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 Azazelx wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
What I think is an interesting implication is the likely stronger refocusing of CSM around the big 4 Daemon Primarchs. I don't think GW wants any semblance of Chaos Legions in the 40k era. Black Legion is now really a mishmosh of the most dedicated Chaos Marines who have come together from any legion and where the only other flavor GW prescribes is non-Legion renegades like Crimson Slaughter and KDK. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next CSM codex they outright say besides Black Legion there are no "Chaos Legions." -Not saying its a good thing, just the trajectory GW is on.

Which makes zero sense when you look at the actual models and rules. Like what happened to their storm bolters? An item so common that the Imperium outfits their fething shipping containers with them, yet the Crimson Slaughter couldn't manage to maintain theirs? A huge part of CSM flavor comes from the fact that they use Heresy-era Legion equipment. But wait! They're not Legions. Makes no sense.

It's a tricky one - striking the balance between (Chaos) Renegade Marines and their loyalist brothers. Otherwise Renegades could very easily become Marines++ with everything that the Loyalists have, PLUS Daemonic allies and cool Chaos-flavoured toys. I mean, where do we draw the line? Storm Bolters or Centurions? I agree that there should be something, but it's tricky trying to define something rules-wise that works for post-heresy chapters - between the guys just declared Excommunicate Traitoris last week and the Astral Claws/Red Corsairs or where chapters like the Relictors fit in.

Which is totally fine. CSM can be marines++ ruleswise on an individual basis as log as there is a higher points cost to level it out.
It's kind of to be expected exactly because they are basicly the same as loyalist marines except they get daemonic power boosts to boot.

And to an extent that already exists. A CSM squad with mark of Nurgle is basicly a more expensive yet tougher version of a SM tactical squad. However, the difference in power level lies in two things. First of all, SM just have more and better equipment. However, and this to me is the more important part, while CSM theoretically have these daemonic powers, they actually have little influence on the game.

T5 marines are obviously objectively better than T4 marines by raw numbers. However, the abundance of Str7+ and focus on high volume of fire has made the T5 marine mostly redundant. The result is that the T5 marine is tougher on paprr, but rarely is on the table.

The other marks suffer the same problem.
Mark of Tzeentch is a good buff in and of itself. However, the game has shifted and we see the usr of weapons with low AP but high Str and number of shots is becomig widespread. The result is that invul saves have become less important.
Case in point are terminators. They've got a good armor save and their weakness is suposed to be AP2. However, their invul save has become less valuable because it's not hard and most often more effective to put a large amount of wounds on them so they'll fail a armor save. And since invul saves aren't as valuable, neither are buffs to them.

Mark of Khorne and Slaanesh are just inherently good buffs, but melee is just a straight up unfeasable approach to armybuilding compared to shooting. So these marks become redundant because they support a nigh unusable playstyle.

 General Kroll wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Most of the not dead loyalists make as much sense returning as Russ. The only exception being the "dead" but healing Guileman. As he actually supposedly died....

I think the difficulty of the other loyalist primarchs is that its alot easier to say all the Chaos Primarchs decided to launch an offensive than it is to say... after 10,000 years out of pure coincidence this primarch awakens, and this primarch decides to get over his mental health issues, and this primarch... etc. I think bringing the Daemon Primarchs works well in the narrative and heightens tension, but the loyalist primarchs returning is something that should take time.

What I think is an interesting implication is the likely stronger refocusing of CSM around the big 4 Daemon Primarchs. I don't think GW wants any semblance of Chaos Legions in the 40k era. Black Legion is now really a mishmosh of the most dedicated Chaos Marines who have come together from any legion and where the only other flavor GW prescribes is non-Legion renegades like Crimson Slaughter and KDK. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next CSM codex they outright say besides Black Legion there are no "Chaos Legions." -Not saying its a good thing, just the trajectory GW is on.

Yeah, I can't see the loyalist Primarchs returning en mass! Vulkan is supposedly a prisoner of that necron dude isn't he? Corax went nuts and flew off on his own. The Lion and Guilliman are both in situe at home. They aren't in a position to get the band back together. In fact I don't even see Russ coming back for Fenris 2, I think Magnus will come back there will be some serious gak going down and I am hoping he takes some names. Who knows we could even see Fenris becoming a Daemon world or something? With a future supplement being about Russ returning to free it from Chaos.

