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I'm amazed that such an obvious troll thread has got this far.

So... Taking a MeltaGun will often decrease your heavy AT at 6-24"? And certainly do less than just adding another guy?

Think about it. If a MG needs a 5 or 6 to hurt AV13/14, and a Boltgun needs a 6, but gets 2 shots at 12", that Boltgun is going to do a lot better than the Melts Gun at the Melts Gun's job.

I imagine Corsairs would own.

9 or 10 points for 3 shots at 24", and i5 in CC? Being S3 is their very strong disincentive, but suddenly there is no need for AT or anti-high-T weaponry.

A Wraithlord would be as easy to kill with lasguns as 3 SM Bikes.

I shudder to think how powerful 60 Scatterbikes would be, even more so than now.

In any case all I can say is please pay us a visit in either the tactics or army list pages.

As an aside to the Mods; hasn't this thread gone on long enough? I'm not entirely sure there is anything else to be said on the issue.

Allow me to second that - this is a rope-pee-frenzy, and there's nothing else useful to say.

Unless watching people fart into the breeze is entertaining.

You would make tyranids the masters of the game with high model count more then one shot per gun.

Leviathan FOC.

Tervigon for WL.

20 Termagants with devourers in drop pods for every troop choice. Trygon primes to deepstrike in some synapse.

Repeat the list unit you hit points max.

With 60 shots w/ gauss that ignores armor stepping out of the pod any one unit is dead on arrival per pod.

So.......it turns from lots of high strength, low AP weapons to spamming as many basic troops as possible, and heavy vehicles and monstrous creatures die off completely?

10 rapid-fire bolters vs 1 Land Raider with these rules;
20 shots
13.32 hits
2.22 of those hits result in a roll of 6
2 HP gone


30 Orks firing shootas
60 shots (63 if having 3 big shootas)
20(21) hits
3.33 (3.5) 6s
3-4 HP gone.

Cost of units
Land Raider 250
Tactical Squad (10 men) 140
30 Orks (dunno but at 5ppm) 150

Doesnt and army have these rules... Play Necrons

A friend of mine is a TFG. He will not hesitate to run a wraithknight in a 750 point game

Why do you call such people friends? Why do you play him?

If you have to change the game to try to prevent your friends from being dicks it is them not the game that has a problem.

I dont play people I don't enjoy playing. That could be because of their personality or their gaming style. If someone feels that playing me is not fun I'm cool with that. To each his own.

Likewise if a friend asks me to tone my army down or play something new for a change I do so. Why? Because I'm not a dick.

Find better friends to game with. TFGs will always find ways to a use whatever rules you decide to go with. Cut them lose with no regrets ....

This would be a terrible rule. Instead of being called the "Anti-Power-Creep rule", it should be called the "MSU for the win rule".

Basically who cares what junk you have on the table, as long as you fill the table with as many dice as possible, you'll kill anything. Emperor Titan? No problem. My army of farmers with hurl pitchforks and throw stones until you die.

All such a rule does is replace one type of min-max play with another type.

If you want a real "Anti-Power-Creep rule" simply agree -- no models over X points or Y HP or Z base size. Or exclude SH/GMCs if that's what you don't like. Or invisibility. Or...

Traditio wrote:
Remind me: is playing nothing but tacticals inconsistent with the codex rules? Is that not an army list that the rules allow?

It's also legal, according to the rules, to bring a single 5-man tactical squad with no upgrades to a 500,000 point Apocalypse game. Should your ~75 point unit have a 50/50 chance of winning against an entire 500,000 point army? Of course not. The rules should not be balanced around the assumption that stupid lists get to win games. If you don't like that your army of nothing but tactical marines with no anti-tank weapons doesn't win very often then stop bringing a terrible list.

 CT GAMER wrote:

A friend of mine is a TFG. He will not hesitate to run a wraithknight in a 750 point game

Why do you call such people friends? Why do you play him?

Friend or not, it sounds like it would make for a pretty dumb game. At the very best, you'll end up with something that looks like the GW battle report where an imperial knight and a wraithknight charged at each other and bashed each other until one dies. At some point, you just say, buddy, this isn't the kind of game I'm looking for.

 Talys wrote:

 CT GAMER wrote:

A friend of mine is a TFG. He will not hesitate to run a wraithknight in a 750 point game

Why do you call such people friends? Why do you play him?

