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So other threads made me want to throw together a "7.0"-balanced CWE book.

I know this is "pointless", and this isn't aimed to match the Gladius or Decurion.

By 7.0, think DE, BA, Orks, GK, etc.

Basically, on the level of SM, minus the formations and Grav.

I've tried to revert it back to a balancing list, not a wishlist.

So here are my thoughts:

Troops:
Wind riders:
-20ppm
-SLs are 15pts each

Elites:
Wraithguard/Blades:
-"Sacred" - Units that contain one or more models with this rule may not join or be joined by units that contain one or more models from another *detachment*.

Fire Dragons:
-Drop Assured Destruction

Hornet:
Pulse Lasers are 15pts each

FA:
Spiders:
-Spinners become S5
-Lose their reactive Flickerjump

Hawks:
-Wings move 12"

LoW:
WK:
375pts base

Formations:
Wraith Construct:
No more than one WK may be chosen per Warhost

Pale Court:
-The 3 Aspects must be DAs

<snip, never mind, saw the WIP bit>

I might propose this for Bladestorm: "to-wound rolls of 6 are resolved at AP3, if and only if a 6 would still be able to wound normally", thus both removing the AP2 and the auto-wound feature. Doesn't matter as much for cannons, since they're only bouncing off of T10, but for catapults it's relevant. (T8 isn't that rare, especially when you figure in Iron Arm and Brotherhood of Psykers shenanigans).

Singleton Falcons deep striking is useful, I think. BS3 Fire Prisms, though, would be weaksauce - the 10 point upgrade would be near-mandatory. Maybe reduce their cost accordingly?

(Also, the change to Spiders isn't as big a nerf as it looks - remember that, as Jet Pack Infantry, they're Relentless).

You must loose to eldar a lot... Cause if this is your idea of balanced then you are seriously mistaken. Thank god this is pointless...

From most of OPs other posts, they play Eldar fairly extensively.

Likely, like me, they're tired of being automatically labeled as That Frelling Guy just for playing Eldar (or Tau... I get hate for both.)

More so that it has gotten really, really hard to make a reasonable list with CWE.

I hate to admit it but the current bladestorm is balanced against the most recent codices:

Necrons: don't care
DA: jinking they don't care
SM: Gladius doesn't care
Tau: Eldar need this for shurikens to be relevant vs the MC parade

You know who cares about bladestorm? BA and Black Templars and anyone fielding high quality infantry. Which get melted by Tau any way, so what's the difference?

And even then.

Riptides - invulnerable or toe in cover, fnp don't care
Ghostkeel 2+ cover easily obtainable and snapfire protection don't care.
Stormsurge, same as riptide don't care
Supremacy suit same as riptide don't care

So I walked back from wish listing to balancing.

I have a lot of ideas that I think would be cool and balanced, but wanted to use a lighter touch.

Martel,
I find CSM to actually care the most about my Bladestorm, actually. I don't think its that imbalanced. I could see it going away, but the main users (DAs and Guardians) would need to be substantially rebalanced. Which I did in my "wish listing" version, but that gets to be a bit too heavy a touch.

Frozocone,
As has become painfully obvious in about half the threads on this site, those parts of Tau are reasonable at the "7.5" level, but a bit OP at the "7.0" level. They are already too much for some factions to handle, but not enough to help Tau handle Eldar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jade,
I think that that Bladestorm idea would just make it wonkier. I'd rather either leave it alone, or do something more drastic.

Fire Prisms could certainly use a small points drop. The point of the change was more that most militia would probably be BS3. Maybe not Pilots though. At any rate, I reverted that. Still love the idea, but not really a balancing thing.

And the Spiders thing was intentional. The weapon looks like a "heavy", and that a nonrelentless (Autarch) carrying one should have problems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Also, I'm done posting it, for now.)

jade_angel wrote:
From most of OPs other posts, they play Eldar fairly extensively.