I dunno on Vulkan being a prisoner of Trazyn.
The dude is said to be in baroque armor. That sounds more like Dorn to me.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Most of the not dead loyalists make as much sense returning as Russ. The only exception being the "dead" but healing Guileman. As he actually supposedly died....

I think the difficulty of the other loyalist primarchs is that its alot easier to say all the Chaos Primarchs decided to launch an offensive than it is to say... after 10,000 years out of pure coincidence this primarch awakens, and this primarch decides to get over his mental health issues, and this primarch... etc. I think bringing the Daemon Primarchs works well in the narrative and heightens tension, but the loyalist primarchs returning is something that should take time.

What I think is an interesting implication is the likely stronger refocusing of CSM around the big 4 Daemon Primarchs. I don't think GW wants any semblance of Chaos Legions in the 40k era. Black Legion is now really a mishmosh of the most dedicated Chaos Marines who have come together from any legion and where the only other flavor GW prescribes is non-Legion renegades like Crimson Slaughter and KDK. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next CSM codex they outright say besides Black Legion there are no "Chaos Legions." -Not saying its a good thing, just the trajectory GW is on.

Yeah, I can't see the loyalist Primarchs returning en mass! Vulkan is supposedly a prisoner of that necron dude isn't he? Corax went nuts and flew off on his own. The Lion and Guilliman are both in situe at home. They aren't in a position to get the band back together. In fact I don't even see Russ coming back for Fenris 2, I think Magnus will come back there will be some serious gak going down and I am hoping he takes some names. Who knows we could even see Fenris becoming a Daemon world or something? With a future supplement being about Russ returning to free it from Chaos.

I dunno on Vulkan being a prisoner of Trazyn.
The dude is said to be in baroque armor. That sounds more like Dorn to me.

I've never understood why everyone thinks that's a Primarch. It could be literally any old Marine with fancy armour.

DaPino wrote:
Which is totally fine. CSM can be marines++ ruleswise on an individual basis as log as there is a higher points cost to level it out.

He's refering more to syndrome of having same options AND more.

Imagine you have codex X. It has units A, B, C.

Then you introduce codex Y. It has units A, B, C, D.

By definition codex Y is superior to codex X. There's no reason whatsoever to field codex X when you have codex that has same units plus one more. Even if unit D is inefficient using codex Y is not going to hurt you.

If chaos gets access to all the toys SM has and daemonic stuff as well...

And it's kinda hard to make CSM troopers cost more because there's another unit in the codex...

This has been problem with dark angels and blood angels. At their core they used to be codex chapters but with couple extra units. For example how you make basic marine codex meaningful if dark angels have same stuff(logically they basically should have...) but also have deathwing and ravenwing units? Even if those suck you don't have to use.

At least now chapter tactics add some reason though that adds whole lot of new issues(codex hopping, driving certain chapters even more into certain shape like white scars that are now all bikes despite tactical marines being core of them etc).

pm713 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Most of the not dead loyalists make as much sense returning as Russ. The only exception being the "dead" but healing Guileman. As he actually supposedly died....

I think the difficulty of the other loyalist primarchs is that its alot easier to say all the Chaos Primarchs decided to launch an offensive than it is to say... after 10,000 years out of pure coincidence this primarch awakens, and this primarch decides to get over his mental health issues, and this primarch... etc. I think bringing the Daemon Primarchs works well in the narrative and heightens tension, but the loyalist primarchs returning is something that should take time.

What I think is an interesting implication is the likely stronger refocusing of CSM around the big 4 Daemon Primarchs. I don't think GW wants any semblance of Chaos Legions in the 40k era. Black Legion is now really a mishmosh of the most dedicated Chaos Marines who have come together from any legion and where the only other flavor GW prescribes is non-Legion renegades like Crimson Slaughter and KDK. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next CSM codex they outright say besides Black Legion there are no "Chaos Legions." -Not saying its a good thing, just the trajectory GW is on.

