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 Swampmist wrote:
How do You out speedy obsec a WS Gladius? No seriously, they have more obsec than anyone else, and with scout can be on the midfield holding objectives before anyone else. Fast vehicles are cool, but their not free.

Speed doesnt just come in the literal form of movement.

The scouting Battle company is one of the biggest errors of all time. I wont deny I have a disdain for the Battle company and this combination is indeed why Dropp pods were born. lol. Wont deny that one bit. Having said that I have mostly won my games against them (barely). The key was always having enough obsec (dont even leave home without 4-8 units like that), preserving my strength until needed, and then tying the objectives where needed, and i personally have used Outflanking, infiltrating and Deep Striking EXTENSIVELY in almost every army I play. Like a lot. So in the instances when I must, I can overwhelm a certain sector with firepower.

My goal is to simply use the least amount of effort to tie things and then make the end run count. Now this takes: patience. This takes Obsec. And this takes speed.

In my most "famous" build, nearly the entire army can be deployed in some fashion other than plopping it down. i use two Broadsides as my lures, one to each corner and everything else is playing the waiting game, coming in from all sides and doing what I do.

It is UP HILL. But if I dont have those tools, I am as prone to losing to broken things like Battle Companies as you are. Im not special. I lose sometimes. We asll do. But i try to make sure its not because I never could have won. Dice are a thing too.


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 Swampmist wrote:
Actually, generally people DO play lists made up of only TWC. Its kinda the only big competative build rn.

Well if thats the only one you ever see, you should be fine. their LD suuuuuuucks. attack it. Lol.

There's a difference between TAC "I will beat everyhing" and TAC "I at least have a chance against anything".

The latter was *mostly* possible for *most* armies in previous eras, even if if they were at a disadvantage, but its only possible for a few armies now and they tend to be more that former type. You didnt typically get the one sided buttstomps we often see now with anything near the same regularity.

Asura Varuna wrote:
TAC doesn't exist. TAC hasn't existed for as long as I've played - there's always going to be some sort of lopsided list spamming X or Y that prevents TAC from working. In a lot of cases, codexes simply lack the tools to even consider taking a TAC list, or even tailoring for a specific threat. Perhaps that's poor game design. Perhaps that's a part of the inherent asymmetrical "balance" that makes 40k exciting.

Really though, BA have a lot of tools. Whether it's from their own codex or with their IoM allies they have a suitably diverse toolkit to deal with almost any particular list. (which is more than can be said for armies such as Orks...). However, a TAC list SHOULD NOT be able to beat every specialised list out there. If you load up on AA, you'll lose to ground troops, if you load up on anti tank, you can lose to infantry and vice versa. If you take a small sample of each, you'll likely lose to any of these lopsided lists. That is simply what 40k is.

If there was a list that was truly TAC, that would be completely and utterly gamebreakingly overpowered. (Basically 7.5 Eldar).

I would say this: TAC is not just a list. It's a method of using the list that makes them TAC. In other words, such as in the case of my Night Lords, i am not ideally equipped to handle any specific thing. i win through the tactics the build allows. It is EXTREMELY flexible to the situation. melee? done. Swamping things? Done. Ablation? Done. Board presence? done. Deployment shenanigans? Done. Critical killing ability? done. Obsec? Done. And so on.

Same for any list. In my opinion a TAC list is one that allows you to use tactics to do what the list components may not look ideal for, I know that the infinite terrain, matchups ansd dice rolls you can see played out in 40K (one of the things I love about it) do make planning "the perfect Deathstar to counter all deathstars" impossible. So maybe a TAC list isn't that. Maybe the definition of TAC is the problem.

Martel732 wrote:
There are a ton of downsides to Angel's Fury. Look! TWC! I just lost. Because I've got 3 full tac squads that I'm relying on to punch things.

Well, you could figure out a way for the 800pts left in your list to help punch things, but that wouldn't produce as nearly a melodramatic and futile scenario.

Have you tried using assault squads?

Wait... Blood Angels get those?

Assault squads are one of the worst units in the game. I doubt they'd do it.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Assault squads are one of the worst units in the game. I doubt they'd do it.

Doubt is such a terrible thing. have none. That's my philosophy.