Likely, like me, they're tired of being automatically labeled as That Frelling Guy just for playing Eldar (or Tau... I get hate for both.)

Try breaking into a new gaming group as Necrons. It took me a month before I could get anyone to play me. All are heard was "I hear they're broken. Go work on your Space Marines". That was from a Tau player, btw.

Perhaps Necrons and Tau could use the same treatment...

Necrons aren't broken, but they are nigh-on impossible to shift without bringing scads of firepower (or a bunch of melee craziness). Yeah, they could use a bit of a tweak, but I'm not sure what - take away their durability and they're worse Space Marines. Take away Gauss and they have hardly any answer to heavy armor.

The Necron version would probably just be "Wraiths are 55ppm, and stick to the CAD.". Or something close to that.

jade_angel wrote:
Necrons aren't broken, but they are nigh-on impossible to shift without bringing scads of firepower (or a bunch of melee craziness). Yeah, they could use a bit of a tweak, but I'm not sure what - take away their durability and they're worse Space Marines. Take away Gauss and they have hardly any answer to heavy armor.

Just switch their RP back to something similar to the 5th edition version. It still gives you a huge defensive boost, but your opponent can potentially mitigate its usefulness by sweeping you in combat or focusing their fire on a single unit in shooting. Much more fun/interesting (imho) to be able to shut it down somehow than for it to just be a groan-worthy chore to kill a few immortals. The counterpoint would, I suppose, be that there's enough firepower out there right now to make wiping out an entire 'cron unit using 5th edition RP rather easy thus making RP almost a non-benefit. I'd counter that argument by pointing out that putting that much firepower into a given unit means you probably didn't shoot at a different unit.

@Bharring:
Windriders: Sounds good, but why not simply make heavy weapons 1 per 3 like in the old days? Seems like a simple enough fix to me.

Wraithguard/Blades: Eh. Not sure on this one. Sure, the webway portal bomb isn't an option, but you can still put them in a raider or simply vomit them forward inside wave serpents. I feel like reverting wraith weapons back to their 6th edition incarnations might fix the "real" issue while still allowing your shadowseer and archon friends to hang out with your wraiths.

Fire Dragons: No complaints here. They were already "fixed" in my opinion when they got 3+ armor.

Hornet: Sure. Are we seeing a ton of hornets these days though? I know they're good, but I rarely see them.

Spiders: Grudgingly, I'd say the change in gun profile is quite reasonable. It cuts down on instagibbing of T3 characters and keeps them quite powerful despite being a bit worse against anything initiative 4 or higher. Not sure how I feel about them losing the reactive flickerjump though. To me, it's a very fluffy, cool rule that forces your opponent to make interesting decisions. That said, I acknowledge that the exarch's ability to autopass morale combines with a 3+ armor save and hit & run to make it rather hard to completely kill them. Maybe just make the reactive flicker jump a once-per-turn thing?

WK: Yep.

Wraith Construct: Yep again.

Pale Court: Is this the corsair formation? I'm not familiar with those rules yet.

Also, I'd rather like to see the spirit host formation allow you to substitute the wraith knight for a second wraith lord.

The only thing really broken about Necrons right now is the Decurion upping the entire army's RP to 4+. That extra 1:6 chance to not take a wound seems to make a big difference. I've only used a Decurion once (and my opponent allowed me to use "counts as" for the Tomb Blades since I haven't finished mine yet. He wanted me to see the difference), and that is the only time I didn't lose significantly more units than my opponent.

The other things with the Decurion are the combination of Relentless and MTC: that means you can bring a Warrior squad forward more quickly, double-tap, and still charge to staple down a dangerous shooter, or deny a dangerous assault unit their charge bonuses.

It sounds counterintuitive - to charge with a shooty unit in a shooty army - but it matters more than it looks like.

