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Bharring wrote: Wouldn't people then complain that a DA squad can, for one round, do as much damage to Marines as Marines could to DA in one round of Rapid Fire?
Also, how would that interact with the EA Shrine formation? 13ppm shooting 6 BS5 shots?
Or the Warhost formation.
To do that right, it'd get too heavy handed, I think. I'm trying for the lightest touch to be reasonable. Bladestorm might be a little better than I'd like, but its not crazy (at the "7.0" level).
I'm not familiar with the latest rules and formations but I feel more light sots would beat a lower amount of sots that can all rip apart anybody.
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I'm very much of the opinion the Wraithknights and Scatterbikes are really the only thing that are in real need of nerfing. Frankly all the 7.5 codexes seem fairly well matched against each other, it's the other codexes that need to be brought into line and the sooner the better.
Then you have never played against any remotely competent Eldar player. Firedragons get AP0 weapons (+3 on dmg chart), The one phoenix lord who can disarm her opponent by sacrificing 1 CC attack. I fought 3 Who would win battles against her with Ghaz, and guess what? my LoW lost EVERY SINGLE TIME. That isn't even getting into the Psychic shenanigans, nor the D toting Wraith Guard.
Bharring, against your nerfs, orks still lose horribly. Not sure if it is simply the fact that Eldar are just to OP or that the Ork codex is just that pathetically weak. To this date, I have beaten Eldar one time, and it was because my SAG killed the Eldar's Warlord and a Wraithknight in 1 shot with the Double Six vortex.
Orks are in a bad place, that's true. But at least these nerfs brings it closer, right?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Looking at the HQ you referenced - Jain Zar. The pinnicle of swordsmanship among the Eldar. Beyond what any Exarch could hope to be. Which is itself beyond what any Eldar could hope to be (while remaining Eldar).
And still a worse Swordsman (WS) than a random Vindicare sniper....
IIRC, there were a few options that chump Jain Zar at less than half her points.
Let's look at her vs Orks. She should win a duel with any Nob or Warboss. Look at her points.
Beyond that, it takes 18 attacks from Orks on the charge to do a wound. Orks get 4 attacks and she has 3 wounds. That's 54 attacks to kill her. Which is 13.5 Orks with pistols/CCWs. As she kills about 2 Orks before they strike back, charing with 16+ boys one-rounds her in CC.
Or hit her with a Nob and Warboss, each with a PK. One sits out while she kills 2 Boys, and the other hits her hard.
She duels. That is just about the only thing she does. Beyond that, if you can kill 3 Termies, she dies easily. Trying to duel her is like trying to receive an Ork charge before thinning them out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/22 17:11:05
Bharring wrote: How many points is Ghaz? What are his stats?
Orks are in a bad place, that's true. But at least these nerfs brings it closer, right?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Looking at the HQ you referenced - Jain Zar. The pinnicle of swordsmanship among the Eldar. Beyond what any Exarch could hope to be. Which is itself beyond what any Eldar could hope to be (while remaining Eldar).
And still a worse Swordsman (WS) than a random Vindicare sniper....
IIRC, there were a few options that chump Jain Zar at less than half her points.
Let's look at her vs Orks. She should win a duel with any Nob or Warboss. Look at her points.
Beyond that, it takes 18 attacks from Orks on the charge to do a wound. Orks get 4 attacks and she has 3 wounds. That's 54 attacks to kill her. Which is 13.5 Orks with pistols/CCWs. As she kills about 2 Orks before they strike back, charing with 16+ boys one-rounds her in CC.
Or hit her with a Nob and Warboss, each with a PK. One sits out while she kills 2 Boys, and the other hits her hard.
She duels. That is just about the only thing she does. Beyond that, if you can kill 3 Termies, she dies easily. Trying to duel her is like trying to receive an Ork charge before thinning them out.
Ghaz is 225pts, He is WS6 BS2 S5 T5 W4 I4 A5 Ld9 Sv2+ no invul save.
