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Hey folks,

I was wondering what ideas people had given the new formations and rules.

My opinion is that overall, we really haven't moved on the power scale. Are Wulfen better than TWC- maybe in some situations, maybe not in others- but we already had that niche covered. Free Pods for Russ- yeah, maybe its good, but pods dont really shoot, and a 6+ FNP really doesnt make us more resilient and Blood Claws are a point drain and certainly don't help shootwise either. The IronWolves seem decent as well, but nothing compared to the SM double demi (who have Grav tech and get free transports), Eldar, Crons, Tau etc.

Yes, I think we now have more tools against KDK, especially with the counter charge change.

So overall my feelings are that the Blackmane and IronWolves formations are decent for basement games or mid tier armies, but they don't have enough resiliency or firepower to combat the top 4 armies.
Fear, Furious Charge and Counter Charge are all based around close combat- but if we can't get into cc, they are useless- and even if we do, would the outcome be much different than it was without those abilities- it seems like Thunderwolves did just fine without them. SW have always done fairly well against CC armies, and in this case GW upped the ante a bit, but really did nothing to combat the issues we have against the other new armies. Counter Charge- what shooty army is going to assault us? I mean really. Yes, if we are playing against Orks or Khorne, yes, against just about all others armies, its a waste. Heck +1 to BC's WS and BS would have yielded better results. To make matters worse, they decided to slap a BC tax on all the formations, which would be okay if they werent just a poor mans objective camper.

The books has been out for a few days, and certainly people have had access to the formations now for a week, yet not a single army list has appeared on Dakka and no one has posted a tactica thread. When Tau dropped you had army list after army list posted and it is my opinion, the tougher or more broken a codex or its formations are, the more lists you will see around trying to take advantage of said bonuses.

So why nothing for the wolves?

So my feelings are really mixed. Ulrik is a beautiful model in my opinion as is the Iron Priest. The Wulfen box Ill probably use as bits, but I don't feel any sort of compulsion to go out and buy the new books at all, and this is coming from a guy who has played SW for 20 years and has a huge collection of models.

I am interested in what other Space Wolf players have to say about them.

Get a bunch of wolves on wolves with a wolf lord on a wolf + wolves with a curse of a wolf, add fillers and allies to make your wolves wolfier and run across the board. That's it.

I have to agree in that I don't have an overwhelming desire to go buy the new Wulfen models outside of maybe picking bits from ebay, but then again I held on to my 20 some odd Wulfen from Eye Of Terror so it's not like I'm without models.

My feelings may not be wholly what you're looking for because I'm not overly competitive, but I'll put out my initial feelings. I don't think any of the named Great Companies allow for the same amount of competitiveness you could get out of free-forming a SW army CAD style. For better or worse my personal SW army is in Firehowler heraldry just because I liked it the most, and I definitely wish their Great Company rules were better, but I'll more than likely still try the list out for fun.

The benefit of having a Great Company, named or not for that Counter-Charge though. Put that in the right hands and Im sure that could be amazing.

I wish Firehowlers were better too. I've had Sven Bloodhowl built for a while now but their rules just aren't great. Sad.

As to competitive builds...the new formations didn't give us much to work with. I think the winners are the Ironwolves and the Blackmanes because of free points. The Ironwolves can spam Land Speeders with HB/AC in squadrons of three for 150 points. That is 9 HB and 12 AC shots per squadron on a platform that can move 12" and flat out 30" (18" for being a fast skimmer, 6" for grav upwash and 6" for Ironwolves). Multiply that squadron by 4 and you're putting out some serious firepower. You can cover your AT needs with razorbacks since their weapons are free you can spam las/plas or twin las coupled with free HK missiles. You can also make super RBs by giving them all dozer blades, extra armor and storm bolters. I think my 1850 list came out to 2300ish points.

For competitive builds wolves really did not get anything, if anything we got weaker with Iron Priests now being HQs.

The only redeemable formation may be the murderpack, but that is still iffy, since they would need to be near the TWC to be any use and they are not that fast.

I concur, SW didn't really get much in the way of competitive lists, They got more options, but outside of things like murderpacks there are very few that are actually competitive upgrades.