The Reclamation Legions bonus (and the bonuses of several of the auxiliaries) are powerful, for sure, but they're aren't broken when balanced against the other "7.5" codices. The problem is that half the armies out there (DE, Orks, 'Nids, et al.) desperately need formations that match our power. Necrons are supposed to be hard to kill, but Orks are supposed to be able to overwhelm foes with sheer numbers and "DGAF" attitude. IG are supposed to be able to drown the enemy with the corpses of their conscripts while shelling the enemy from afar. Neither of these are the case right now.

 EnTyme wrote:
The Reclamation Legions bonus (and the bonuses of several of the auxiliaries) are powerful, for sure, but they're aren't broken when balanced against the other "7.5" codices. The problem is that half the armies out there (DE, Orks, 'Nids, et al.) desperately need formations that match our power. Necrons are supposed to be hard to kill, but Orks are supposed to be able to overwhelm foes with sheer numbers and "DGAF" attitude. IG are supposed to be able to drown the enemy with the corpses of their conscripts while shelling the enemy from afar. Neither of these are the case right now.

It would be pretty cool if orks actually got a buff! I wouldn't mind playing them now just for the fun of it.

Perhaps nerfing the D might be a better solution than the Wraithguard fix listed above. Not sure. But it certainly seems more agreeable. I may change that.

EnTymes,

That is kinda the point of this thread. Bringing Eldar down to about Ork/IG/DE levels.

Necrons with Wraiths and Formations do just fine against other 7.5 codecies, but without those, wouldn't they be about at the level of Orks, IG, and DE? And the above-nerfed CWE?

Captain Control,
How do you think Orks would fare against the above Eldar changes?

Bharring wrote:

Captain Control,
How do you think Orks would fare against the above Eldar changes?

Being still fairly new my opinion doesn't hold much value, but that being said I do think this would make Eldar on a more equal playing level with some of the older codex's.
Just from my personal knowledge It seems like orks are the army that is in the most desperate need for a new codex and some big buffs.

Bharring wrote:
Perhaps nerfing the D might be a better solution than the Wraithguard fix listed above. Not sure. But it certainly seems more agreeable. I may change that.

EnTymes,

That is kinda the point of this thread. Bringing Eldar down to about Ork/IG/DE levels.

Necrons with Wraiths and Formations do just fine against other 7.5 codecies, but without those, wouldn't they be about at the level of Orks, IG, and DE? And the above-nerfed CWE?

Captain Control,
How do you think Orks would fare against the above Eldar changes?

I agree that the removal of formation would go a long way toward bring 3/4 of top tier armies (There are no Eldar in my local meta, so I won't make suggestion about them based on speculation alone) in line with the others, but the formations make for interesting battles and fluffy armies. I don't think those thing should be sacrificed in the name of balance. Instead of nerfing the high-powered armies, we (since GW seems to have no interest in doing so) should buff the underpowered armies.

 EnTyme wrote:
Instead of nerfing the high-powered armies, we (since GW seems to have no interest in doing so) should buff the underpowered armies.

Couldn't this also back fire and make a lot of the meta very streamline for each army. Like everyone taking the same units for each army because they are the best hands down.

 Captain_Control wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
Instead of nerfing the high-powered armies, we (since GW seems to have no interest in doing so) should buff the underpowered armies.

Couldn't this also back fire and make a lot of the meta very streamline for each army. Like everyone taking the same units for each army because they are the best hands down.

So the same thing we're seeing now? If everyone is taking the same units, it means internal balance is as far off as external balance.

 EnTyme wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Perhaps nerfing the D might be a better solution than the Wraithguard fix listed above. Not sure. But it certainly seems more agreeable. I may change that.

EnTymes,

That is kinda the point of this thread. Bringing Eldar down to about Ork/IG/DE levels.

Necrons with Wraiths and Formations do just fine against other 7.5 codecies, but without those, wouldn't they be about at the level of Orks, IG, and DE? And the above-nerfed CWE?

Captain Control,
How do you think Orks would fare against the above Eldar changes?

