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 Swampmist wrote:

 CKO wrote:
I tried my best to point out the small things that make a huge difference but they refused to accept it.

Bikes spreading out make blast templates almost useless when you have a 3+ cover save. Orks jumpacks move 19 inches a turn on average and with waagh they get their 2d6 run before the charge in which they get to re-roll one of the dice if it is low! They have kommandos that can infiltrate they have the koptas with scout which can charge first to deny the overwatch barrage, I honestly tried to explain these things but just absolute denial.

Um... How in the hell do they move 19"? Do you mean 16, because 19 is physically impossible. 18 is max, 15.5 is average because math. So, with an approximate 16" move if you roll the higher end of average, your looking at a 24" charge or so with the re-roll assuming no cover. This is, of course, assuming the exspensive squad with 6+ armor that attack at the same time as the opponent are worth getting into combat. But, purely based on math, it takes two turns to move 40" on average with the charge; in a straight line; assuming 0 terrain blocks you. The question that needs to be asked, then, is how far away is the riptide/yvara/"insert other important thing here" away from you at this point. Please, use math and not annecdotal evidence, saves everyone a headache
/rant over.

They have a special rule where they run 2d6.

No they dont. One of my best friends plays orks, and I can tell you right now they do not. If they did they might actually be worth taking.

Well, they do have it but they must pass DT for the whole squad. This can also trigger ld tests and they're not brilliant with ld7 even with mob rule. So, you have a chance to loose a squad in your own shooting phase if you perform this run move.
I personally used to run a squad of stormboyz and i've found them doing best as a 9-13 numbered unit with a pk/bp nob hugging blos in the middle of the map and acting as a counter-charge or offensive mostly against vehicles. They're very unstable. Sometimes, they do good, sometimes they just kill themselves on a special run.

So far, 2 games they did good. 2 games they did nothing. 1 game they lost 3 dudes to DT on a special run, failed ld and ran off the board.

I'd not call their offence good for the points just cause of how squishy and unstable they are. The best role for stormboyz is being a relatively quick backup. They're pretty horrible against tau cause they NEED blos to work and tau have very moblile shooters and stuff that ignores LOS.

I can't believe the bias in threads like this. 'OMG, you expect me to take cover saves against tau shooting? OMG, the tau shooting phase is SOOOOO OP!'

Give me a break. The reason why Tau work is that they work TOGETHER. That riptide does not strip your cover saves. . . that is the markerlight's job. . . and if you die to markerlights, which do NO damage, you need to examine your self.

I don't suppose that anyone has ever gamed interpenetration? Are you folks wondering why out armies are blowing you away? it is because they are willing to work together. try it sometime, try the (shudder) idea of hiding a psyker with invisibility in or behind your deathstar, and drink the tau players tears as you hard counter their list.

hey, aren't CSM one of the armies capable of going the daemon farm way? that means that they have access to psykers. Can't they select telepathy(Invisibility) as well?

 carldooley wrote:
I can't believe the bias in threads like this. 'OMG, you expect me to take cover saves against tau shooting? OMG, the tau shooting phase is SOOOOO OP!'

Give me a break. The reason why Tau work is that they work TOGETHER. That riptide does not strip your cover saves. . . that is the markerlight's job. . . and if you die to markerlights, which do NO damage, you need to examine your self.

I don't suppose that anyone has ever gamed interpenetration? Are you folks wondering why out armies are blowing you away? it is because they are willing to work together. try it sometime, try the (shudder) idea of hiding a psyker with invisibility in or behind your deathstar, and drink the tau players tears as you hard counter their list.

hey, aren't CSM one of the armies capable of going the daemon farm way? that means that they have access to psykers. Can't they select telepathy(Invisibility) as well?

BA don't get telepathy. And the Tau can just murder all the other units.

There are a couple different complaints here.

Mine is that the Riptide beats ASMs in CC for the points. That has almost nothing to do with Marker lights.

I agree that the Riptide is fine for 7.5-level games. I just don't like that sort of gak, which is commonplace at that level.

What would orks need to get a chance to beat Tau? 1) Invuln saves. The only one we have is the expensive KFF, and that's covering models, not units. 2) FNP across the board. You can't stick a painboy in every unit and without one orks die easily. 3) High leadership/Fearless. With the current Mob Rule orks kill themselves just as good as Tau do. 4) higher T, so you actualy get a way of surviving the shooting faze and don't get the FNP denied.

 hordrak wrote:
What would orks need to get a chance to beat Tau? 1) Invuln saves. The only one we have is the expensive KFF, and that's covering models, not units. 2) FNP across the board. You can't stick a painboy in every unit and without one orks die easily. 3) High leadership/Fearless. With the current Mob Rule orks kill themselves just as good as Tau do. 4) higher T, so you actualy get a way of surviving the shooting faze and don't get the FNP denied.

I was under the impression that most ork boyz are T4, Tau don't have a lot of Str8 to double out FNP. What is denying you? and why aren't you using cover? SMS don't need LOS, but everything else does. And why not use your KFF? does it need to be on the field, or can it be in a battlewagon instead?

