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Made in ca
Grovelin' Grot Rigger





Canada

Hi Team - a recent point came up on a Facebook group I'm on and my googling and rules reading couldn't land on an answer:

Where are the rules for Flyers that have deep strike? This doesn't seem to be covered in the BRB - and most IA books I'm familiar with only list the trait, but don't explain it.

Any ideas? References to books would be great! Looking for something up to date with 7th edition.

Cheers!
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 svep84 wrote:
Hi Team - a recent point came up on a Facebook group I'm on and my googling and rules reading couldn't land on an answer:

Where are the rules for Flyers that have deep strike? This doesn't seem to be covered in the BRB - and most IA books I'm familiar with only list the trait, but don't explain it.

Any ideas? References to books would be great! Looking for something up to date with 7th edition.

Cheers!


If a flyer has the Deep Strike rule, you look at the Deep Strike rules in the BRB.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in ca
Grovelin' Grot Rigger





Canada

Yeah I did that - there are no overt references to Flyers in the BRB Deep Strike rules - they call out vehicles, and transports, but no flyers.

Another thing is that there are no Codex deep strike capable flyers that I know of. The only ones I'm aware of are from Imperial Armour. But the only Imperial Armour books I know are from 6th edition, and don't specify it either.

I'm content with how you're calling it, but, it seems that it's a grey zone.
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





I don't know what you confused about? If a Flyer has Deep Strike it can choose to arrive via deep strike
   
Made in us
Daring Dark Eldar Raider Rider




The Mid-Western Front

You could do it with a Necron Night Sycthe if you put an HQ with the veil or Vargard in it.... hmmm interesting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But I have no idea how that would work.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/14 22:46:58


P'tah Dynasty
Iron Warriors
Dark Eldar

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Made in us
Douglas Bader






How exactly do you suspect that flyers work differently from any other deep striking vehicle?

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Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor





St. Louis, Missouri USA

There are still a lot of forgeworld flyers with deep strike.

 
   
Made in ca
Grovelin' Grot Rigger





Canada

Well there's some oddness around it - namely there are no Codex (ie: GW published) flyers that can do it - and the BRB doesn't specify Flyers... which you can appreciate are unique in their characteristics and abilities.

FW through the IA books seem to be the only source of deep striking flyers - so I'm wondering if someone knows if they have ever specified how it's supposed to work: ie can I disembark? Declare hover vs zoom? Do I need to move or does it count as "at combat speed." These sorts of things : )

That being said, if you assume it's treated like a vehicle, then that works for me just fine.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also found this nugget in the Xiphon Interceptor experimental rules on Forge World. I'm wondering if it's appeared in an "official" IA book any where? Because this sucks bad for Elysians for example:

Flyers and the Deep Strike Special Rule

As well as arriving via the usual Reserves method, some Flyers also have the ability to
deploy via Deep Strike, representing a vertical ‘dive’ onto the battlefield. If the Flyer in
question has the Hover type, the controlling player must declare before the Deep Strike
is attempted whether the Flyer is Zooming or being treated as a Fast Skimmer. If using
Hover mode, the rules for Deep Strike apply as standard. If using a Zooming Deep Strike,
Flyers deploying via Deep Strike count as making a Zoom move and having moved at
Cruising speed (18") on the turn they arrive, but are not moved any further in the turn
in which they are deployed. They cannot evade, go Flat Out, drop bombs or deploy
transported units on the turn in which they arrive. On subsequent turns, the Flyer is free
to operate as normal. This is a risky proposition for an aircraft and a test of a pilot’s skill,
and so the usual rules for Deep Strike mishaps apply even though the Flyer is notionally at
a higher altitude than is normally the case.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Xiphon_Interceptor.pdf

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/14 22:59:16


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

A flyer is a vehicle, as such it uses the DS rules just like any other vehicle.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Not as Good as a Minion





Astonished of Heck

FireSkullz2 wrote:You could do it with a Necron Night Sycthe if you put an HQ with the veil or Vargard in it.... hmmm interesting.

No, you couldn't. The Veil and Obyron only take the IC and his unit with them, not their Transport. The only Wargear I know of that grants Deep Strike to the Transport a unit is Embarked upon is the Dark Eldar WebWay Portal.

