, not some silly argument over one single dice roll going one way or another.

Second, the Tau (him) didnt "struggle with" my Rhinos. He blew a bunch up, which I mentioned. But they stopped being targets pretty much from round 3 onward (for the most part) because I was at that point punching his face. he had other fish to fry.

Also since you may not know, Our rhinos are not the same as other rhinos. they have a 6+ invul save. Just worthy of note. In fact everything in the army does.

I'm not really disposed to arguing with anyone any longer about the reality that the dice should average more than 4 wounds. Not less. More. there are no decimals on dice. So any one roll that he rolls below average dooms him if I also roll average. This is repeatable because it happens all the time. Average doesnt actually exist. Also: I suppose i could have shot it again if it was that big of a deal. I also could have unloaded more Dominions instead of firing from inside. So all of this fighting over one roll of a die in a Warhammer game is wasted energy, honestly. Again: you cant wish it back to life.

I killed one Riptide but i wasn't left "vulnerable" until round 3. At that point, I used Canoness to make me NOT vulnerable in a meaningful way. YES he killed some more stuff but he couldnt kill the thing that mattered the most.

He was forced to move to save his other two riptides in Round 2 so by the time he super duper fired (and he did eventually) it was a bit late to stop me from becoming entrenched. once entrenched it was all down hill.

This illustrates my point though: saturate and punch their faces. one other note. super duper ripple firing also doesn't do as much when the enemy units are smaller or less expensive as the case may be. MSU works better against Riptide Wing of course. He used it in rounds 3,4 and 5.

It was a good fight. It is worth mentioning, again and a hundred times after: Saturate and punch the Tau Empire.

You can't call grav cents, specifically th star, as common as rain. It's one unit in one codex and you're likely to see only 1-2 total in an army.

If it was plasma, for example, that's pretty common. Str 6 is common as well. But Grav and on a specific unit? Not common, by definition.


The rhino remark was someone else commenting that tides and tau struggled against. A 1/6 invul is nice but not a big deal. It's not beating cover for example.

Yoyoyo, so out of all the options in the game, 2 come to mind? Or a type of list that isn't popular, high av spam?

Yeah, think we can conclude that Riptides in a wing are quite strong.


Edit, jan, did he use the wing formation? Sorry if you mentioned it I couldn't tell.

Akiasura wrote:
You can't call grav cents, specifically th star, as common as rain. It's one unit in one codex and you're likely to see only 1-2 total in an army.

If it was plasma, for example, that's pretty common. Str 6 is common as well. But Grav and on a specific unit? Not common, by definition.


The rhino remark was someone else commenting that tides and tau struggled against. A 1/6 invul is nice but not a big deal. It's not beating cover for example.

Yoyoyo, so out of all the options in the game, 2 come to mind? Or a type of list that isn't popular, high av spam?

Yeah, think we can conclude that Riptides in a wing are quite strong.


Edit, jan, did he use the wing formation? Sorry if you mentioned it I couldn't tell.

Grav Cents are one unit in one codex that itself is common as rain. Lol. and it can be allied in. and frequently is!

I wasn't claiming any greatness for the rhino. I was correcting his thought that the "rhinos are rhinos". the 6+ saved me two (total) hull points during the game which is a big deal sometimes. It can be the difference between ONE riptide trying to kill it vs. one Riptide and Fire Warriors squad for example. Not a big deal on a forum. BIG deal when its an actual battle.

And i think we, none of us, said it wasn't strong. the thread is dedicated to what you can do ABOUT it. I have illustrated one thing you can do about it. I might add, using an army no one thinks much of. I disagree, of course, but thats the common opinion.

So if Martel is willing, then he may see some virtue in what i did and attempt to emulate it in the way his army allows. We understand that he cannot exactly emulate it. Given. But it is one way to skin the cat. So I skinned it.