And koooaei? I do appreciate the offer. I haven't looked at Vassal recently. If I do manage to install it properly, I'd be happy to play a game. You build a 1850 tac ork list, and I'll build a 1850 tac tau list, and we can trade and play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
BA don't get telepathy. And the Tau can just murder all the other units.

but you do have Mephiston still? and Librarian dreads? And I wasn't talking about BA, which are IoM and take BB allies up the wazoo. I was talking about CSM.

**edit** where can I get the modules for vassal?

BA can't select telepathy as a discipline. Libby dreads are also overcosted HQs.

Martel732 wrote:
BA can't select telepathy as a discipline. Libby dreads are also overcosted HQs.

libby dreads are overcosted. kffs are overcosted.

RIPTIDES AND STORMSURGES AREN'T EXACTLY CHEAP EITHER!!!!
sorry for the caps, but what are you spending your points on?

hey, aren't CSM one of the armies capable of going the daemon farm way? that means that they have access to psykers. Can't they select telepathy(Invisibility) as well?

Not in the slightest.
CSM peril on any double when summoning, you're more likely to lose units than gain them.

And how does one "select" invisibility.
The best possible chance CSM have of getting invisibilty is with 2 ML3 sorcerors, with no marks, is 75% .
Tigerius has this chance on his own.
75% is not reliable enough for a list that is based around invis, as you will not have it every fourth game. 85% chance and you're looking more solid, getting invis 5/6 games.

And for that 75% chance, you max out your HQ slots for that CAD. On top of this what will you make invisible? CSM dont have a deathstar worth using it on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I was under the impression that most ork boyz are T4, Tau don't have a lot of Str8 to double out FNP. What is denying you? and why aren't you using cover? SMS don't need LOS, but everything else does. And why not use your KFF? does it need to be on the field, or can it be in a battlewagon instead?

Using cover isn't as easy as you make it out to be. When trying to get into assault you usually have to cross at least some open ground, and if you aren't you get slowed way down by difficult terrain, meaning that 4+ save is negated, by getting shot twice as much.

If it's a city game with a tonne of LoS blocking terrain, then yeah, orks will shine as only the SMS will hit them, but most games don't have nearly enough LoS blocking to save orks.

harkequin wrote:
If it's a city game with a tonne of LoS blocking terrain, then yeah, orks will shine as only the SMS will hit them, but most games don't have nearly enough LoS blocking to save orks.

and I, at least, got tired of this argument. I wanted a bare field, my opponent wanted a full field of cover. I got around this by either allowing my opponent to populate the field with cover as long as I got to choose the side (usually taking the side with the most cover- because if I have it then my opponent doesn't), or I asked a third person to do so.

 carldooley wrote:

harkequin wrote:
If it's a city game with a tonne of LoS blocking terrain, then yeah, orks will shine as only the SMS will hit them, but most games don't have nearly enough LoS blocking to save orks.

and I, at least, got tired of this argument. I wanted a bare field, my opponent wanted a full field of cover. I got around this by either allowing my opponent to populate the field with cover as long as I got to choose the side (usually taking the side with the most cover- because if I have it then my opponent doesn't), or I asked a third person to do so.

Yeah, that's fair. As long as it's not a competitive game there is an easy fix , make a theme. Plan ahead of time, agree what sort of field it will be, An urban setting with orks overrunning a city, going from building to building with no real open ground, then Next time reanact Zulu, no real cover and see how many boyz can make it.

If it's competitve, terrain layout is a whole nother beast, preferably handled by someone else, with a view to making the game more balanced.

 Swampmist wrote:
No they dont. One of my best friends plays orks, and I can tell you right now they do not. If they did they might actually be worth taking.

Stormboyz have always been able to move an extra D6 compared to other jumppack units. In the old dex, they were just way too expensive to utilize and in the new dex theyre not priced badly but it moved from 12 + D6 in the Movement phase (1 boy goes boom on a roll of 1) for the whole unit, to running 2D6 and every single damn boy takes a danger test, which on average kills a third of the unit since a 6+ save will not save you from a failed dangertest for jack.

They got weaker in the current dex because of that. If they left their rules alone and just reworked their costs to be in line with other codex jumppacks vs nonjump units (which is usually 3-5pts, while orks were damn near 3x) they would be amazing. But they didnt, they neutered them just like the rest of the dex.

Your friend has been playing them wrong for years upon years. I dont recall if they had this before the last codex, but the last codex has been around for much longer than ive been playing.

Also lol at the complaint about Riptides beating marines in CC for the points. If your non-specialized marines, i.e. no special AP2 weapons even if they somehow didnt get to wound on a 2+ in the process, beat a riptide in melee every time i'd call BS. A troop shouldnt beat an elite easily, regardless of who's elite it is. Theres a reason its an ELITE choice.
Hide a powerfist in your marines. Odds are the Riptide will kill 1-2 marines tops if that. The moment you win combat you sweep something 4x your size thanks to the stupid sweeping advance rules in this game. If you dont want powerfists, dont expect to face a riptide or any MC with regular marines and win. Not even Nid MCs are that weak.