Peregrine wrote:How exactly do you suspect that flyers work differently from any other deep striking vehicle?

Maybe like Drop Pods?

DeathReaper wrote:A flyer is a vehicle, as such it uses the DS rules just like any other vehicle.

Pretty much this. Better hope it has Hover, though, otherwise some of the rules get a little wonky.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





I understand it to mean that they deep strike like any other vehicle would; i.e. Declare facing and whether hover/zooming. In either case they may fire normally but that's about it. The only reason I would ever think to deep strike a flyer would be to get LoS they couldn't otherwise achieve by coming in from the board edge.

Edit: the reason that some flyers have deep strike still is because there were specifics for it in 6th edition. Now there aren't, so don't expect anything special.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/15 02:00:48


 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought





 svep84 wrote:
Well there's some oddness around it - namely there are no Codex (ie: GW published) flyers that can do it - and the BRB doesn't specify Flyers... which you can appreciate are unique in their characteristics and abilities.

FW through the IA books seem to be the only source of deep striking flyers - so I'm wondering if someone knows if they have ever specified how it's supposed to work: ie can I disembark? Declare hover vs zoom? Do I need to move or does it count as "at combat speed." These sorts of things : )

That being said, if you assume it's treated like a vehicle, then that works for me just fine.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also found this nugget in the Xiphon Interceptor experimental rules on Forge World. I'm wondering if it's appeared in an "official" IA book any where? Because this sucks bad for Elysians for example:

Flyers and the Deep Strike Special Rule

As well as arriving via the usual Reserves method, some Flyers also have the ability to
deploy via Deep Strike, representing a vertical ‘dive’ onto the battlefield. If the Flyer in
question has the Hover type, the controlling player must declare before the Deep Strike
is attempted whether the Flyer is Zooming or being treated as a Fast Skimmer. If using
Hover mode, the rules for Deep Strike apply as standard. If using a Zooming Deep Strike,
Flyers deploying via Deep Strike count as making a Zoom move and having moved at
Cruising speed (18") on the turn they arrive, but are not moved any further in the turn
in which they are deployed. They cannot evade, go Flat Out, drop bombs or deploy
transported units on the turn in which they arrive. On subsequent turns, the Flyer is free
to operate as normal. This is a risky proposition for an aircraft and a test of a pilot’s skill,
and so the usual rules for Deep Strike mishaps apply even though the Flyer is notionally at
a higher altitude than is normally the case.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Xiphon_Interceptor.pdf

That rule you quoted is taken from the Age of Darkness (Heresy era) rules. I've not seen it in an IA book anywhere.

"Three months? I'm going to go crazy …and I'm taking you with me!"
— Vala Mal Doran
 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut






The only confusion that I can see happening is people mistakenly applying movement rules from the skimmer section to deep strike deployment as a way to avoid deep strike deployment mishaps. However, deployment is not movement, so that does not work.

Unlike Cheese-Pods, deep striking fliers do need to find a space for their base and will need to be placed where they scatter to or take a mishap.

There are rules that clarify for different fliers with the DS rule at what speed they are counted as having moved when they deploy via DS.

   
Made in us
Not as Good as a Minion





Astonished of Heck

In 5th Edition, the Codex Flyer models were Fast Skimmers with Deep Strike. This change when 6th Edition hit and Flyers were introduced. Those Codex Flyer models had Deep Strike Errata'd out. FW already had Flyer rules running for quite some time, so including Deep Strike wasn't as much stretch for them.

 Stephanius wrote:
There are rules that clarify for different fliers with the DS rule at what speed they are counted as having moved when they deploy via DS.

So they specifically state what it means with each Flyer's entry? Otherwise they count as having moved Combat Speed just like any other Vehicle.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Stephanius wrote:
There are rules that clarify for different fliers with the DS rule at what speed they are counted as having moved when they deploy via DS.

So they specifically state what it means with each Flyer's entry? Otherwise they count as having moved Combat Speed just like any other Vehicle.


As I recall, most are specified as zooming, i.e. count as having moved at crusing speed, but there are some exceptions for big and lumbering fliers.