I agree that the removal of formation would go a long way toward bring 3/4 of top tier armies (There are no Eldar in my local meta, so I won't make suggestion about them based on speculation alone) in line with the others, but the formations make for interesting battles and fluffy armies. I don't think those thing should be sacrificed in the name of balance. Instead of nerfing the high-powered armies, we (since GW seems to have no interest in doing so) should buff the underpowered armies.

I partially agree with that sentiment. In general, I'd rather see everyone get shiny toys than see no one have shiny toys. That said, I think it's important to keep in mind that there's a big difference between an eldar list that's kitted out to win a tournament and an eldar list that's made of "subpar" options. To me, reapers, hawks, scorpions, and guardians (including the guardian formations) are all flavorful and fun to play with. Basically nothing in the current Craftworlds book is completely unusable, but there are definitely some noticable differences between the power level of a scatterbike versus, for instance, some avengers of roughly equal points.

Scatterbikes basically make light transports and all but the fastest and/or toughest units basically a non-option. I'm all for orks, et. all being snazzy like my scorpions and hawks, but I'd prefer no one be quite as powerful as scatterbikes (including scatterbikes). Buff the weaker armies, sure, but let's also avoid escalating things to the point that some options make other things non-options, says I.

In the past, I've run into arguments along the lines of, "My space marines (or whatever) have crappy, boring units in their troops slot, so all armies should have crappy, boring units too!" This always really bothered me. Surely it would be better for problem units to be improved and made fun/useful?

Wyldhunt wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Perhaps nerfing the D might be a better solution than the Wraithguard fix listed above. Not sure. But it certainly seems more agreeable. I may change that.

EnTymes,

That is kinda the point of this thread. Bringing Eldar down to about Ork/IG/DE levels.

Necrons with Wraiths and Formations do just fine against other 7.5 codecies, but without those, wouldn't they be about at the level of Orks, IG, and DE? And the above-nerfed CWE?

Captain Control,
How do you think Orks would fare against the above Eldar changes?

I agree that the removal of formation would go a long way toward bring 3/4 of top tier armies (There are no Eldar in my local meta, so I won't make suggestion about them based on speculation alone) in line with the others, but the formations make for interesting battles and fluffy armies. I don't think those thing should be sacrificed in the name of balance. Instead of nerfing the high-powered armies, we (since GW seems to have no interest in doing so) should buff the underpowered armies.

I partially agree with that sentiment. In general, I'd rather see everyone get shiny toys than see no one have shiny toys. That said, I think it's important to keep in mind that there's a big difference between an eldar list that's kitted out to win a tournament and an eldar list that's made of "subpar" options. To me, reapers, hawks, scorpions, and guardians (including the guardian formations) are all flavorful and fun to play with. Basically nothing in the current Craftworlds book is completely unusable, but there are definitely some noticable differences between the power level of a scatterbike versus, for instance, some avengers of roughly equal points.

Scatterbikes basically make light transports and all but the fastest and/or toughest units basically a non-option. I'm all for orks, et. all being snazzy like my scorpions and hawks, but I'd prefer no one be quite as powerful as scatterbikes (including scatterbikes). Buff the weaker armies, sure, but let's also avoid escalating things to the point that some options make other things non-options, says I.

In the past, I've run into arguments along the lines of, "My space marines (or whatever) have crappy, boring units in their troops slot, so all armies should have crappy, boring units too!" This always really bothered me. Surely it would be better for problem units to be improved and made fun/useful?

I'm definitely not saying "Eldar are fine the way they are. Don't nerf them." I've never played against them or with them, so I'm abstaining from that conversation until I have knowledge of that subject. I have played against Tau, various flavors of Space Marines (though not BA nor DA), and other Necrons, so I can say that we are fairly balanced against each other. I've also played against DE and Orks (I'll be playing Tyranids this weekend), and I can say they definitely need to be brought into the modern game, so to speak.

When Orks and DE did poorly against your Necrons, what were you using?

Just curious. Most of the Necron book *looked* reasonable at the "7.0" levelto me when it came out.

