Returning to the game, is it worth it?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**CaoCaoTipper**

Fielding seven land raiders is a really good way to get people to not want to play with you. You'll quickly get a reputation of being "that guy", but yes, unbound is a thing, and hell if you and your opponent are both cool with having a crazy game, you can have some fun fielding lists like that. Just don't do it unannounced is all I'd say.

There are certain rules and consequences to having a army consisting of different factions I believe, unless your going crazy unbound again. Have never tried it myself.

The prices are higher and the value/worth of the quantity of models you get for those prices is debatable. Only you can decide if you think it's worth really. Those start collecting kits are fairly good value though, and I'd recommend those if you're looking for a sizeable chunk of models.

And on the note of their stores declining, yes, GW has been declining slowly in sales as a whole entity for years now. However, there's a large portion of disgruntled players (rightly disgruntled, probably) who'd have you believe that GW is gonna go under any day now, and that's simply not true. They are declining, but they are no where near to making losses as a business, and there's absolutely no reason to panic or worry for a good few years yet.

**Nordicus**

CaoCaoTipper wrote:
And on the note of their stores declining, yes, GW has been declining slowly in sales as a whole entity for years now. However, there's a large portion of disgruntled players (rightly disgruntled, probably) who'd have you believe that GW is gonna go under any day now, and that's simply not true. They are declining, but they are no where near to making losses as a business, and there's absolutely no reason to panic or worry for a good few years yet.

Preach! Couldn't have said it better myself.

In the end it's up to you - Having played for a couple of years, I will say that you have more options in the current game than ever before. Which is both the games biggest strength and biggest weakness, as you require a more coordinated game to have a fun time. It's essential to talking with your opponent about the limits of your game; Is it balls out? Do you allow Superheavies/Gargantuans? Do you allow heavy formations or do you run straight CAD? There are so many options now, that you need this dialogue before you turn up to a game, otherwise it can be a bad experience.

Talk with your opponent and enjoy the game for what it is - And if you do decide to come back, then a hearty welcome to you!

**jreilly89**

DorianGray wrote:
krodarklorr wrote:
All of that is pretty much true, yes.

As far as if it's worth it to get back into the game, it's entirely up to you. The power level has skyrocketed, games can have random objectives every turn, and you have Apoc level creatures running around everywhere. It's not quite the skirmish level game it used to be.

Don't listen to this guy. Retail Stores are on the decline ONLY in the US. In Europe they have more stores than ever. In the US most people buy from online defeating the point of unprofitable retail stores.

40k is better than EVER before - I played in 5th, got back in beginning of 7th and I truly think this is right NOW the golden age of the hobby. The release schedule and new models are better than ever before. Codexes are updated much more regularly and boardgames like Beytral at Clath are great. Specialists Games are coming back. For Warhammer Fantasy and LotR it is over for them but 40k is better than ever and GW's sole money-maker.

40k is now in so many PC games and GW is finally getting them into big box mass retailers in the UK like Legos. The rules are better than EVER before too. 7th is the most strategic and balanced ruleset. The only guys crying are the assaulty only armies like Chaos Space Marines who want the bad old days when Assault was OP.

Retail stores are only having a hard time because GW seemed to cut North America out of it's business plan. A couple years ago they killed a lot of the online retailers discounts, so now the only ways to get it are to buy via Amazon, eBay, or some of the other sites who still carry 40k stuff. IRL LGS' still carry 40k stuff, but usually mark it up about 5-10% as they don't get as much of a discount anymore when they buy it.

It's not necessarily the customers who are killing the Retail stores, it's GW.

**Talys**

I don't know what jreilly89 is talking about. GW trade discount is about 45%. There is a photo, I think, of a GW trade order form in my gallery to prove it.

Given that the vast majority of retailers don't discount 35%-40% as a regular thing, markups are NOT 5-10% as a normal thing.

As an example, a $100 MSRP product may have a street price of 25% off, or $75. Cost is about $55 -- and there are no shipping fees -- leaving the retailer with $20 profit.

That is a 36% markup (55x1.36=74.8) or a 27% margin ($20/$85=.267)

Given that GW products are expensive relative to their historical prices, this leaves plenty of room in real profit dollars per sale for retailers. The only question is whether people buy stuff.