Even murderpack is situational at best due to the heavy focus on shooting and the lack of time needed to play armies that require full games to be played with all the assault phases packed full of rolling dice.

oz of the north wrote:
For competitive builds wolves really did not get anything, if anything we got weaker with Iron Priests now being HQs.

The only redeemable formation may be the murderpack, but that is still iffy, since they would need to be near the TWC to be any use and they are not that fast.

From reading the WD, Iron Priests can still be used as an elite, you just use the older profile

It says that in the WD, but I did not see that in the wulfen book itself. So unless they FAQ it I am not sure if that will stand.

It actually says the opposite in the wulfen book lol. Specifically says it replaces it.

I dunno, I feel like the extra stats for minimal points on the new Iron priest makes it worth it for the HQ slot, especially if you were looking to take wulfen anyway.

Yeah the WD thing makes it debatable, I would advise to err on the side of making them HQ just to not rustle anyone's jimmies.

But I think the intent is to allow both, and really, why not be able to have HQ and Elite techmarines, they have different stats and all, one is a leader tech, one is a regular tech.

I am looking forward to the extra wound myself.

But in terms of competition value, I hate to say it, but counts as battle companies are still the SW best pick :(

I guess I was hoping for "more" somehow- I really wanted something akin to the original 13th company list. Long Fangs with special weapons (not heavy) that could teleport around with Rune Priests, big packs of wolves, bikes (I started a bike squad of 10 bikes back when that original list was published and was actually hoping to get them back on the table). I didn't want a Storm Surge or Wraithknight instant win button, and I was willing to lose to the big 3 more often than not, but I just feel like no real thought went into the game development side on this. I think a great formation bonus would have been to allow outflanking units to assault the turn they came in and have it restricted to certain units in certain formations. I am tired of Tau and Eldar being able to obliterate half your army before you cross the board and with Tau you can't even deep strike in without worry of losing your models.

The IronWolves is pretty lame, I mean free weapon upgrades on vehicles? That's what SW are known for? Speeders? Unless they are planning on changing the assault rules soon, I just can't fathom how the game designers could finish all those Tau formations/units that are ungodly (and before that Eldar), with fear and furious charge and think "yeah, that should put them on par with the rest of the armies"

there is that one big pack of wolves formation, which is a nice boost, it lets you combine 2-5 wolf units, give all the wolves in the unit +1 atk, monster hunter / outflank, and lets you choose which table side to come on from if one wolf is within 12" of that edge.

not bad if you were taking a bunch already I guess?

If you could attack from outflank, yeah, that would be great, but remember, the wolves are still t4 with an armor save of 6+, I mean even bolters will lay waste to them, and with a footprint that big they will always strike last in CC as they will go through terrain.

If you're talking competitive play and don't care about fluff you can make an interesting list using the Wolfkin formation with DA allies.

40 Fenrisian Wolves
Azrael (gives them rapid maneuver and a 4++) (DA CAD)
Void Shield Generator (DA CAD)
WGBL with wulfen stone

Massive board control and that unit is putting out 160 S5 attacks on the charge or 120 if you're multi-charging. The VSG makes you invulnerable to S5 or below small arms fire until it's dealt with and then you have a 4++ to fall back on.

Is it game breaking? Probably not...but it is an interesting build nonetheless.

Dang- my message went into the warp-

Crouching Lictor- yeah that isn't me. I don't use allies and prefer to play straight codex vs codex. I am also not a fan of buying terrain for armies. We use plenty of it on the board, but nothing like the void shields and all those things.

On a side note, I put a list I am working on up in the 40k armies, I would appreciate everyones thoughts- and I had some questions in there too.

Thanks-

Nothing wrong with that at all. When I play casual games I usually stick to a single codex. Tournaments...all bets are off when you're facing some of the grossness out there. Thanks to the LVO results I'm going to be fighting against warp spider spam for the foreseeable future. Great...

As much as I hate to say it I am thinking wulfen + Da for solid first turn charges. Attach sammael or Azrael, get bonus run as well as run and charge

No offense Leth, but that's just the kind of stuff that makes my stomach turn and has me headed away from 40k after almost 25 years. People build tournament lists like Magic Decks. Gimmick A trumps Gimmick B, but C can beat either if X,Y and Z happens. There is no fluff anymore as represented by the game itself- its been mangled and destroyed this past edition. GW has opened the flood gates to a no holds barred system that can make them the most profit possible and we as gamers have gobbled up it until now alot of folks are realizing we went too far and 40k isnt 40k anymore.

