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If you have that mentality you will never be able to win. I cannot imagine going into a game thinking I am going to lose because I am facing xyz army, that doesnt make sense to me. I may have a bad match up but it doesnt mean an auto lost. The truth is average players have mental restraints that prevent them from winning and the size of a gun is often the source.

I go in knowing I can win , because I build powerful lists, and play necrons, which are a powerful codex.
It's tougher than other matchups because Tau are stronfer than other codexs.

And that necrons dont have any reliable answer to riptides.

Players don't have "mental restraints" they have physical restraints, the game isn't balanced. period. there is a reason Chaos are considered weak,Because they are, because everything costs too much, and doesnt do enough.
Tau are considered Strong, because they are, everything costs too little and does too much (exaggeration)

In a straight contest 9/10 times tau would beat chaos with equal generals.

Your whole ork Tactics were basically saying "use your stuff to kill his stuff"

All those ork units have much less durability, and killing power than those Tau units, It would be a massacre, despite you writing of the tetra as dead, the broadsides as dead, and everything as dead in assault. You ever tried killing a riptide in assault with S4 AP-? not easy.

My harlequins would love it if someone grav spammed against them
They are also the only assault army that I enjoy playing against tau, as Veil of Tears is hilarious when that stormsurge and riptide can't touch you because you are 25 inches away

harkequin wrote:

The mvp by the way is Lootas take them and take some more and when you had some more take a little bit more, that's how good lootas are!

I don't even play orks and that's hilarious.
Even ignoring riptides and stormsurges, lets pit lootas against broadsides.

15 lootas, 10 hits 9 wounds , 1.5 wounds on broadsides.
So congrats, with 420 pts of lootas you can kill between 65 and 130 points.

Your lack of ork knowledge is apparent! Lootas shoot d3 str 7 shots meaning one unit can shoot 45 shots meaning 15 hits meaning 13 wounds roll 13 dice and see how many 1's you get. Now repeat that process 2 more times and see if 6 ones are rolled.

harkequin wrote:
The stormsurge fires.All your Warbikes die, even jinking. Trust me.

If you charge him turn 2 he can only shoot once as his stabilizers havent deployed yet! So he would not be able to do all that damage because he only gets 1 large blast, a twin-linked smart missile, and 4d6 str 5 shots on average 14 str 5 shots. Its not doing that much damage.

harkequin wrote:
each breacher squad devilfish combo brings down 5 kommandos.

Who said it was just five with them being so cheap they are in cover with stealth, the breacher squad is bs is 3 half the shots will miss 15 hits, 2 will fail to wound, and 2/3 will be saved around 4-5 will die from the fancy breacher squad. Next turn you charge them and the vehicle.

harkequin wrote:
As for killing the tetra, good luck getting your commandos withing 12" to fire your pistols, even if he deploys stupidly forward AND lets you infiltrate 12" away, he just scouts back 12". 2 BS2 rokkits won't kill it.

6 movement + 12 inch weapon = 18 inches same length that you can infiltrate from one enemy unit.

harkequin wrote:
Also 2 rokkits is 30 points, not 10.

Go check the upgrade for Kommandos and see if the upgrade is a different price, dude you are not looking to good atm.

harkequin wrote:
The commandos can in fact pretty much be written off, they won't kill anything shooting, and have to endure 1 or 2 turns of shooting + overwatch.

If they are overwatching on them instead of your bike unit or jump pack unit I believe you are winning.

harkequin wrote:
most your stormboys die to the Riptide hailfire even in cover,
You are left after the first tau turn with *some* stormboys , who still have to eat overwatch. very few commandos, who at most will be a mild inconvenience to the breacher teams (woo defensive grenades)

Riptides are bs 3 half of their shoots miss so a burst cannon has 6 str 6 hits vs 30 orks.

harkequin wrote:
And some lootas who might kill a broadside.
Sure you have boys, but not for long.

