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Have y'all seen the SkyHammer Annihilation Force Detachment special rules? It is just about the greatest thing I've ever seen for a drop pod army. 2 dropping devastator squads, 2 jump pack assault squads. They come in automatically without rolling (first or second turn, your choice) and don't count towards your drop pod assault total, so you can still drop half of the rest of your drop pods turn one.
The devastators have relentless their first turn and any unit they target has to take a 3D6 leadership test and go to ground if they fail and even if they pass they can't overwatch.
The assault squads can use jump packs in movement and assault phase, and can charge the first turn. And if they charge a unit that went to ground because of the Devs, they reroll to hit and to wound rolls.
Combine this with two dreads dropping in turn 1 and a beefy a$$ HQ rolling up with bikes and rhinos making a firing line seems nearly unstoppable. Why is no one talking about this?

We did all of our talking about it when it came out over half a year ago. We all know how broken it is. Its one of the best formations in the game

 CrownAxe wrote:
We did all of our talking about it when it came out over half a year ago. We all know how broken it is. Its one of the best formations in the game

Lol my bad, I didn't realize it had already been played out, I just happened to skim across it reading a tau thread about how to counter drop pod armies. I'm gonna have to try this bad boy out at my meta tomorrow

It's pretty solid, but it gives you a real perspective on just how bad assault marines are when they need that kind of buff to feel OK.

I kind of dislike it on the principle that it makes it too easy; it essentially eliminates all of the problems with vanilla foot marines; no Tactical Marine Tax, no HQ character tax (but still available for you to take in the form of a Librarius Conclave or, less optimally, as an unbound army since formation rules are retained in unbound), being able to shoot heavy weapons immediately after deepstrike, and assault marines that can duck out of shooting for one turn by charging.

It's a great formation, but didn't sit well with me and a lot of people because it was a very blatant cash grab (considering it was only included in a limited edition fashion. GW was literally selling power).

Yeah I saw it and definitely saw the OPness. I won't use it all the time, and will be using it as a detachment for my main force. I play at the GW Battlebunker in Memphis that has a lot of veteran competitive players so I don't think they'll be too upset at a rookie using it every once in a while while he hones his skills haha

The main thing that makes it very nasty is Grav cannons. Any other heavy weapon is strong but not that bad.

It's a shame really as the formation gives me an excuse to collect the actual reserve companies of a space marine chapter (two of which are made up exclusively of either assault marines or devastator marines) but it makes me feel so dirty using it.

Dropping in with multimeltas is pretty dang nasty too.

I know this is probably a question for the army list section, but I already started this thread about SAF so I might as well keep it here. I'm playing a 1250 point game against harlequins tomorrow that uses a lot of transports and ICs. I'm thinking:

HQ
Librarian w/ combi melta, bike
3 bikes w/ 2 meltas, AB w/ MM

Troop
2x5 man scout squads(for infiltrating on OBJs)

Elite
2 venerable dreads w/ MM and HF

Fast Attack
2 five man Assault marines w/ veteran sergeant w/ power sword

Heavy
5 man dev squad w/ MM
5 man dev squad with HB

I know this isn't the most ideal set up, but I'm working with what I currently have. I didn't take any Grav because he hardly has any units w/ armor saves, they all have invulnerable saves. any advice on improvements to the list?

GiantAmongMen wrote:
I know this is probably a question for the army list section, but I already started this thread about SAF so I might as well keep it here. I'm playing a 1250 point game against harlequins tomorrow that uses a lot of transports and ICs. I'm thinking:

HQ
Librarian w/ combi melta, bike
3 bikes w/ 2 meltas, AB w/ MM

Troop
2x5 man scout squads(for infiltrating on OBJs)

Elite
2 venerable dreads w/ MM and HF

Fast Attack
2 five man Assault marines w/ veteran sergeant w/ power sword

Heavy
5 man dev squad w/ MM
5 man dev squad with HB

I know this isn't the most ideal set up, but I'm working with what I currently have. I didn't take any Grav because he hardly has any units w/ armor saves, they all have invulnerable saves. any advice on improvements to the list?

against harlequins you say?
drop the powersword as it is pointless against pure invul's
Swap the MM's for HB's and stick some flamers on the assault marines. Harlequins ignore low AP, and the transports can get a 4++, so Heavy Bolters are your friend. as are regular bolters. Also, don't expect those assault marines to win any combats

Well I was using the MMs to try and take out the transports and ICs. In our last match I used the HQ bikes and literally drove around the map don't bypass the language filter like this. Reds8n on three of his ICs and knocking out a transport. But I guess that would be a good idea for the Devs since the bikes and dreads already have plenty of melta. And yeah I'm not expecting much from the assault squads. Get into combat round 1, try and take some out on the charge, rerolling to hits and to wounds. And hold me down as long as I can until my HQ or dreads get freed up to wipe out what's left

It's a potent formation but it's pretty weak against orks and i've seen it failing against 6-th dark angels in landraiders.