Banning web sales (except GW full MSRP) protects retailers from a price war with razor thin margins and from people buying cheap models from one place to go play somewhere else with facilities -- theoretically.

**Jancoran**

45% is correct on the non special order stuff.

**tneva82**

Jancoran wrote:

2. "Unbound" armies are rare and not allowed at most tournaments and so represent a real small subset of armies you will ever really face. but sure. The game does allow you to play that way. It comes with some disadvantages also but I mean if you waaaaant to and its not a tournament? I guess? No one does it really. Well... almost no one.

Main reason unbound isn't seen at tournaments though is that it's simply lol bad option for tournaments. Tournament armies would actually be LESS powerful if all armies would be required to be strictly unbound with no formations etc. The way formations are it's simply not worth to give up the rule benefits you get. The little taxes are minor compared to free rules...

Unbound caused quite a stir when it was introduced. They haven't dominated even when allowed. And unbound keeps losing it's efficiency as time goes.

**Vaktathi**

Yeah, at this point I would far rather face Unbound sillyness than the absurdities that formations allow.

But then, I'm all for going back to the old FOC, single CAD, no allies, no SH/GC units. After that pretty much all you need to fix is to put RP back to what it used to be in the 2011 Necron Codex (and nerf Wraiths) and roll back the Eldar codex to its 2013 iteration, and we have a much more reasonable (if still far from perfect) game where every army can at least try to compete.

**HoundsofDemos**

yea at this point the abuse you can do via battleforged detachments is much more powerful than any unbound list.

**Martel732**

Don't formations still function in an unbound list?

**Jancoran**

Vaktathi wrote:
Yeah, at this point I would far rather face Unbound sillyness than the absurdities that formations allow.

But then, I'm all for going back to the old FOC, single CAD, no allies, no SH/GC units. After that pretty much all you need to fix is to put RP back to what it used to be in the 2011 Necron Codex (and nerf Wraiths) and roll back the Eldar codex to its 2013 iteration, and we have a much more reasonable (if still far from perfect) game where every army can at least try to compete.

Yes I am a big fan of revisiting the idea of the allowable detachments and how that's done.

**HoundsofDemos**

Martel732 wrote:
Don't formations still function in an unbound list?

Formations do but not detachment bonuses.

So a GSF would get combat doctrines but can't get free transports.

**Grand.Master.Raziel**

It could be worth it. It depends on the players you find in your area. The group I play with have fantastic games with the following house rules.

1: 40% Troops minimum
2: No Allies
3: Psykers can't use power dice from other psykers.

All our games are at least fairly close, and it's not unusual for a game to be extremely close. CSMs and SoBs are competitive in our environment, and it's an environment with Eldar, Tau, and Dark Angels.

Feels weird for me to write a sentence implying Dark Angels are a powerful army.

**HondaDaBest**

Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
Psykers can't use power dice from other psykers.

So I'm guessing the communal warp dice can be used however you want. That sounds like a nice touch. I'll have to play it like that one time.

**Runic**

Odd, I'd say strategic as a term applies to WH40K fully. Balanced obviously not.

**Brennonjw**

I never understood the sheer hate for allies. Is it the fact that tournament players abuse the rules? Why is it so weird for me to back up a marine force with some guardsmen? When an Inquisitor takes the field against daemons, would he really not try and get his hands on some grey knights? Is it really so out there to assume that Tau and Eldar would occasionally team up? I understand that people abuse the rules, but there is no way to avoid that. Even the most well written codex will have some flaw in grammar that people will abuse.

We

There are so many better games out there to choose from. Infinity, frostgrave, war machine, not to mention pre-painted stuff like x-wing, armada, heroclix..I would think long and hard about getting back in. The prices have skyrocketed and the rules are dubious.

If you have $500 to drop just to get started and another 500-1000 to invest in over time then maybe. Ultimately though you need to go with what people play in your area.

**Vaktathi**

Brennonjw wrote:
I never understood the sheer hate for allies. Is it the fact that tournament players abuse the rules? Why is it so weird for me to back up a marine force with some guardsmen? When an Inquisitor takes the field against daemons, would he really not try and get his hands on some grey knights? Is it really so out there to assume that Tau and Eldar would occasionally team up? I understand that people abuse the rules, but there is no way to avoid that. Even the most well written codex will have some flaw in grammar that people will abuse.