Yeah, I can't see the loyalist Primarchs returning en mass! Vulkan is supposedly a prisoner of that necron dude isn't he? Corax went nuts and flew off on his own. The Lion and Guilliman are both in situe at home. They aren't in a position to get the band back together. In fact I don't even see Russ coming back for Fenris 2, I think Magnus will come back there will be some serious gak going down and I am hoping he takes some names. Who knows we could even see Fenris becoming a Daemon world or something? With a future supplement being about Russ returning to free it from Chaos.

I dunno on Vulkan being a prisoner of Trazyn.
The dude is said to be in baroque armor. That sounds more like Dorn to me.

I've never understood why everyone thinks that's a Primarch. It could be literally any old Marine with fancy armour.

I always thought it was a captain general of the Adeptus Custodes

tneva82 wrote:

DaPino wrote:
Which is totally fine. CSM can be marines++ ruleswise on an individual basis as log as there is a higher points cost to level it out.

He's refering more to syndrome of having same options AND more.

Imagine you have codex X. It has units A, B, C.

Then you introduce codex Y. It has units A, B, C, D.

By definition codex Y is superior to codex X. There's no reason whatsoever to field codex X when you have codex that has same units plus one more. Even if unit D is inefficient using codex Y is not going to hurt you.

If chaos gets access to all the toys SM has and daemonic stuff as well...

And it's kinda hard to make CSM troopers cost more because there's another unit in the codex...

This has been problem with dark angels and blood angels. At their core they used to be codex chapters but with couple extra units. For example how you make basic marine codex meaningful if dark angels have same stuff(logically they basically should have...) but also have deathwing and ravenwing units? Even if those suck you don't have to use.

At least now chapter tactics add some reason though that adds whole lot of new issues(codex hopping, driving certain chapters even more into certain shape like white scars that are now all bikes despite tactical marines being core of them etc).

No one is asking for Marines++, or 'Codex Marines + Spikes' or anything of that nature...

The problem since 2007 and on has simply been that GW (or rather, Jervis) have simply ignored the fact that above all else, Chaos Marines are simply yet another flavour of what is still a basic Space Marine army.

Chaos Marines are the game's worst army, simply because GW refuses to give them the same basic rules requirements that make Loyalists work... 40k at a fundamental level punishes any army that's composed of elite infantry who are generalists, vs. anyone who can take specialisation and/or redundancy.
Marines simply pay up front too much for their wide array of opportunity costs, hence the development of things like Chapter Tactics, PotMS, invuln saves for Termies, ect...

More so than simply being 3-4 editions out of touch with the game, Chaos Marines suffer because they're not given ANY of the basic rules that allow Marines to make-up for their inflated opportunity costs, while also suffering from the game's worst case of wargear creep.

On the fluff side of things, it also makes 0 sense that while no longer the organised Legions of old, Night Lords should still fight in a completely manner than Iron Warriors, while somehow, the Alpha Legion is suddenly just as fanatical & dedicated to the Dark Gods as the Word Bearers!

Chaos players in general don't want 'Legion Tactics' & new wargear options to simply become the next Eldar++. Rather, we want Legion Tactics because it fits the background of the army, AND, having those additional rules effectively 'for free', is the only way to make the army playable.
Just look at the difference between the basic Land Raider for Loyalists vs. Chaos...
The former has the added critical PotMS rule that allows what is a combination of main battle tank + heavy assault transport to viably function, in a rules set that otherwise doesn't allow for such a concept. The latter doesn't, and hence, is to the point that it's unplayable due to the opportunity costs that actively punish the player for taking it.

So is there any actual news, or is this just the E626 CSM Pity Party again?

 Kanluwen wrote:
So is there any actual news, or is this just the E626 CSM Pity Party again?

Is there any actual news or just whining about Chaos players' hopes for the future?

 Kanluwen wrote:
So is there any actual news, or is this just the E626 CSM Pity Party again?

I'm gonna make a wild guess on door number two...given that the same individual just graced another thread with a complaint about rules that literally have not even been leaked yet.

 Lord Corellia wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
So is there any actual news, or is this just the E626 CSM Pity Party again?