Yes in your scenario the boyz win, but what idiot runs Jain Zar by herself? Also your forgetting that silly mask of hers that reduces my WS and Initiative by 5! So now those boyz you said would kill her are hitting on 5s and depending on who charged wounding on 4s or 5s. I believe she is what? 200pts? thats 30 boyz, on the charge thats 120 attacks, 40 hits and 20 wounds against her 2+ armor, and thats if she isn't smart enough to be taken in a squad of aspect warriors to soak up that firepower, and of course assuming nobody thought to kill a few boyz before assaulting them or being assaulted in return. on the flipside, if Jain Zar assaults those boyz she kills 2-3 right away, leaving 27 thats 81 attacks, 20 hits and about 6-7 wounds against 2+ armor. Big difference huh? and of course when you factor in her abilities she will get the charge about 90% of the time.
So your 200pt character reduces I and WS by 5, disarms her target of his/her AP2 weapon, causes fear, is fearless and has about 8 other special rules
My 225pt character is basically a really expensive warboss who once a game gets to have a 2+ invul save and allows Meganobz in his unit to run that one turn. thats about it.
Bharring wrote: Beyond that, it takes 18 attacks from Orks on the charge to do a wound. Orks get 4 attacks and she has 3 wounds. That's 54 attacks to kill her. Which is 13.5 Orks with pistols/CCWs. As she kills about 2 Orks before they strike back, charing with 16+ boys one-rounds her in CC.
18 attacks hitting on 5s = 6 hits, 6 S4 hits against a T4 model = 3 wounds, which equals .5 wounds against a 2+ armor save. So in reality you need 36 attacks to do a single wound against her on average, and thats 9 boyz, meaning 30 boyz should be able to kill her theoretically, but again thats not counting actual game play into the scenario.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Finally, (I forgot to add this) I am not making a case that Orks are pathetically weak (Which they are) but that you need to factor in ALL elements of the Eldar codex when proposing nerfs. Simply taking out the super cheese and leaving behind the rest of the cheese still leaves you with a very cheddar codex.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/03/23 23:38:36
Sorry but eldar are not marines, Each unit has a job, and if you allow them to do their job of course they will win.
Everything but the super cheese is reasonable balanced.
I agree that Orks, need to be better balanced but that does not justify a nerf to the other armies that are somewhat balanced.
I like to play all the armies, and have balanced fun (which is why I try not to take any cheese to friendly matches)
but nerfing 9/10 codexies to bring them in line with the weaker codex won't work.
Some nerfing is needed, but instead of nerfing everything we should have a balanced approach.
Nerf the overpowered but bring up the under-powered.
(ps ghaz is far better at a lot than jahz and the once a turn 2+ inv can save my day when I play)(But most single characters have weaknesses for 1/2 the cost, they are just cool, that is it.)
Bharring wrote: In this context, Ghaz has many jobs. He'll stomp most of the other PLs in CC. He's got his WAAAGH thing. He's a giant beat stick.
Beating Ghaz is Jain Zar's one and only job. She's the one who would have zero jobs if that were "fixed".
Jain Zar's job is to go after enemy characters and slaughter them. Ghaz's job is to look intimidating and then die in glorious fashion to any and all enemy characters with EW and an invulnerable save.
Ghaz like the rest of the Ork codex is only good at assaulting things that aren't good at assaulting. IE Marines in general (Except special characters/Death stars) and that sort.
When Ghaz or any other Ork unit comes into contact with a good CC unit they die in droves.
That comment that a 2++ for 1 turn is amazing? really dude? really? I think I would take a continuous 3++ over a once a game 2++. But hey, I just play the army what do I know.
What do you think happens when Jain Zar fights a Dreadnaught? Or even an Armored Sentinal?
Ghaz destroys both.
Jain Zar never fights dreadnoughts or Sentinels because by the time she gets there the other Eldar Units have already destroyed the weakest vehicle type in the game. And same goes for Ghaz.
What happens when Jain gets into CC with a Vet squad with 2 Power Axes? Ghaz does a lot better.