In many, if not the overwhelmingly vast majority if cases, the allies rules aren't used for fun and fluffy combinations, theyre used to fill gaps in army design that were there intentionally (e.g. adding heavy cc support to gunlines) or to exploit unintended synergies (e.g. TWC's with BA priests giving them FNP and White Scars Librarians giving them Skilled Rider on top of psychic support), or simply include more powerful, newer stuff.

The Tau/Eldar example is oerfect, I have never seen this done for any reason but raw power because the rules said the player could do so.

**Brennonjw**

We wrote:
There are so many better games out there to choose from. Infinity, frostgrave, war machine, not to mention pre-painted stuff like x-wing, armada, heroclix..I would think long and hard about getting back in. The prices have skyrocketed and the rules are dubious.

If you have $500 to drop just to get started and another 500-1000 to invest in over time then maybe. Ultimately though you need to go with what people play in your area.

better is subjective. Infinity and warmachine are smaller scales, and to be honest, unless you ONLY buy your list, Warmachine is roughly the same cost overall. again, x-wing and armada are great IF you wanna play games in space. The prices are about what you would expect from most hobbies (a few hundred to get started, and then 40-60 every month or 2 afterwords)

Is comparing warhammer to X game you like more on dakka bingo? 'cause it should be.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:
Brennonjw wrote:
I never understood the sheer hate for allies. Is it the fact that tournament players abuse the rules? Why is it so weird for me to back up a marine force with some guardsmen? When an Inquisitor takes the field against daemons, would he really not try and get his hands on some grey knights? Is it really so out there to assume that Tau and Eldar would occasionally team up? I understand that people abuse the rules, but there is no way to avoid that. Even the most well written codex will have some flaw in grammar that people will abuse.
In many, if not the overwhelmingly vast majority if cases, the allies rules aren't used for fun and fluffy combinations, theyre used to fill gaps in army design that were there intentionally (e.g. adding heavy cc support to gunlines) or to exploit unintended synergies (e.g. TWC's with BA priests giving them FNP and White Scars Librarians giving them Skilled Rider on top of psychic support), or simply include more powerful, newer stuff.

The Tau/Eldar example is oerfect, I have never seen this done for any reason but raw power because the rules said the player could do so.

Are you talking about competative games or casual games? out of curiosity.

**Vaktathi**

Either, even in casual games, allies are almost always taken to get access to toys thar otherwise wouldnt be available in my experience.

**EnTyme**

Vaktathi wrote:
Brennonjw wrote:
I never understood the sheer hate for allies. Is it the fact that tournament players abuse the rules? Why is it so weird for me to back up a marine force with some guardsmen? When an Inquisitor takes the field against daemons, would he really not try and get his hands on some grey knights? Is it really so out there to assume that Tau and Eldar would occasionally team up? I understand that people abuse the rules, but there is no way to avoid that. Even the most well written codex will have some flaw in grammar that people will abuse.
In many, if not the overwhelmingly vast majority if cases, the allies rules aren't used for fun and fluffy combinations, theyre used to fill gaps in army design that were there intentionally (e.g. adding heavy cc support to gunlines) or to exploit unintended synergies (e.g. TWC's with BA priests giving them FNP and White Scars Librarians giving them Skilled Rider on top of psychic support), or simply include more powerful, newer stuff.

The Tau/Eldar example is oerfect, I have never seen this done for any reason but raw power because the rules said the player could do so.

A lot of that could be fixed by preventing ICs from joining units from other codices. I fully understand why a Space Wolf would happily fight alongside an Ultramarine, but if feel like if an Ultramarine tried to give a Space Wolf an order, the Wolf would tell him to feth off and go back to his mead.

**Árn_Templar**

Breiss wrote:
Hey Guys,

I got into 40k way back when I was about 12. I played through 3rd, 4th, and 5th edition. But unfortunately, I stopped playing when my local GW, and every GW in the area, closed down and the community was scattered to the wind. I can't quite pinpoint at what exact time I left the game, but as I remember it, the blood angels had just come out, deep striking their land raiders and such, and everyone was pooping their pants over it. I came across my old models and wondered if it would be worth it to get back in to, as I hear things are vastly different from what they used to be. Please let me know if what i have heard is true:

1. There are no more force orgs anymore. You are no longer required to have 1 HQ and 2 Troops as the bedrock of your army. If you want 8 land raiders as your army and that's it, then you can have 8 land raiders and no one can tell you anything. Literally anything goes and it's in the rules.