Is there any actual news or just whining about Chaos players' hopes for the future?

There's "talking about your hopes for the future" and then there's taking every chance to complain about the present and past.

 Kanluwen wrote:
So is there any actual news, or is this just the E626 CSM Pity Party again?

Is there thread even remotedly related to 40k that isn't 2?

Experiment 626 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

DaPino wrote:
Which is totally fine. CSM can be marines++ ruleswise on an individual basis as log as there is a higher points cost to level it out.

He's refering more to syndrome of having same options AND more.

Imagine you have codex X. It has units A, B, C.

Then you introduce codex Y. It has units A, B, C, D.

By definition codex Y is superior to codex X. There's no reason whatsoever to field codex X when you have codex that has same units plus one more. Even if unit D is inefficient using codex Y is not going to hurt you.

If chaos gets access to all the toys SM has and daemonic stuff as well...

And it's kinda hard to make CSM troopers cost more because there's another unit in the codex...

This has been problem with dark angels and blood angels. At their core they used to be codex chapters but with couple extra units. For example how you make basic marine codex meaningful if dark angels have same stuff(logically they basically should have...) but also have deathwing and ravenwing units? Even if those suck you don't have to use.

At least now chapter tactics add some reason though that adds whole lot of new issues(codex hopping, driving certain chapters even more into certain shape like white scars that are now all bikes despite tactical marines being core of them etc).

No one is asking for Marines++, or 'Codex Marines + Spikes' or anything of that nature...

The problem since 2007 and on has simply been that GW (or rather, Jervis) have simply ignored the fact that above all else, Chaos Marines are simply yet another flavour of what is still a basic Space Marine army.

Chaos Marines are the game's worst army, simply because GW refuses to give them the same basic rules requirements that make Loyalists work... 40k at a fundamental level punishes any army that's composed of elite infantry who are generalists, vs. anyone who can take specialisation and/or redundancy.
Marines simply pay up front too much for their wide array of opportunity costs, hence the development of things like Chapter Tactics, PotMS, invuln saves for Termies, ect...

More so than simply being 3-4 editions out of touch with the game, Chaos Marines suffer because they're not given ANY of the basic rules that allow Marines to make-up for their inflated opportunity costs, while also suffering from the game's worst case of wargear creep.

On the fluff side of things, it also makes 0 sense that while no longer the organised Legions of old, Night Lords should still fight in a completely manner than Iron Warriors, while somehow, the Alpha Legion is suddenly just as fanatical & dedicated to the Dark Gods as the Word Bearers!

Chaos players in general don't want 'Legion Tactics' & new wargear options to simply become the next Eldar++. Rather, we want Legion Tactics because it fits the background of the army, AND, having those additional rules effectively 'for free', is the only way to make the army playable.
Just look at the difference between the basic Land Raider for Loyalists vs. Chaos...
The former has the added critical PotMS rule that allows what is a combination of main battle tank + heavy assault transport to viably function, in a rules set that otherwise doesn't allow for such a concept. The latter doesn't, and hence, is to the point that it's unplayable due to the opportunity costs that actively punish the player for taking it.

I think also that unlike the Chapters the traitor legions now have a rather warband structure. If a chapter goes traitor, infighting is bound to happen as they are no longer beholden to the imperuim. and then you probably need level of fallen.
You could have a chapter that just want to defend humanity and see the Imperuim as stagnant doing more harm then good, yes they have gone rogue. but they have not gone over to chaos exactly have they.

Then you get a chapter or something subtlety influenced by chaos, maybe some of its high ranking members are but the rest still believe that they are not tainted, maybe they even think they are still following the codex astartes.

Then you get those who think they haven't fallen but have. maybe they are the Military arm of the Horosians or Xanthanites, Yet they could look as evil as can be but still remain pure of heart.

Then you get people like Huron, grudgingly pushed into chaos ( unless the story's changed) an arrogant leader ultimately damned his followers to darkness.

Finally you get the traitor legions. some are obviously more devout and each have their weaknesses and strengths. But its very rare we actually get more than a nod. Look at the dark apostle, and the ironsmith, they've become generic now. any Legion or Warband could get one.