But seriously. Seems like there's a lot of points there to like do stuff.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/679236.page#8460921

Oh look. heres a BR where all 3 riptides are killed turn 2. yeah so invincible

Reading the BR, isn't his list illegal?

Akiasura wrote:
Reading the BR, isn't his list illegal?

That, and he used gravcannons to kill them.

Does BA have gravcannons?

notredameguy10 wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/679236.page#8460921

Oh look. heres a BR where all 3 riptides are killed turn 2. yeah so invincible

I commend you for giving us a link to one of the least detailed battle reports to exist.

I posted a list in the list area trying to use some ideas from the thread.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
Reading the BR, isn't his list illegal?

That, and he used gravcannons to kill them.

Does BA have gravcannons?

They can ally in Grav Cannons. Assuming they CHOOSE ot to I am sure other batreps can be found. This isn't the last on earth.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/679236.page#8460921

Oh look. heres a BR where all 3 riptides are killed turn 2. yeah so invincible

I commend you for giving us a link to one of the least detailed battle reports to exist.

Better than your constant whining and complaining without any merit to back it up whatsoever

...and not the only batrep around.

 Ashiraya wrote:

That, and he used gravcannons to kill them.

Does BA have gravcannons?

No, Blood Angels do not have Grav Cannons or Grav Amps. The only Graviton Weapons in the BA codex are Grav Pistols, Grav Guns, and Combi-Gravs.

I'm getting real sick of the snark I'm seeing in this thread. Certain posters here may want to remember rule one, lest they find themselves with a polite reminder from a mod. You know who you are.

That said, even Grav is not a Garunteed kill versus a Riptide. Especially if it has the FnP upgrade.

My thoughts on that. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Why do people keep going back to the "If I can't kill it in one turn of shooting its invincible" mentality?

Guess what, the riptide won't kill the centurions in one shot either-its not even in the realm of "not a garunteed kill", even with magical infinite markerlights. it will cause some damage, but won't remove the squad. or any other noteworthy unit for that matter (unless you hobble up for some reason with a T4 high-value unit and have no defenses what so ever with it, when it's purely your fault for exposing such weakness.)

If anything could kill anything in one turn, the game would be over REALLY quickly. OTK only happens between units who are vastly different in power scale, or with dedicated hard counter. (aka melta vs tank)



I love it how everything that the "nerf the riptide to hell" guys have to say is how BA can't find a good answer. (especially without changing lists from what they play currently. as if not everyone has to change lists as the meta changes.)
As if in the current situation the BA will be viable at a competitive level even if you remove the riptide, or even the entire tau codex from the game.

Hey now, that's not true.

My Renegades don't really have a great answer in house either. Same for my CSMs. Short of bringing a bunch of allies, which some folks don't want to do for whatever reason (like how I don't want to ally Renegades and CSM because they synergize weirdly from a rules/fluff standpoint.)

Nerfing Riptides won't fix BA, or Renegades, or CSMs, but it will make Tau less broken, and that's all to the good, at the end of the day. Once we have the Riptide in its proper place as an AV13/12/12 walker, we'll move on to other things, like Eldar. Or Eldar. Or Marines.

MIni MIehm wrote:
Hey now, that's not true.

My Renegades don't really have a great answer in house either. Same for my CSMs. Short of bringing a bunch of allies, which some folks don't want to do for whatever reason (like how I don't want to ally Renegades and CSM because they synergize weirdly from a rules/fluff standpoint.)

Nerfing Riptides won't fix BA, or Renegades, or CSMs, but it will make Tau less broken, and that's all to the good, at the end of the day. Once we have the Riptide in its proper place as an AV13/12/12 walker, we'll move on to other things, like Eldar. Or Eldar. Or Marines.

Exactly this, many armies don't have a great answer, including those listed, plus Orks, or Dark Eldar.

That's the rub I think. You can take Mono Tau, no formations, and absolutely wreck a lot of armies out there built with Mono codex and no formations.

I do like the idea of Making a Riptide similar in fashion to an Imperial Knight. Maybe 13 front, 12 side, 10 rear armor superheavy walker with the Heavy Burst Cannon option and a 5+ invulnerable save with upgrades available to help it. Give it the jump-shoot-jump ability it already has, and give it four hull points base, with the 'feel no pain' upgrade giving it a fifth hull point. That still keeps it difficult to kill with good damage output, gives it hammer of wrath, lets it be dangerous in Melee (Stomps) but does allow it to be a bit less tanky, but not a lot less, as you now need to throw something at least ST:7 at it's front arc to hurt it versus at least hoping for the random wound from boltguns.