Why would you change your list based I an opponent? If you don't have enough padding in your list to accept that some opponents won't give a crap about your grav, you shouldn't be taking the grav at all.

Ideally you should be adjusting your list after a game, with the aim to make it more competitive. Particularly when you're using a top tier army against a bottom tier one...

I can assure you that he knows he's playing space marines and will be building around that. I can also assure that you and everyone else has built up a list that works against an opponent you'd be playing in a couple days, anyone intelligent would. Just like in real war, knowing your enemy and preparing for them is half the battle. 9/10 a bunch of Grav spam would do well, but I'm not going to spend 500 points to have a dev squad and a HQ bike squad that can't kill anything. That would be stupid.

It's a strong formation. If you really want to cheese it out - take a large unit of scout bikes with a homing beacon and set them up near you want to drop your assualt marines. Then drop two of the meanest characters you can with the assault marines.

the_scotsman wrote:
Why would you change your list based I an opponent? If you don't have enough padding in your list to accept that some opponents won't give a crap about your grav, you shouldn't be taking the grav at all.

Ideally you should be adjusting your list after a game, with the aim to make it more competitive. Particularly when you're using a top tier army against a bottom tier one...

+1. I pretty much only build and play take-all-comers lists, even when I know my opponents army. The only way I'd purposely build a list to take advantage of an enemy list's weaknesses is if that guy was a total tool and deserved to be humbled, but, considering I'm not into wasting time playing total tools, this never happens.

Just to clarify, this isn't a tailor made list for his harlequins. This is my first time even running SAF. The only difference I made from what I would usually do for this match was not taking gravs on the Devs

GiantAmongMen wrote:
I know this is probably a question for the army list section, but I already started this thread about SAF so I might as well keep it here. I'm playing a 1250 point game against harlequins tomorrow that uses a lot of transports and ICs. I'm thinking:

HQ
Librarian w/ combi melta, bike
3 bikes w/ 2 meltas, AB w/ MM

Troop
2x5 man scout squads(for infiltrating on OBJs)

Elite
2 venerable dreads w/ MM and HF

Fast Attack
2 five man Assault marines w/ veteran sergeant w/ power sword

Heavy
5 man dev squad w/ MM
5 man dev squad with HB

I know this isn't the most ideal set up, but I'm working with what I currently have. I didn't take any Grav because he hardly has any units w/ armor saves, they all have invulnerable saves. any advice on improvements to the list?

Keep the ASM cheap, generally maybe a melta bomb is the only upgrade on that sarge. Besides, saying against army that don't have good armor save, take power maul instead of power sword, I don't know weather those Harlinquin characters have eternal warrior or not, S6 can ID them, if your sarge are lucky enough to survive till I4 step
A further suggestion is when assaulting the Harlinquin transports, try to surround that small foot print vehicle with your ASM, then you are able to wipe the unit embarked on it when the vehicle is destroyed, since those models have no way to get 1inch away from you.

So the game went about as well as it could have. Turn 1: Devs dropped and blew up both transports and made the squads in both go to ground. Assault squads came in pistols blazing and did pretty decent in combat, locking both squads in combat. Dread dropped and it and the HQ melta bikes wiped out an entire squad of bikers. Scouts infiltrated into objectives and set up tents and brewed coffee all game. After the first round devastation it was pretty much just a cat and mouse game hunting down all his ICs. But in conclusion: SAF= too OPed to be fun

Neophyte2012 wrote:

GiantAmongMen wrote:
I know this is probably a question for the army list section, but I already started this thread about SAF so I might as well keep it here. I'm playing a 1250 point game against harlequins tomorrow that uses a lot of transports and ICs. I'm thinking:

HQ
Librarian w/ combi melta, bike
3 bikes w/ 2 meltas, AB w/ MM

Troop
2x5 man scout squads(for infiltrating on OBJs)

Elite
2 venerable dreads w/ MM and HF

Fast Attack
2 five man Assault marines w/ veteran sergeant w/ power sword

Heavy
5 man dev squad w/ MM
5 man dev squad with HB

I know this isn't the most ideal set up, but I'm working with what I currently have. I didn't take any Grav because he hardly has any units w/ armor saves, they all have invulnerable saves. any advice on improvements to the list?

Keep the ASM cheap, generally maybe a melta bomb is the only upgrade on that sarge. Besides, saying against army that don't have good armor save, take power maul instead of power sword, I don't know weather those Harlinquin characters have eternal warrior or not, S6 can ID them, if your sarge are lucky enough to survive till I4 step
A further suggestion is when assaulting the Harlinquin transports, try to surround that small foot print vehicle with your ASM, then you are able to wipe the unit embarked on it when the vehicle is destroyed, since those models have no way to get 1inch away from you.