Now the same goes for Iron fathers and once upon a time the iron hands did not have a chapter master, yet now they do depending on what book you read.

Chaos used to be a favorite of mine, now i simply think of them as spiky 2nd class space marines. And that is a shame as so much could be done.

A single marine from a traitor legion would have a multitude of skills, Hes been alive centuries. Hes basically a commando, yet they are never ever going to be done that way because they do not want the bad ones being better than the non, but they should be, they should be expensive in points but be very very mean. If there were thousands of you now like 100, maybe or less, you would pick up plasma pistols, anything wouldn't you?, no ill just have this boltgun and ignore the 100's of weapons that have dropped and are still functioning.

You need meat shields fine, cultists, or dregs or mutants, whatever, but Give CSM what they deserve to be. There is a balance and I honestly do not see it coming.



You get a book that makes nobody happy. The chaos book should be big yes but, and a big but here, if chaos got the treatment it needed it should be, it needs to be or they are a sub par faction that, plays second fiddle to newer less trained recruits.

 Lord Corellia wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
So is there any actual news, or is this just the E626 CSM Pity Party again?

Is there any actual news or just whining about Chaos players' hopes for the future?

Chaos players aren't allowed to tell the truth or make sense according to some.

Every time we ask or dare to hope for something, the vocal Chaos-haters will always take it as either needless whining at imaginary problems, or else it's just us filthy Chaos players automatically wanting to be OP & auto-win like we were in the 3.5ed days.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Lord Corellia wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
So is there any actual news, or is this just the E626 CSM Pity Party again?

Is there any actual news or just whining about Chaos players' hopes for the future?

Chaos players aren't allowed to tell the truth or make sense according to some.

Every time we ask or dare to hope for something, the vocal Chaos-haters will always take it as either needless whining at imaginary problems, or else it's just us filthy Chaos players automatically wanting to be OP & auto-win like we were in the 3.5ed days.

Right, because that's why I made the comment I did.

Has nothing to do with threads basically getting hijacked by your complaints.

If you want to have a go at discussing what you think is wrong with the book or what you would like to see in a future one? By all means, make a thread for it!

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Lord Corellia wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
So is there any actual news, or is this just the E626 CSM Pity Party again?

Is there any actual news or just whining about Chaos players' hopes for the future?

There's "talking about your hopes for the future" and then there's taking every chance to complain about the present and past.

Out of interest, is there any way for people to discuss a subject in anything less than 100% glowing terms that you'd find acceptable Kan? Because most of your contributions these days seem to be complaining about other people being off topic, or not discussing the topic in a way you like, or continuing to discuss a topic after you personally have stopped and no longer want to - come on chief, you used to put some effort into your rampant contrarianism, it's like you're not even trying these days...

 Kanluwen wrote:
So is there any actual news, or is this just the E626 CSM Pity Party again?

So is that an honest question, or are you just being needlessly combative? If the former is true, I think a quick scan of the new posts allows for an answer in the negative.

The problem with CSM is and will always be the 3.5 codex. The 3.5 codex made CSM into super cool legion badasses and the studio is now literally terrified of allowing Chaos Legions in the IP, both in background and in rules. Let's face it. Chaos Legions are awesome. Think a SM chapter is kewl? Well a SM Legion is 1000x kewler! Too bad they don't exist anymore! Unless you're Chaos, that is! Oh and did I mention we still have our primarchs? And they're all immortal ultrabadass daemons too?

So basically with the 3.5 codex CSM committed the cardinal sin of villainy - the villians became cooler than the heroes. As punishment they will be forever damned to mediocrity and blah. And everyone who got into the army with 3.5 will be forever left scratching their head wondering where their badass army went.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Lord Corellia wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
So is there any actual news, or is this just the E626 CSM Pity Party again?

Is there any actual news or just whining about Chaos players' hopes for the future?

There's "talking about your hopes for the future" and then there's taking every chance to complain about the present and past.