It'll likely never happen, but a man can dream.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 BoomWolf wrote:
Why do people keep going back to the "If I can't kill it in one turn of shooting its invincible" mentality?

Actually, the goal post set down was 2 turns costing 50% over the points of the riptide, but it has to be the first two turns.
A few things have hit the goal post, melta dominions only slight out of it and grav weapons, but not many things have.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Guess what, the riptide won't kill the centurions in one shot either-its not even in the realm of "not a garunteed kill", even with magical infinite markerlights. it will cause some damage, but won't remove the squad. or any other noteworthy unit for that matter (unless you hobble up for some reason with a T4 high-value unit and have no defenses what so ever with it, when it's purely your fault for exposing such weakness.)

Actually, a centstar is usually "hobbled up" since it's DSing around (the only way it reaches the riptide) and riptides in a wing can fire twice. This is one of the best units to target it, and they can take interceptor to counter as well (though can't fire the blast there).
Even without firing twice, 2 riptides cost less than the star and can cripple it. Cover saves don't help much with marker light support, so the only defense is avoid LoS, which is difficult on such a model, or have good invul saves. Flying also helps.

A large AP 2 blast will hit a decent number of models. The reason IG weapons aren't as good is simply because they don't ignore cover, are easier to remove having obvious counters, are often ap 3 or short ranged, and can't move quickly. The Tau don't suffer from these problems.

 BoomWolf wrote:

If anything could kill anything in one turn, the game would be over REALLY quickly. OTK only happens between units who are vastly different in power scale, or with dedicated hard counter. (aka melta vs tank)

True, it's something you see sometimes in these forums. But not in this thread.
Many of the counters being listed, like Melee and ID, won't stop the riptide until turn 4 with how fast it is and where it's usually found in the army.
4 turns of firing, with the Wing this is 5 turns of shooting, means the Riptide has probably already done it's job. Killing it is nice but most likely no longer important at this point. You need it dead by turn 2.

If it was only a defensive objective holder with mediocre firepower, killing it T4 would be fine.

I don't think the goalpost is unreasonable. There are few units in this game that only have a very small list of units that can reach such a goal post against them (and more often than not it's grav getting them there) and they are universally considered as OP (Centstar, Screamer Star, Wolfstar, WK, Riptide, Wraiths in Decurion)

 BoomWolf wrote:

I love it how everything that the "nerf the riptide to hell" guys have to say is how BA can't find a good answer. (especially without changing lists from what they play currently. as if not everyone has to change lists as the meta changes.)
As if in the current situation the BA will be viable at a competitive level even if you remove the riptide, or even the entire tau codex from the game.

I don't think anyone is saying "nerf the riptide to hell", simply that it's too good for the points. If the blast was AP 3 or 4, or the FnP and Wing formation didn't exist, or if it was a 3+ save, or if it had to nova to get an invul at all...relatively small changes that makes it less lethal or less tough and it would be fine. I play Tau and other armies, I never see a Tau army without a tide.

I mean, it certainly needs to be nerfed. At the LVO, it was in a lot of lists, usually 3 of them, and often in a wing. The only units you see that commonly taken are the broken ones.

notredameguy10 wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/679236.page#8460921

Oh look. heres a BR where all 3 riptides are killed turn 2. yeah so invincible

I could show you mathematically how that army doesn't even have good odds to kill 1 riptide in 2 turns - but then I'd have to do a lot of math. Luck does happen but playing poorly has a lot more do do with losing 2 riptides in 2 turns anyways...you have 72" range and interceptor - you shouldn't even be getting shot at.

BA won't need Grav to kill Riptides... they need a 7.5th style update with special rules and updated costing.

When Vanguard Vets get a detachment bonus for DoA and free Jump Packs, formation bonus for charging from DS with snap shots only, 5pt power weapons, etc, Riptides are not going to look so scary.