Jain challenges the sergeant, disarms him and then kills him and 2-3 other models, and then Jain zar's squad kills the rest before they get to swing because she reduced their stats dramatically.
Ghaz will just eat them because he has 2+ armor and they don't have a powerfist because they are idiots.
What happens when Jain Zar gets shot by AP2? Ghaz isn't nearly as scared.
She rolls a 2+ look out sir onto the squad she is in, not a big deal. Ghaz on the other hand either does the same and a meganob loses a wound or possibly gets doubled out.
A Termie squad nearby? That'll eat her even without storm shields.
No it won't because she again challenges the sergeant, disarms him and then kills him, while her squad deals with the terminators who are at -5 to WS and Initiative due to her special rules.
Ghaz on the other hand goes toe to toe with them and loses more of his wounds and all his bodyguard of meganobz, very possibly dying to them in the process.
What happens when there is nothing to challenge? Or the opponent rejects? Or has good T?
Then your using her wrong, she is a character killer not a MC hunter, and if your opponent rejects? then you still win combat, you just don't get to kill your opponents character in a challenge.
Outside her special rules, she's got Artificer Armor Captain survivability + EW. Not even CM level.
Outside of his special rules Ghaz is just a regular Warboss with +1 toughness
As for her attacks, she's got good WS and I, but not great S, and a moderate A.
She'll assassinate Ghaz, but if assassinating an infantry Character isn't what you need to do, Ghaz does it better
As I just showed you, no he doesnt. and if you consider her WS and I to be "good" your not reading her special rules right, she will always have higher WS and I.
Ever seen what a Howling Banshee squad does to Termies?
A fat lot of nothing.
Sure, Jain Zar has a good chance to kill a termie. A little less than one a round. Her Banshee friends, though, fight about as well a Guardsmen. So 1 or 2 Termies die a round, while about 5 Banshees die. So Jain hides for one round before getting splatted. Wohoo. She maybe killed 2 Termies.
Vet squads with Power Weapons can't be challenged out - they arent characters. And the odds of Jain Zar killing a Sarge +3 is pretty terrible. Shes not that deadly.
I understand why you might think there's always another Boy for a Look Out Sir, but stripping her Banshee friends with Boltguns or Lasguns is a lot easier than stripping a squad of Meganobs. Or a 30man Boy squad.
She will always have higher WS and I on the first round of combat. But not necessarily on the second. And she doesn't hit hard enough to wipe most units in 1 round of combat. Face her with a 30man Boy squad and she's only gonna escape if she can break them.
Don't discount armor so much. If Ghaz runs into armor, he can smash it. If he runs into high T, he can smash it. Jain Zar can't do anything about either.
Look man, I'm an ork player who also happens to be getting into eldar. Saying Ghaz is bad against Jain Zhar is 1000000% pointless. Ghaz is just pure gak. He's been nerfed so many times he's basically just a triple costed warboss in mega armour. Orks need buffs.
Really just make scatter bikes more expensive and/or make them 1 for every 3 bikes. Then make Wraithguards less dumb (except for wraithblades those guys are fine) and I think the codex is pretty much solid.
"People say on their first meeting a Man and an Ork exchanged a long, hard look, didn't care much for what they saw, and shot each other dead."
Don Savik wrote: Look man, I'm an ork player who also happens to be getting into eldar. Saying Ghaz is bad against Jain Zhar is 1000000% pointless. Ghaz is just pure gak. He's been nerfed so many times he's basically just a triple costed warboss in mega armour. Orks need buffs.
Really just make scatter bikes more expensive and/or make them 1 for every 3 bikes. Then make Wraithguards less dumb (except for wraithblades those guys are fine) and I think the codex is pretty much solid.
Except for AP0 Firedragons
Except for Warp Spiders jumping around killing everything
Except for the WraithKnight being criminally undercosted, a GMC and able to carry 2 D-weapons, all for around the same price as a Morkanaut
Except for Eldar Psychic Shenanigans, apparently they can field psykers for a fraction of the cost of my Weirdboy. ohh and have significantly better powers.
Just to name a few other glaring issues with that codex.