So it isn't so much about being off-topic (which he was, sort of) but rather a personal axe you have to grind with Experiment626? Yeah, he is bitter. Yeah, he is vocal about it. But what you take for endless bitching and a "pity party" I see as passion. He's a CSM player and he's passionate about them. No other army save Sisters of Battle has been neglected as long as CSM and none save Space Marines and the Guard play such a large role in the lore. Many people who played during Chaos' glory days were fortunate enough to have alternate armies, but some were not. Many of those have likely left the game for comparatively greener pastures, but some have stayed. And yes, they're unhappy with the state of things. I agree that it's sometimes like a broken record, but I can just skip over those posts and try and either add something else to the conversation or move on to another thread.

And if it *IS* about being off topic, then you've gotta realize that every thread goes off topic to some degree. Especially these news & rumours threads where there's a lull between heresay and confirmation. A thread about an upcoming Chaos veering off into what we hope for future releases isn't as grievous a transgression as it veering off into a discussion about my pet turtles and how their breath smells like turtle food, for example.

 Lord Corellia wrote:
So it isn't so much about being off-topic (which he was, sort of) but rather a personal axe you have to grind with Experiment626? Yeah, he is bitter. Yeah, he is vocal about it. But what you take for endless bitching and a "pity party" I see as passion. He's a CSM player and he's passionate about them. No other army save Sisters of Battle has been neglected as long as CSM and none save Space Marines and the Guard play such a large role in the lore. Many people who played during Chaos' glory days were fortunate enough to have alternate armies, but some were not. Many of those have likely left the game for comparatively greener pastures, but some have stayed. And yes, they're unhappy with the state of things. I agree that it's sometimes like a broken record, but I can just skip over those posts and try and either add something else to the conversation or move on to another thread.

And if it *IS* about being off topic, then you've gotta realize that every thread goes off topic to some degree. Especially these news & rumours threads where there's a lull between heresay and confirmation. A thread about an upcoming Chaos veering off into what we hope for future releases isn't as grievous a transgression as it veering off into a discussion about my pet turtles and how their breath smells like turtle food, for example.

You see passion, I see automated macro copy&paste that gets pasted automatically into every single thread remotely related to 40k.

You don't need to even read his texts anymore. He simply keeps saying same things over and over again. Seen them once, you know 100% what he's going to say in future.

tneva82 wrote:

 Lord Corellia wrote:
So it isn't so much about being off-topic (which he was, sort of) but rather a personal axe you have to grind with Experiment626? Yeah, he is bitter. Yeah, he is vocal about it. But what you take for endless bitching and a "pity party" I see as passion. He's a CSM player and he's passionate about them. No other army save Sisters of Battle has been neglected as long as CSM and none save Space Marines and the Guard play such a large role in the lore. Many people who played during Chaos' glory days were fortunate enough to have alternate armies, but some were not. Many of those have likely left the game for comparatively greener pastures, but some have stayed. And yes, they're unhappy with the state of things. I agree that it's sometimes like a broken record, but I can just skip over those posts and try and either add something else to the conversation or move on to another thread.

And if it *IS* about being off topic, then you've gotta realize that every thread goes off topic to some degree. Especially these news & rumours threads where there's a lull between heresay and confirmation. A thread about an upcoming Chaos veering off into what we hope for future releases isn't as grievous a transgression as it veering off into a discussion about my pet turtles and how their breath smells like turtle food, for example.

You see passion, I see automated macro copy&paste that gets pasted automatically into every single thread remotely related to 40k.

You don't need to even read his texts anymore. He simply keeps saying same things over and over again. Seen them once, you know 100% what he's going to say in future.

If it really bothers you that much, Dakka does have an ignore feature.

Back OT, here are my predictions for this release:

1. Magnus will cost 999 pts.
2. His daemon primarch rules from GW will be worse than his primarch rules from FW.
3. Thousand Sons rules will remain unchanged.
4. CSM will get a decurion. The bonuses will be Hatred, reroll Chaos Boons and reroll Warlord Trait if you roll on the CSM table.
5. There will be a formation consisting of 9 units of Thousand Sons. It will give all their attacks Warpflame.

I hope they release Russ and bring back the primarchs. The models would be fantastic and would be a good excuse to advance the timeline and bring out new kits. Wasn't Russ one of the first 40k models back in rogue trader days?