   
Made in ie
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller




What flyers are you wondering about? AFAIK any flyer with DS is specified how it does it.
eg. A stormraven from a Ravenhawk assault group comes in from DS hovering.
   
Made in us
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Independence MO

 Mr_Rose wrote:
 svep84 wrote:
Well there's some oddness around it - namely there are no Codex (ie: GW published) flyers that can do it - and the BRB doesn't specify Flyers... which you can appreciate are unique in their characteristics and abilities.

FW through the IA books seem to be the only source of deep striking flyers - so I'm wondering if someone knows if they have ever specified how it's supposed to work: ie can I disembark? Declare hover vs zoom? Do I need to move or does it count as "at combat speed." These sorts of things : )

That being said, if you assume it's treated like a vehicle, then that works for me just fine.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also found this nugget in the Xiphon Interceptor experimental rules on Forge World. I'm wondering if it's appeared in an "official" IA book any where? Because this sucks bad for Elysians for example:

Flyers and the Deep Strike Special Rule

As well as arriving via the usual Reserves method, some Flyers also have the ability to
deploy via Deep Strike, representing a vertical ‘dive’ onto the battlefield. If the Flyer in
question has the Hover type, the controlling player must declare before the Deep Strike
is attempted whether the Flyer is Zooming or being treated as a Fast Skimmer. If using
Hover mode, the rules for Deep Strike apply as standard. If using a Zooming Deep Strike,
Flyers deploying via Deep Strike count as making a Zoom move and having moved at
Cruising speed (18") on the turn they arrive, but are not moved any further in the turn
in which they are deployed. They cannot evade, go Flat Out, drop bombs or deploy
transported units on the turn in which they arrive. On subsequent turns, the Flyer is free
to operate as normal. This is a risky proposition for an aircraft and a test of a pilot’s skill,
and so the usual rules for Deep Strike mishaps apply even though the Flyer is notionally at
a higher altitude than is normally the case.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Xiphon_Interceptor.pdf

That rule you quoted is taken from the Age of Darkness (Heresy era) rules. I've not seen it in an IA book anywhere.


That's also in the 40k version of the Xyphons rules, and I believe the same rules are listed in IA2 2e. So yes that is the valid ruleset for Deepstrikeing flyers.


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 drunken0elf wrote:

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Made in ca
Grovelin' Grot Rigger





Canada

I was going to say that this was much ado about nothing - but thanks CM Angelos for providing a potential reference - I'll have a look at that rule set.

Yes indeed, that is from the experimental rules for Xiphon in 40k.

I come at this from the POV of an Elysian player - Vultures and Combat drop Valks. Vultures have deep strike listed in their special rules, and Valks gain deep strike via the Combat Drop USR. Neither of these rules are elaborated on like the experimental rules for the Xiphon...

Needless to say, if the Xiphon rules applied to flyers in general, then Elysians would get a pretty significant nerf.

I also think that it plays just fine assuming flyers are vehicles and using the deep strike rules from the BRB - but it wasn't sitting right with me and wondered if there was something else out there.

Thanks everyone thus far!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alas - they are not listed in IA2: Second Edition! However practically all the IA flyers had deep strike.... So I guess it wasn't a concern in 6th edition at least.

Anyone have The Doom of Mymera Second Edition? I wonder if there might be something in there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/16 23:18:23


 
   
Made in ca
Swift Swooping Hawk





 svep84 wrote:


Anyone have The Doom of Mymera Second Edition? I wonder if there might be something in there.


If you pick a Nightwing or Phoenix Bomber within a Sky Burner coterie, you gain deep strike. No special rules are mentionned outside of the Sky Burner bonus or Kinetic shroud.

Kinetic shroud mentions a 5++ if the model moved and a 4++ if it moved flat-out. It is specified that on the turn of a deep strike, the model gains a 4++.

That's all I have regarding deep striking flyers in Doom of Mymeara 2nd ed.
   
Made in ca
Grovelin' Grot Rigger





Canada

Welp - there you have it. I'm gonna just play it out of the BRB until the Kastorel Novem Vol. 2 tells me different ... which may be a while : (

Thanks everyone!
   
 
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