I'm very much of the opinion the Wraithknights and Scatterbikes are really the only thing that are in real need of nerfing. Frankly all the 7.5 codexes seem fairly well matched against each other, it's the other codexes that need to be brought into line and the sooner the better.

Well, that depends on if you want to balance around "7.5" or "7.0".

Back when the 6E CWE codex was the only "7.5"- level book, I felt the solution was obvious - balance around the "7.0" level. Since the Decurion, though (2nd "7.5" book), it has been more debatable.

That debate could go for *pages and pages*, with legitimate discussion being held.

I was hoping to sidestep that by specifying I was aiming for the "7.0" level.

Units can be stylistic and fluffy, without being OP. Swooping Hawks in the 6E codex certainly weren't broken, and certainly felt how they should feel.

Necrons should endure. Reanimation does that.

Orks DGAF, they just keep coming till they clobber you. Low points costs and poor armor makes that happen, but reasonably.

DE also DGAF, they just want to inflict pain and chaos. A bunch of Kalabite squads in Raiders and Venoms do that perfectly.

IG are the poor sods who hold the line, against superhumans, unfathomable aspects of the Warp, endless tides of Greenskins and Nids. Each IG does their part. Which is mostly to shine a flashlight, and stand their ground, and die. Blobs of men, or armored companies. The backbone of the IoM military is the lowly Guardsman.

SM are the Angels of the Emperor. They show up in a flash, with small arms mostly just bouncing off their armor. They fight harder, live longer, and shoot better than IG. But there are fewer of them. They outshoot the choppy, and outchop the shooty. Generalists, with tools to have an option against almost any threat.

Then Taudar came to 6E.

Tau could shoot armies off the table.

CWE could do anything.

And SM became Grav Biker Spam and Grav Cent Deathstar.

The armies and lists that feel fun and fluffy seem to be more the "7.0" lists.

Bharring wrote:
When Orks and DE did poorly against your Necrons, what were you using?

Just curious. Most of the Necron book *looked* reasonable at the "7.0" levelto me when it came out.

In both matches, I was using a standard CAD. The forces were roughly the same. The big difference is that the Orks saw more scarabs and I didn't finish my Immortals until the day of the match with the DE player.

The Ork player had a couple blobs, but mostly he had bikes and Meganobz (I think. Don't know Ork units too well). Even with the blobs, by Ghost Ark/20 Warrior blob combo made short work of him. He was tabled by turn 3 and I only lost a few warrior models, one Lychguard model, and a unit of Scarabs.

The DE player actually gave me some problems. He used a group of Wyches (I never managed to kill a single model from this unit, btw), two Raiders filled with troops (I know less about DE units than I do about Orks), a flyer, and those cool bird people). The flyer actually did a number on my warrior blob by using all 4 of its missiles on them before the Wyches charged them, but my GA and the Warriors inside destroyed both of his raiders in one turn (and killed a large number of the troops inside one of them) My Immortals killed his warlord in two rounds of shooting. My Lychstar basically delayed the Wyches until I was able to cap and three objectives on the final turn and squeak out a win. The match was honestly closer than it should have been. I forgot to move three of my units in turn one, and I actually forgot to roll RP on my warriors and Overlord the first two turns (this was only my second match ever).

Why not just return Bladestorm to the Dire Avenger rule, make for whole army if need be, a la Space Marine doctrines?


"Once per game (may be increased by detachment/formation rules), any model with this rule may fire twice the number of shots than normally permitted. This only applies to the following weapons; (lists Shuriken weapons)"

Wouldn't people then complain that a DA squad can, for one round, do as much damage to Marines as Marines could to DA in one round of Rapid Fire?

Also, how would that interact with the EA Shrine formation? 13ppm shooting 6 BS5 shots?

Or the Warhost formation.

To do that right, it'd get too heavy handed, I think. I'm trying for the lightest touch to be reasonable. Bladestorm might be a little better than I'd like, but its not crazy (at the "7.0" level).