Once you charge them its over like literally a good multi-charge and its game over!

harkequin wrote:
The stormsurge can just stomp up the field

He cant move and shoot twice so its either or and shoot the lootas at him and he will die get some dice out and try it out yourself if you dont believe me.

harkequin wrote:
Face it, you just counter picked a tau list , and gave a tonne of buffs to orks, they are nowhere near as strong as you think (400 pts killing 90 pts)

You dont counter pick any list you change your tactics depending on what you are facing.

harkequin wrote:
That list would be annhilated , your "superior tactics" are the same tactics everyone uses.
Sometimes its not a fair fight. Hence the phantom analogy.

In your hands it would lose in my hands it wouldnt but, thats ok!

harkequin wrote:
You have an advantage, don;t be a dick and put down the loser when they complain about the strength of your codex.

I play marines!

harkequin wrote:
As for the Tyson argument. I am not strong or in shape, no matter how skilled a boxer I was, I am not beating him, I don;t have the muscle or speed, no matter how "good " i am at it.It's not mental restraints stopping me from winning there

If you think your going to lose regardless thats you but if you want people to believe they are going to lose thats a problem.

 CKO wrote:

harkequin wrote:

The mvp by the way is Lootas take them and take some more and when you had some more take a little bit more, that's how good lootas are!

I don't even play orks and that's hilarious.
Even ignoring riptides and stormsurges, lets pit lootas against broadsides.

15 lootas, 10 hits 9 wounds , 1.5 wounds on broadsides.
So congrats, with 420 pts of lootas you can kill between 65 and 130 points.

Your lack of ork knowledge is apparent! Lootas shoot d3 str 7 shots meaning one unit can shoot 45 shots meaning 15 hits meaning 13 wounds roll 13 dice and see how many 1's you get. Now repeat that process 2 more times and see if 6 ones are rolled.

He did the Maths based on the average number of shots you'll roll, which is 2.
3 is the max, yes. But even then, that's 2.167 unsaved wounds. Whoop-de-do.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 CKO wrote:

harkequin wrote:

The mvp by the way is Lootas take them and take some more and when you had some more take a little bit more, that's how good lootas are!

I don't even play orks and that's hilarious.
Even ignoring riptides and stormsurges, lets pit lootas against broadsides.

15 lootas, 10 hits 9 wounds , 1.5 wounds on broadsides.
So congrats, with 420 pts of lootas you can kill between 65 and 130 points.

Your lack of ork knowledge is apparent! Lootas shoot d3 str 7 shots meaning one unit can shoot 45 shots meaning 15 hits meaning 13 wounds roll 13 dice and see how many 1's you get. Now repeat that process 2 more times and see if 6 ones are rolled.

He did the Maths based on the average number of shots you'll roll, which is 2.
3 is the max, yes. But even then, that's 2.167 unsaved wounds. Whoop-de-do.

The unit has 6 wounds thats one dead broadside thats 8 less shots thats alot considering that a ridtide on average has 6 hits with its maingun!

Why do I even try?

The fact that you do not understand this lets me know you have improper target priority skills.

That's if you roll a 3 though. A 1 or 2 are just as likely and in those cases you won't kill a Broadside.

With average rolls it's 2 shots per turn.

Not to mention that usually there's a Drone or two out front to take the first few wounds for the unit, meaning on average their won't be enough wounds to kill a Broadside out-right even if their were in the first place.


And my target priorities are fine, thank you very much. I'm just saying that mathematically the Lootas will only kill less than 1 Broadside per turn while the Broadsides on their own will slaughter them (not that they need to as if the Lootas can reach them then some Drones or Firwarriors should be in range of the Lootas to retaliate).

You know what, you guys are right there is no way orks can beat Tau, no way its just not going to happen! LOL

ITC have made nothing but correct calls regarding Tau.

I'm sorry you feel you need even more crutches to compete with other codexes.

Can it happen? Yes.

Is it probable? No.

 CKO wrote:
You know what, you guys are right there is no way orks can beat Tau, no way its just not going to happen! LOL

A strong Tau list will be able to beat almost any Ork list with average dice rolls yeah

 CKO wrote:
You know what, you guys are right there is no way orks can beat Tau, no way its just not going to happen! LOL

I rarely get angry about this hobby, but go look at the results of the LVO. Where did orks place verse any of the 7.5 armies. For feth sake wake up

Cindis wrote:
ITC have made nothing but correct calls regarding Tau.