Its like the new Wulfen formations- and this is one of the questions I posed in my army list. So, the restrictions for the formation is you have to include enough dedicated transports to embark all non-vehicle model. Okay great. Now let's look at the units possible-

Blood Claws
Terminators

Scouts- wait a minute, they can't take a dedicated transport
Lone Wolves- wait a minute, they can't take a dedicated transport.

So, has GW really gotten that bad that they say, here are the units you can take to represent the IronWolves Great Company, yet you really can't take them because of the restriction they put on the Great Company? Now, I will admit that I dont much fool around with all these formations and allies and all that- so maybe, just maybe, it is possible to take a SW CAD and include 2 drop pods as FA, then give those to the scouts and lone wolves so they have a ride and all is good- but somehow I think GW just messed up. And if GW could mess up on something that easy, I mean that's a no brainer, what does it tell you about their writers? Personally, I think alot of these guys have no idea what 40k started as, and quite possibly they have never even played.

Sorry for the rant- I just can't seem to fathom how Tau could have had codex, supplement, supplement, and now another supplement next month with game breaking formations and GW can't even get a major rule right in the SW supplement.

Although it doesn't seem like it, I am trying to find the good here, it just doesn't seem to stand out.

sturguard wrote:
No offense Leth, but that's just the kind of stuff that makes my stomach turn and has me headed away from 40k after almost 25 years. People build tournament lists like Magic Decks. Gimmick A trumps Gimmick B, but C can beat either if X,Y and Z happens. There is no fluff anymore as represented by the game itself- its been mangled and destroyed this past edition. GW has opened the flood gates to a no holds barred system that can make them the most profit possible and we as gamers have gobbled up it until now alot of folks are realizing we went too far and 40k isnt 40k anymore.

Its like the new Wulfen formations- and this is one of the questions I posed in my army list. So, the restrictions for the formation is you have to include enough dedicated transports to embark all non-vehicle model. Okay great. Now let's look at the units possible-

Blood Claws
Terminators

Scouts- wait a minute, they can't take a dedicated transport
Lone Wolves- wait a minute, they can't take a dedicated transport.

So, has GW really gotten that bad that they say, here are the units you can take to represent the IronWolves Great Company, yet you really can't take them because of the restriction they put on the Great Company? Now, I will admit that I dont much fool around with all these formations and allies and all that- so maybe, just maybe, it is possible to take a SW CAD and include 2 drop pods as FA, then give those to the scouts and lone wolves so they have a ride and all is good- but somehow I think GW just messed up. And if GW could mess up on something that easy, I mean that's a no brainer, what does it tell you about their writers? Personally, I think alot of these guys have no idea what 40k started as, and quite possibly they have never even played.

Sorry for the rant- I just can't seem to fathom how Tau could have had codex, supplement, supplement, and now another supplement next month with game breaking formations and GW can't even get a major rule right in the SW supplement.

Although it doesn't seem like it, I am trying to find the good here, it just doesn't seem to stand out.

Yep, and I would only do it for tournaments at the larger level. Never local or at small events.

 Leth wrote:
As much as I hate to say it I am thinking wulfen + Da for solid first turn charges. Attach sammael or Azrael, get bonus run as well as run and charge

Though does the ability to run and charge pass to Sammael or Azrael. Usually models move at speed of slowest model, so they may get far run, but cannot charge. Since a independant character can only leave a unit during the movement phase, so the wulfen would be stuck going at sam/az's speed which is no run and charge.

So are the wolves that bad competitively that if you remove TWC and allies- they have nothing with the new stuff?

sturguard wrote:
So are the wolves that bad competitively that if you remove TWC and allies- they have nothing with the new stuff?

If you remove allies and TWC, wolves having nothing even close to competitive.

You could probably argue that about a lot of armies though. That's like saying take away an Imperial Knight and allies and Mechanicus armies aren't competitive; or saying take away Tzeentch daemons and Daemons aren't competitive.

It's not a knock on your observation Oz, I'd just say it doesn't really make us any better or worse than other competitive armies that could fold if they didn't have certain choices.

But to the point, yeah, TWC are still a near necessity.