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Lord Corellia wrote:
So it isn't so much about being off-topic (which he was, sort of) but rather a personal axe you have to grind with Experiment626? Yeah, he is bitter. Yeah, he is vocal about it. But what you take for endless bitching and a "pity party" I see as passion. He's a CSM player and he's passionate about them. No other army save Sisters of Battle has been neglected as long as CSM and none save Space Marines and the Guard play such a large role in the lore. Many people who played during Chaos' glory days were fortunate enough to have alternate armies, but some were not. Many of those have likely left the game for comparatively greener pastures, but some have stayed. And yes, they're unhappy with the state of things. I agree that it's sometimes like a broken record, but I can just skip over those posts and try and either add something else to the conversation or move on to another thread.

And if it *IS* about being off topic, then you've gotta realize that every thread goes off topic to some degree. Especially these news & rumours threads where there's a lull between heresay and confirmation. A thread about an upcoming Chaos veering off into what we hope for future releases isn't as grievous a transgression as it veering off into a discussion about my pet turtles and how their breath smells like turtle food, for example.

You see passion, I see automated macro copy&paste that gets pasted automatically into every single thread remotely related to 40k.

You don't need to even read his texts anymore. He simply keeps saying same things over and over again. Seen them once, you know 100% what he's going to say in future.

If it really bothers you that much, Dakka does have an ignore feature.

Back OT, here are my predictions for this release:

1. Magnus will cost 999 pts.
2. His daemon primarch rules from GW will be worse than his primarch rules from FW.
3. Thousand Sons rules will remain unchanged.
4. CSM will get a decurion. The bonuses will be Hatred, reroll Chaos Boons and reroll Warlord Trait if you roll on the CSM table.
5. There will be a formation consisting of 9 units of Thousand Sons. It will give all their attacks Warpflame.

You're gonna jinx it even more than it probably already is. 1 is so probable that it isn't even funny. Especially given how Aetaos'rau'keres already costs that much. I'd be genuinely surprised if he DIDN'T cost 999.
And 3 to 5 feels scarily accurate. Although I'd expect free gifts of mutation rather then hatred, though both seem to make equally little sense.

Meanwhile I'm praying they at least get their the immunity to strength 4 and below back.

NOTE: The topic here is "Warzone Fenris - Part II - Plastic Rubric Marines & Magnus the Red Daemon Primarch".

More of that and less of...everything else.

Roknar wrote:

Spoiler:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Lord Corellia wrote:
So it isn't so much about being off-topic (which he was, sort of) but rather a personal axe you have to grind with Experiment626? Yeah, he is bitter. Yeah, he is vocal about it. But what you take for endless bitching and a "pity party" I see as passion. He's a CSM player and he's passionate about them. No other army save Sisters of Battle has been neglected as long as CSM and none save Space Marines and the Guard play such a large role in the lore. Many people who played during Chaos' glory days were fortunate enough to have alternate armies, but some were not. Many of those have likely left the game for comparatively greener pastures, but some have stayed. And yes, they're unhappy with the state of things. I agree that it's sometimes like a broken record, but I can just skip over those posts and try and either add something else to the conversation or move on to another thread.

And if it *IS* about being off topic, then you've gotta realize that every thread goes off topic to some degree. Especially these news & rumours threads where there's a lull between heresay and confirmation. A thread about an upcoming Chaos veering off into what we hope for future releases isn't as grievous a transgression as it veering off into a discussion about my pet turtles and how their breath smells like turtle food, for example.

You see passion, I see automated macro copy&paste that gets pasted automatically into every single thread remotely related to 40k.

You don't need to even read his texts anymore. He simply keeps saying same things over and over again. Seen them once, you know 100% what he's going to say in future.

If it really bothers you that much, Dakka does have an ignore feature.

Back OT, here are my predictions for this release:

1. Magnus will cost 999 pts.
2. His daemon primarch rules from GW will be worse than his primarch rules from FW.
3. Thousand Sons rules will remain unchanged.
4. CSM will get a decurion. The bonuses will be Hatred, reroll Chaos Boons and reroll Warlord Trait if you roll on the CSM table.
5. There will be a formation consisting of 9 units of Thousand Sons. It will give all their attacks Warpflame.