I'm sorry you feel you need even more crutches to compete with other codexes.

Reported again for being a troll

 CKO wrote:

That's how a foot slooging ork army can beat a gunline!

Wana play it out in vassal?

I have put to much energy into this I see that my efforts are futile, one can not teach when ears are closed and stubborness is present.

Continue to struggle and fear shooty armies, I could care less at this point.

 CKO wrote:
I have put to much energy into this I see that my efforts are futile, one can not teach when ears are closed and stubborness is present.

Continue to struggle and fear shooty armies, I could care less at this point.

Unless you prove your point in action, it's just words.

From my own experience against gunline tau as a footslogging ork player - you don't reach them. It's practically useless to even try to get into combat on thir own terms. The best chance is outlast them at the midboard scoring VP and killing markerlights with whatever shooty stuff you have - mostly lootas, lobbas and bigshootas. This way you can force them to come closer if they're not lucky with missions. And now you can reach them.
That's why i specifically mentioned 6-th edition with oldschool missions where only last turn matters. Now with maelstorm you can get lucky and win just with scoring as much stuff as possible with your slow melee troops. In 6-th you had to be VERY lucky or get a relic mission.

 CKO wrote:
I have put to much energy into this I see that my efforts are futile, one can not teach when ears are closed and stubborness is present.

Continue to struggle and fear shooty armies, I could care less at this point.

Please answer my question, look at the LVO results and tell me that every army is equal assuming that neither player is holding back.

 koooaei wrote:

 CKO wrote:
I have put to much energy into this I see that my efforts are futile, one can not teach when ears are closed and stubborness is present.

Continue to struggle and fear shooty armies, I could care less at this point.

Unless you prove your point in action, it's just words.

From my own experience against gunline tau as a footslogging ork player - you don't reach them. It's practically useless to even try to get into combat on thir own terms. The best chance is outlast them at the midboard scoring VP and killing markerlights with whatever shooty stuff you have - mostly lootas, lobbas and bigshootas. This way you can force them to come closer if they're not lucky with missions. And now you can reach them.
That's why i specifically mentioned 6-th edition with oldschool missions where only last turn matters. Now with maelstorm you can get lucky and win just with scoring as much stuff as possible with your slow melee troops. In 6-th you had to be VERY lucky or get a relic mission.

I hope that you find a more effective tactic and you are not a victim of randomness.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 CKO wrote:
I have put to much energy into this I see that my efforts are futile, one can not teach when ears are closed and stubborness is present.

Continue to struggle and fear shooty armies, I could care less at this point.

Please answer my question, look at the LVO results and tell me that every army is equal assuming that neither player is holding back.

If the best players would have brought orks than the results would have been different. Its not the army thats winning these tournaments its the players.

So you feel there is not difference in power between codex eldar and codex orks. Just as an extreme example

 CKO wrote:

I hope that you find a more effective tactic and you are not a victim of randomness.

It was the most effective with the mostly footslogging army that i possessed. Orks were doing pretty good against tau running a battlewagon rush list. But i didn't have battlewagons. And the tactic of outlasting, scoring and shooting what you can was the most viable. It was quite boring and i didn't like playing against tau for that reason. They forced a boring game where mostly randomness decides who wins. If you go aggressive, you almost certainly loose.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
So you feel there is not difference in power between codex eldar and codex orks. Just as an extreme example

I view each codex like a weapon, all of them have the ability to kill some are easier than others but if you master your weapon you will do fine against any army.

 koooaei wrote:

 CKO wrote:

I hope that you find a more effective tactic and you are not a victim of randomness.

It was the most effective with the mostly footslogging army that i possessed. Orks were doing pretty good against tau running a battlewagon rush list. But i didn't have battlewagons. And the tactic of outlasting, scoring and shooting what you can was the most viable. It was quite boring and i didn't like playing against tau for that reason. They forced a boring game where mostly randomness decides who wins. If you go aggressive, you almost certainly loose.