2. There are no more rules on who you can pair your army with. This means nids can be in the same army as tau, chaos can be in the same army as daemon hunters, and other blasphemous combinations. Or you can have 4 different armies in the same list and it totally flies according to the rules.

3. Things have gotten EVEN MORE expensive. New models that had just been released used to cost $60, and we used to think that was pushing the limit. Now I see some CSM model on a horse and it costs $150 holy S*** balls. Is the rest of the game really that expensive? Is GW still doing the "Introduce new models that are OP so you gotta have em, and we'll price em through the roof" nonsense they used to do, but now to the umpteen degree?

4. GW stores are still on the decline? I keep seeing them disappear, and it looks like there's only 1 left in the entire SF bay area. Am I missing something, or is the business continuing to fall off the radar?

Thanks for all your insight guys, it's been such a long time since i've played, and I have some great memories, but I don't know if it would be worth it at this point, especially if all of the above are true.

1. Unbound armies are a thing, but people can just decline to play with you if they don't want to do unbound.

2. See 1.

3. Yup, things are expensive. There are way more expensive hobbies out there, though.

4. I don't know about 'Murica, but GB stores seem to be doing fine, at least where I live.

**hippyjr**

I was basically in the exact same situation as you when I got back into 40k. A few friends started playing for the first time, and after finding out I used to play, they talked me into unboxing my oooold tau army.

Haven't looked back since. More and more of my friends are being corrupte-AHEM, persuaded to give 40k a try - there's now 6 of us last I checked?

If you can get a good group, then hell yeah is it worth it - I found myself to be so much more immersed in the hobby as a whole than I was when I was 12 (and a better painter too

). My tastes haven't changed much either, so had an army to start with

One word of warning - it is a dangerous hobby, by which I mean it can take up faaaaar too much of your time if you let it...

**goblinzz**

Pretty much all the comments above are fair. Unbound I have only ever seen once, and that was when a friend and I just wanted to throw down an ork walker list (stompa/dreads/kans) against Dark Angels just for gak and giggles.

For anyone looking to return to the game, the only real advice I'd give would be to not approach it believing it's the same game you left 5/6/7/8 years ago. The way armies are chosen has completely changed. The top level power units have gone through the roof. It's increasingly hard to show up and get a pick up game as how each fractured little community plays is so different that you can show up, get your poo pushed in, and your opponent can genuinely believe that he's brought a "casual" list,based on what his friends play.

However, there are some things to note. This has never been a cheap hobby. In terms of cost, most other mini companies are comparable, GW doesn't actually charge a premium. However, at the points level that we typically play it you need A LOT of minis. If you have an existing collection, and are willing to drop $500 then you can get back in fairly easily with some newer units to bring you inline with new builds. Please don't assume that you will be able to put down your five year old list and have it perform in the same way. it will most likely get rolled, and you'll end up feeling bitter about it.

However, if you can find some local trading groups, or something like Barter Bucket on FaceBook, then with a little time investment and paint stripper you will be able to pick up some stuff to bulk out your list for cheap. While every community has TFG, I still find this to be a good community, mostly welcoming, and still the most widely played game, although Warmachine, Malifaux and X-wing are not as far behind as they used to be. I'm always keen to welcome people back into the fold, and the first step is probably to reach out to any local communities you have and see when their game nights are.

Best of luck!

**Jancoran**

Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
It could be worth it. It depends on the players you find in your area. The group I play with have fantastic games with the following house rules.

1: 40% Troops minimum
2: No Allies
3: Psykers can't use power dice from other psykers.

All our games are at least fairly close, and it's not unusual for a game to be extremely close. CSMs and SoBs are competitive in our environment, and it's an environment with Eldar, Tau, and Dark Angels.

Feels weird for me to write a sentence implying Dark Angels are a powerful army.

Sisters of Battle, once mastered, are quite a bit better than anyone gives them credit for. I have played them since they were Witch Hunters (best codex so far) and I like the new codex as well. I pretty much have never had a drop off in that regard.

A lot of people here are mentioning cost. I thought I'd point out that EBay is a very legit way to get things. I have saved who knows how much money and never had a deal go south. I deal with people with good ratings and a don't deal with newer accounts just out of caution. So try that.