Friend or not, it sounds like it would make for a pretty dumb game. At the very best, you'll end up with something that looks like the GW battle report where an imperial knight and a wraithknight charged at each other and bashed each other until one dies. At some point, you just say, buddy, this isn't the kind of game I'm looking for.

It occurred to me afterwards that I actually understated my case. The friend of mine actually brought a wraithknight to a 500 point newb tournament.

Let that sink in.

Of course, of course, it was a tournament. Fine. I get that.

But he'd do that in a casual game too. He's a min-maxer. All the time. No matter what he's doing. No matter how good his opponent is. No matter what his opponent is using.

So. Yeah. At least in that case, my "everything wounds on a 6" rule sounds pretty good, doesn't it? Because feth his wraithknight.

If the problem is one person bringing a powerful LoW unit to a 500 point newbie tournament then perhaps the solution is to add a "no LoW in this event" rule to 500 point newbie tournaments instead of making massive rule changes that reduce the game to "how many lasguns can I fit into this army".

Edit: oh, it's you. No wonder you're refusing to consider the idea of bringing a better army, you're the guy who thinks it's a moral sin to spend too much money on a hobby and accused everyone who spends $200 on a MTG deck of being a "loser" who has to crush newbies to feed their ego. Are you going to give a 5,000 word essay on how we have a moral obligation to allow all of your tactical marines to auto-wound on 6s because Jesus said so?

 Peregrine wrote:
If the problem is one person bringing a powerful LoW unit to a 500 point newbie tournament then perhaps the solution is to add a "no LoW in this event" rule to 500 point newbie tournaments instead of making massive rule changes that reduce the game to "how many lasguns can I fit into this army".

Edit: oh, it's you. No wonder you're refusing to consider the idea of bringing a better army, you're the guy who thinks it's a moral sin to spend too much money on a hobby and accused everyone who spends $200 on a MTG deck of being a "loser" who has to crush newbies to feed their ego. Are you going to give a 5,000 word essay on how we have a moral obligation to allow all of your tactical marines to auto-wound on 6s because Jesus said so?

I don't think this kind of comment is appropriate, regardless of what person has posted in another thread.

Traditio wrote:

 Talys wrote:

 CT GAMER wrote:

A friend of mine is a TFG. He will not hesitate to run a wraithknight in a 750 point game

Why do you call such people friends? Why do you play him?

Friend or not, it sounds like it would make for a pretty dumb game. At the very best, you'll end up with something that looks like the GW battle report where an imperial knight and a wraithknight charged at each other and bashed each other until one dies. At some point, you just say, buddy, this isn't the kind of game I'm looking for.

It occurred to me afterwards that I actually understated my case. The friend of mine actually brought a wraithknight to a 500 point newb tournament.

Let that sink in.

Of course, of course, it was a tournament. Fine. I get that.

But he'd do that in a casual game too. He's a min-maxer. All the time. No matter what he's doing. No matter how good his opponent is. No matter what his opponent is using.

So. Yeah. At least in that case, my "everything wounds on a 6" rule sounds pretty good, doesn't it? Because feth his wraithknight.

Stop being friends with dick heads.

Traditio wrote:
Proposed rules:

Any roll of 6 "to hit" is an automatic hit, regardless of any other rules in play.

Any roll of 6 "to wound" shall cause a wound or the loss of a hull point, regardless of the strength of the weapon, armor value of the vehicle, toughness of the creature or any other rules in play.

Only saves 4+ and inferior can be re-rolled.

So... Necron decurion?

What about a middleground?

Stick to S vs T.
Formalize the rule, and allow it to overflow negatively. Like BS in WHFB.

The table could be filled out properly, but the math is obvious.

Wounding is done by a 4+, modified by the difference (S-T). Works out to:
+2 or better: 2+
+1: 3+
+0: 4+
-1: 5+
-2: 6+
[So far, that's just like current]
-3: 7+, which is 6+ followed by 2+
-4: 6+/3+
-5: 6+/4+
-6: 6+/5+
-7 or worse: 6+/6+

Now that Lasgun can hurt the WK. It just has a -5 modifier, which works out to be 6+/4+, or 1/12 hits. A Boltgun has a 1-4, which is a 6+/3+, or 1/9 chance to wound.

Now, lighter stuff isn't *literally* immune, but can take quite a bit.

I still think it would be counterproductive, but it'd be better than flat wounding on a 6+.

(Note - it works out to be the BS table at [(-1)(x-3)], so the math is well known.)

I miss the WHFB BS modifiers and granularity.