Gremore- to an extent but, if you removoe the Wraithknight from Eldar are they still competitive? How about Grav Cents from Marines (they dont need them for the double demi company) or the Storm Surge (I would think Tau can make due nicely with plain old Riptides or crisis suits).

Again, I wasnt referring to beating the Top 3-4 armies. Even with TWC I dont see SW on par with Eldar, Tau, SM, DA or Necrons (Decurion). I think in NOVA they placed way way down the list. My point was, if we are playing in a competitive tournament without those, and we don't want to use TWC, is there anything else we have going for us?

The Blackmanes have amazing alphastrike ability. I'm tweaking a list with the Blackmanes, Wyrdstorm Brotherhood and Skyhammer Annihilation Force. I know you don't like allies but there are very few pure armies out there anymore.

oz of the north wrote:

 Leth wrote:
As much as I hate to say it I am thinking wulfen + Da for solid first turn charges. Attach sammael or Azrael, get bonus run as well as run and charge

Though does the ability to run and charge pass to Sammael or Azrael. Usually models move at speed of slowest model, so they may get far run, but cannot charge. Since a independant character can only leave a unit during the movement phase, so the wulfen would be stuck going at sam/az's speed which is no run and charge.

Actually so the thing is that now you have independent movements its not at the speed of the slowest model. A bike in a unit can still move 12.

Second the run and charge is simply a rule not a "Special Rule" as they have their special rules listed in a specific section in their profile. As such it is not subjected to the "special rule" restriction in the IC section. While this may seem like a stretch it is infact not as we have been using the same logic for things like nartheciums. The wording is the same.

I'm not sold by any of the formations, but I think running the Wulfen out of an escape hatch will be a very effective tactic. The hatch will extend their threat range in the first turn and help them survive the first turn if you're going 2nd.

crouching lictor wrote:
The Blackmanes have amazing alphastrike ability. I'm tweaking a list with the Blackmanes, Wyrdstorm Brotherhood and Skyhammer Annihilation Force. I know you don't like allies but there are very few pure armies out there anymore.

I'm with this guy.

The Blackmanes have promise but I have two issues with the formation.

1. Blood Claws are a tax of 180 pts (3 min squads) so you could essentially buy almost 6 pods without them. Basically they are just objective grabbers, you really can't do much more with them, especially in a competitive arena and any competitive list will have the firepower or cc ability to wipe them off an objective when they want to.

2. Scouts- SW scouts suck. They are overpriced and can't even have a transport so you are spending close to another 100 pt tax, so now you are up to almost 9 free pods.

3, Ragnar sucks. Now, if Ragnar was a heavy hitter and could handle dedicated CC brutes on his own, okay, take the BC's and now they get their rerolls and BCs arent bad. But Ragnar is a middle of the road guy and isnt worth his points.

What you really want to do is take 10 man Grey Hunter squads with 2 plasmaguns or meltaguns- but you cant' because the points just wont allow you to do that in 1500-1850. If Long Fangs were relentless in this formation when they dropped in a pod, it would go a long way towards helping out (since the BCs cant shoot and only have 1 special weapon)- but they cant- so if you pod them, everyone gets a chance to kill them before they do any shooting, if you set them on the board and your opponent goes first, you either hide them (in which case they dont shoot, or they get killed, in which case they dont shoot).

I think they just came close, but didn't think it through, honestly I know GW doesn't really go through the process of "hey, nothing in here can stand up to a good Tau or Eldar list, do we care?"

Except you can have 4 blood claw + a pack leader with a flamer combi flamer for peanuts. So really that is your load out for them since it doesn't matter they get 1 weapon per 10 because you min maxing and the template weapons mitigate their BS. Next turn charge a tank with MB on that leader.

As for long fangs, your forgeting they have a min of 2 guys! Upgrade the regular to a pack leader and again you can have a drop pod with two guys sporting a combi + special and MB's.

Those two options are arguably better then taking 10 man hunter squads since they achieve two things better.

1. MSU

2. They are way less expensive.

Wolf scouts are the same thing as well, special + combi on a pack leader.

also note that ragnar isn't mandatory like all great company's he can be swapped out for a battle leader. Just through him on a TW mount and ally in a CAD or wolves unleashed for TWC and add him to that unit.

It would be tough for anyone to handle an MSU alpha like that AND a mini wolf star.