You're gonna jinx it even more than it probably already is. 1 is so probable that it isn't even funny. Especially given how Aetaos'rau'keres already costs that much. I'd be genuinely surprised if he DIDN'T cost 999.
And 3 to 5 feels scarily accurate. Although I'd expect free gifts of mutation rather then hatred, though both seem to make equally little sense.

Meanwhile I'm praying they at least get their the immunity to strength 4 and below back.

Ah, but you forgot it'll be 999pts AND no GMC status, so he can be easily taken out by the big bad 'D'.

And here's an idea, what if taking Magnus is how GW will give actual buffs to Thousand Sons?!

So Loyalists will get their Chapter Tactics baked into every model, while the Chaos versions will instead center entirely around having a 300-500+ points sink, which once it (likely very quickly) copes it, you can say bye-bye to ALL your built-in bonuses!

I think bringing back primarchs is a duff idea and one that has a whiff of "the creative well is dry". These are, within the background, mythical Demi gods and to see them leading a force of 35 marines, a rhino and a land speeder is a bit......underwhelming.

If it's mega boss vs mega boss, then fair enough, but do the current rules engine fit this level of power character appropriately into the game? They certainly weren't designed to and are creaking at the edges trying to fit all this big stuff in.

Game needs a damned good clean and bleaching, then a decision made on what it wants to be. Maybe an End Times is a good thing to happen. Start again and do away with legacy issues.

If they make magnus 999 points just for the fluff of it, all of his stats better be 9 just for the fluff of it. Also mastery level 9 just for the fluff of it. Also 9 weapons to choose from and 9 disciplines to choose from. Auto charges 9".

He should also cost 999 dollars as well as your first 9 children. and every csm player in the world who wants to use him is forced to pay that amount in 9 installments over 9 months on the 9th of every month. You are also only allowed to buy 9 of the models. Can't buy 1 or 2 or 7 or 13. If you buy 18 or 27 of them you must refer to them as "groups of 9" otherwise a gw employee will kick you out of the store and lash you with a 9 tailed whip. Magnus cannot be included in lists unless there's 9 of him. You auto lose the game if less than 9 of him are on the table at any point, or if any of their stats are dropped below 9 or raised above it. Any units included with a magnus list have to be in 9 units of 9 models. If you break one of your magnus models, 9 lords of change will materialize in front of you and whisk you away to GW HQ, where your mind will be split into 9 and the fractions will begin work immediately as GW's new rule writers exclusively for chaos for the next 9 years.

Disclaimer: I'm not a fan of the "Hey guys! Deeeeerp! Sacred numbers are their points! Deeeeerp!" philosophy. It's a brilliant showcase of GW not taking their game as seriously as their customers do. In seriousness, I don't expect magnus to cost that much points. For one thing, he hates tzeentch. For another thing, they soon have to do something to keep from pushing csm players away from their products. If he costs that many points it doesn't matter how good he is... he will still be a mostly unattractive choice, because people like to use their collections in games.

I know I'm getting close to simply not paying attention to csm rumours anymore. It's getting difficult to give 9 damns about them any longer.

The whole sacred numbers as a point cost thing pretty much ruined FW's named greater daemons and the GW Khorne Lawn Mower... Why is something that is fictionally beneficial such a point bloated disadvantage? IF it's something GW wants to insist on maybe just make it the overall point cost of some fixed formation of Magnus and his closest sorcerers.

It's a daemon primarch, if any unit should be that expensive, it's a daemon primarch. I'm not an expert on lore but from what I understand they are an order of magnitude stronger than their mortal versions, which were already super powerful. Anything less than 500 points would be insulting.

Considering most FW Primarchs are 350-500 points in cost (depending on how tough they are, the buffs they give, etc.), Daemon Magnus should cost at least 100-150 points more than that if he gets the lowest amount of treatment deserved.

But he'll be 999 without enough rules & stats to justifiy it because KAYOS.

If he's 999 pts and Toughness 5 I quit.