A lot of you guys are hung up on trying to turn back the game to 7.0 power levels. GW's design team obviously has a direction they're going. The Riptide won't necessarily be broken by the end of the 7.5 style updates -- it's just a painful transition process, and above all for the armies that are getting updated last.

Yoyoyo wrote:
BA won't need Grav to kill Riptides... they need a 7.5th style update with special rules and updated costing.

When Vanguard Vets get a detachment bonus for DoA and free Jump Packs, formation bonus for charging from DS with snap shots only, 5pt power weapons, etc, Riptides are not going to look so scary.

A lot of you guys are hung up on trying to turn back the game to 7.0 power levels. GW's design team obviously has a direction they're going. The Riptide won't necessarily be broken by the end of the 7.5 style updates -- it's just a painful transition process, and above all for the armies that are getting updated last.

Outside of riptide wing, riptides have been the same for a long time. They are still essentially the same as their 7.0 level - it's safe to say riptides have always been 7.5 level. They are still among the best units in the game for their points. I would even go as far as to say they are the best unit in the game that isn't a LOW - meaning they can be deployed unlimited and cheaply and now with formation bonuses. Or in other words...marines are always going to struggle with them because they are just too good at killing marine units and they have no real efficient counter - even at 7.5 level.

 Xenomancers wrote:
they are just too good at killing marine units and they have no real efficient counter - even at 7.5 level.

I was going to say 'grav' but the only grav weapons which are going to reach them are podded tacticals, skyhammer or Centurionstars (or in pods). The former is ineffective, the medium is horrifically fragile, and the latter is expensive.

Is this still going on? I think it's been made pretty much clear that the people who are anti Riptide are not going to be able to convince the people who are pro Riptide that the Riptide needs to be nerfed, especially to the ridiculous standards some of them are calling for. It's also been shown several times that there are pretty decent counters to the Riptide, even if it has FNP (throw math at it all you want I have seen Grav weapons consistently annihilate my Riptides every time).

Also the big thing people are failing to realize, guess what it's not going to be nerfed anytime soon, better to continue to find ways to beat the thing instead of constantly complaining about it and demanding nerfs because it's not going to happen anytime soon. I really don't understand the constant negativity about issues like this, every single new army has their own ridiculous shenanigans (Grav, free transports, super durable, insanely balance book ect.) Really time to stop complaining it's getting quite old.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Iwas going to say 'grav' but the only grav weapons which are going to reach them are podded tacticals, skyhammer or Centurionstars (or in pods). The former is ineffective, the medium is horrifically fragile, and the latter is expensive.

Don't forget the super cheap troop choices for Mechanicum, for a mere 165pts. You get eighteen 30in range Grav Cannons that can be made twin-linked. Grav is not hard to come by in any Imperial Army.

Tau don't need allies. IoM lists shouldn't, either.

Your personal anecdotes don't negate the math, either. Maybe you just forget to put your toe in cover. I trust math. I don't trust people's anecdotes, Batreps, or L2P arguments.

Tau don't nearly have access to the allies that you do and that is not an argument, demanding that another book cater to what another book lacks, every army is different. I'm actually pretty good about leaving my guys in cover, doesn't change the fact all of this non stop complaining isn't going to solve anything or make the Riptide get nerfed anytime soon.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Or in other words...marines are always going to struggle with them because they are just too good at killing marine units

That's an argument to make protection more important, because Riptides are resistant to alpha strikes. How about a Devastator team with 1x Grav Cannon? In two rounds of shooting with a Signum:

10(5/6)(35/36)(2/3) = 5.4W

So why not just flat out a Rhino into cover on T1, and then blast away for 2 turns? If he has 4+ cover add an Auspex, if he has FNP add another turn of shooting. Meanwhile assault units should be putting simultaneous pressure on the Tau army. How many points are you prepared to devote towards killing a Rhino?

Maybe the problem is less "Riptides are too tough" and more "I don't have enough protection or depth in my army"? Just throwing ideas out there.

Just because the way the riptide wing formations rules are being quoted keeps bothering me. The special 2 turns firing is the Riptide Hailfire rule, and can only be done of the riptide didn't move at all, fires 2ce (and can fire at different targets), and cannot move in the assault phase, and is a 1ce per game ability.
the way its being quoted makes it sound like i can do that every turn. maybe no one intended that, but it reads to me with that implication.