Only the solitaire has Eternal Warrior, but if an ASM squad is in combat with him its already died. everything else is T3 no EW

GiantAmongMen wrote:
So the game went about as well as it could have. Turn 1: Devs dropped and blew up both transports and made the squads in both go to ground. Assault squads came in pistols blazing and did pretty decent in combat, locking both squads in combat. Dread dropped and it and the HQ melta bikes wiped out an entire squad of bikers. Scouts infiltrated into objectives and set up tents and brewed coffee all game. After the first round devastation it was pretty much just a cat and mouse game hunting down all his ICs. But in conclusion: SAF= too OPed to be fun

Really? I consistently beat drop pod armies including those with SAF. Its mostly a matter of deployment (though decent terrain helps). Bubble wrap valuable units and reserve what can't be protected. Even if the SAF arrives turn two, you have time to spread the board and mitigate effects. Its really not that OP given the buy-in points cost.

When you play this formation, you really should put "It's raining men" by The Weather Girls (or the Geri Halliwell version, I don't judge) on in the background. It's the perfect song for this formation.

GiantAmongMen wrote:
Have y'all seen the SkyHammer Annihilation Force Detachment special rules? It is just about the greatest thing I've ever seen for losing friends and making your opponents quit the game?

Fixed it for you. You wont make any friends. It completely poops on some armies.

If you want to tailor against harlequins, take flamers - the most deadly weapons against squishy 5++ elfs.

 Orock wrote:

GiantAmongMen wrote:
Have y'all seen the SkyHammer Annihilation Force Detachment special rules? It is just about the greatest thing I've ever seen for losing friends and making your opponents quit the game?

Fixed it for you. You wont make any friends. It completely poops on some armies.

One army it poops on in particular is Eldar. This can be seen as a good thing as Eldar are clearly the top army right now, however it is very frustrating to not be able to do what your army is built to do (i.e. tactically avoid assaults). "Oh, you brought Scatterbikes and a WratihKnight? Let me drop in turn 1 guaranteed right near you, vaporize the WK and charge 2-4 of your bike units." "Oh, you say that was over half of your army? GG"

Drop pod armies are already pretty good, but it kills me that GW spent all the effort getting rid of units that charge from Deep Strike, just to bring it back.

Personally i'd rather face skyhammer then drop cents, it seems so risky taking skyhammer. So many lists use transports or are immune to the pinning effect.

It's such a squishy formation, i get why people rather opt for ml's and bolters on the devs to use the pinning rule while being able to drop further away.

I think it's a good or even great formation (definitely not anything more) in certain situations. I also think that it is a 1-trick pony. Some armies will be devastated and some will survive the barrage and pick apart the 5man squads that landed successfully.

It's a big risk trying to deep strike in Assault squads that close and if you are running 4 Gravs per 10 devs than your points are adding up fast. I think with 2 10man Devs and 2 5man Assaults, it's close to 800 points. Which is reasonable for what it does. You can also add in the scout formation for fast, scoutable locator beacons as well to help the Assault squads. But with an interceptor on the Devs and some proper deployment, you'll make it out alright.

Don't forget some armies will be able to play around the strength of this army. 2 armies on top of my head are Drop Pod armies and Flyrant armies. Null deployment hurts. Especially if the Flyrant army just puts 5 Mucolid spores with Shrouding in ruins. Even if the Skyhammer deploys Turn2, the birds will be in the air the first turn and in ruins (most likely) and the alpha/beta strike is over.

I generally play against more competitive players, but I'd love to play against this list or even play with it. I think it adds something different to the game.

My last FLG tourney I went to had 2 of the same exact armies from the same gaming group. They placed 1st and 2nd with 3-0 records.

5 Farseers
7 Warlocks
3x5 Warp Spiders
1 Wraithknights
2x3 Scat Bikes
1850 - Nova Format

I wouldn't mind seeing what Skyhammer could do to a list like this, I don't imagine much considering the Warpspiders get to move every time they are shot at and have huge LOS ruins in the center on every table. Also the Eldar player I played against rolled 2 invis's so he had it on both the star and the WK. haha. I love a challenge though.

Heres a Q about the formation. When you deploy the assault marines, they still scatter 2d6. They have a a high chance of dying the turn they arrive via mishap, or at least, ending up where they dont want to be.

Is there anyway other than skulls to reduce their DS distance?

 xSoulgrinderx wrote:
Heres a Q about the formation. When you deploy the assault marines, they still scatter 2d6. They have a a high chance of dying the turn they arrive via mishap, or at least, ending up where they dont want to be.

Is there anyway other than skulls to reduce their DS distance?

Locator beacons that have been on the table since the start of the turn. So you can’t use ones in the Dev’s pods. But scout bikes are a good source here, or if you drop on turn two, other pods from wave 1.