Sometimes you must resort to tactics you dont like but winning at the end is fun compared to losing during individual turns. Even the best players sometimes have to adapt and change their plan in the blink of an eye you never know when the anomaly will happen and you roll 4 ones or things of that nature.

 koooaei wrote:
It was the most effective with the mostly footslogging army that i possessed. Orks were doing pretty good against tau running a battlewagon rush list. But i didn't have battlewagons. And the tactic of outlasting, scoring and shooting what you can was the most viable. It was quite boring and i didn't like playing against tau for that reason. They forced a boring game where mostly randomness decides who wins. If you go aggressive, you almost certainly loose.

My impression is if you don't have some kind of method to tone down Tau firepower, like Outflanking your entire army, transport flyers, enormous depth (10+ Rhinos) or tricks like Shrouding and Invis, it's almost impossible to keep enough alive to assault successfully.

FNP is pretty common but Riptides are good at shutting that one down in particular.

I tried my best to point out the small things that make a huge difference but they refused to accept it.

Bikes spreading out make blast templates almost useless when you have a 3+ cover save. Orks jumpacks move 19 inches a turn on average and with waagh they get their 2d6 run before the charge in which they get to re-roll one of the dice if it is low! They have kommandos that can infiltrate they have the koptas with scout which can charge first to deny the overwatch barrage, I honestly tried to explain these things but just absolute denial.

Let me phrase my question a different way then. Do you except that certain codexes have a much more narrow range of builds at a very competitive level.

cover saves against Tau shooting? really?
Spreading out won't change that a broadside team with a couple markerlights will kill a squad of bikes in one turn from across the board

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
cover saves against Tau shooting? really?
Spreading out won't change that a broadside team with a couple markerlights will kill a squad of bikes in one turn from across the board

Except Broadside weapons are AP4, meaning it will do very little

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Let me phrase my question a different way then. Do you except that certain codexes have a much more narrow range of builds at a very competitive level.

Absolutely but most codex are like that. Eldar will take bikes, wraithknights, and aspect host I mean technically even best codexes take the same stuff at that level!

notredameguy10 wrote:

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
cover saves against Tau shooting? really?
Spreading out won't change that a broadside team with a couple markerlights will kill a squad of bikes in one turn from across the board

Except Broadside weapons are AP4, meaning it will do very little

That was in response to CKO's comment about Ork Bikes, which have a 4+ AS. They will do a lot.

 CKO wrote:
I tried my best to point out the small things that make a huge difference but they refused to accept it.

Bikes spreading out make blast templates almost useless when you have a 3+ cover save. Orks jumpacks move 19 inches a turn on average and with waagh they get their 2d6 run before the charge in which they get to re-roll one of the dice if it is low! They have kommandos that can infiltrate they have the koptas with scout which can charge first to deny the overwatch barrage, I honestly tried to explain these things but just absolute denial.

Um... How in the hell do they move 19"? Do you mean 16, because 19 is physically impossible. 18 is max, 15.5 is average because math. So, with an approximate 16" move if you roll the higher end of average, your looking at a 24" charge or so with the re-roll assuming no cover. This is, of course, assuming the exspensive squad with 6+ armor that attack at the same time as the opponent are worth getting into combat. But, purely based on math, it takes two turns to move 40" on average with the charge; in a straight line; assuming 0 terrain blocks you. The question that needs to be asked, then, is how far away is the riptide/yvara/"insert other important thing here" away from you at this point. Please, use math and not annecdotal evidence, saves everyone a headache
/rant over.

notredameguy10 wrote:

Cindis wrote:
ITC have made nothing but correct calls regarding Tau.

I'm sorry you feel you need even more crutches to compete with other codexes.

Reported again for being a troll

Because it did so much the first time.

Some of us don't have as much trouble comprehending plain English as others.

 CKO wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
So you feel there is not difference in power between codex eldar and codex orks. Just as an extreme example

I view each codex like a weapon, all of them have the ability to kill some are easier than others but if you master your weapon you will do fine against any army.

This, folks, is what we call the L2P argument.

Is it REALLY that hard to admit some codices are just lacking?