I don't hate Tau any more than I hate Necrons, Eldar or my fellow marine players. I do dislike people taking WAAC lists against the lower tier codex because it severely limits what they can bring to a game.

40k goes best when there is a level of self awareness and that includes recognizing that there is a hierarchy of armies.

 carldooley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA can't select telepathy as a discipline. Libby dreads are also overcosted HQs.

libby dreads are overcosted. kffs are overcosted.

RIPTIDES AND STORMSURGES AREN'T EXACTLY CHEAP EITHER!!!!
sorry for the caps, but what are you spending your points on?

For what they do, they are quite cheap. That's the whole problem. Riptides in particular are grossly undercosted.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I don't hate Tau any more than I hate Necrons, Eldar or my fellow marine players. I do dislike people taking WAAC lists against the lower tier codex because it severely limits what they can bring to a game.

40k goes best when there is a level of self awareness and that includes recognizing that there is a hierarchy of armies.

This

Friend of mine keeps trying to get me to do tournaments and i keep telling him this game will never been a tournament-viable game because theres no personal-balance to tone down the OP armies so everyone can play and have fun. Its all WAAC cheese. He claims he knows Reece and believes hes doing a good job at balancing the game and i just laughed. Until Reece starts putting out whole codex reworks this game will never be balanced. So i avoid that scene.
I dont use tau formations except the retaliation cadre for extra crisis suits or the Hunter Cadre for when i want to go really heavy firewarriors for run + shoot firewarriors. I dont spam riptides, in fact i rarely use them anymore. I use piranhas/hammerheads. Hell, i even charge sometimes. The game is much more fun when you arent steamrolling every game.

And yes i can do the tournament stuff, i dont avoid it because i cant. Said friend wanted me to go all out and test his necron ITC list. I ripped his face off with a riptide wing + stormsurge + Mark'O unit + piranha/drone wall to choke up his wraiths. I dont have fun playing that way.

Riptide wouldnt be grossly undercosted if its Ion gun was in line with the other ion weapons - 24" AP3 w/o nova. Its superior to the Ionhead in literally every way which make no sense.
Stormsurge definitely isnt undercosted. Its actually about right, which is unusual to say for me lol.

 carldooley wrote:
I can't believe the bias in threads like this. 'OMG, you expect me to take cover saves against tau shooting? OMG, the tau shooting phase is SOOOOO OP!'

Give me a break. The reason why Tau work is that they work TOGETHER. That riptide does not strip your cover saves. . . that is the markerlight's job. . . and if you die to markerlights, which do NO damage, you need to examine your self.

I don't suppose that anyone has ever gamed interpenetration? Are you folks wondering why out armies are blowing you away? it is because they are willing to work together. try it sometime, try the (shudder) idea of hiding a psyker with invisibility in or behind your deathstar, and drink the tau players tears as you hard counter their list.

hey, aren't CSM one of the armies capable of going the daemon farm way? that means that they have access to psykers. Can't they select telepathy(Invisibility) as well?

Someone doesn't understand how markerlights work. If you're having trouble with invisibility as a Tau player well...This thread is full of examples of your average Tau players tenuous grasp of the game in general...

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
cover saves against Tau shooting? really?
Spreading out won't change that a broadside team with a couple markerlights will kill a squad of bikes in one turn from across the board

Except Broadside weapons are AP4, meaning it will do very little

That was in response to CKO's comment about Ork Bikes, which have a 4+ AS. They will do a lot.

My bad! someone had mentioned space marine bikes earlier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 carldooley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA can't select telepathy as a discipline. Libby dreads are also overcosted HQs.

libby dreads are overcosted. kffs are overcosted.

RIPTIDES AND STORMSURGES AREN'T EXACTLY CHEAP EITHER!!!!
sorry for the caps, but what are you spending your points on?

For what they do, they are quite cheap. That's the whole problem. Riptides in particular are grossly undercosted.

SS is 438 points properly kitted out. That is 1/4 of your army. That is not cheap.
Riptide properly kitted out is 225 points, again not cheap. Are riptides good? Yes, are they very durable? Yes. Do they do a lot of actual damage? NO

Cindis wrote:
Someone doesn't understand how markerlights work. If you're having trouble with invisibility as a Tau player well...This thread is full of examples of your average Tau players tenuous grasp of the game in general...

I said that synergy is one of the strengths of Tau. Not in those words, but in the 'work together' bit. A question: how many units do you see with markerlights in an army? or does your tau opponent make use of marker planes?

notredameguy10 wrote:

SS is 438 points properly kitted out. That is 1/4 of your army. That is not cheap.
Riptide properly kitted out is 225 points, again not cheap. Are riptides good? Yes, are they very durable? Yes. Do they do a lot of actual damage? NO

so a S8 AP2 Large blast that can easily get ignores cover and a very high BS from markerlights isn't a lot of damage?

SS is 438 points properly kitted out. That is 1/4 of your army. That is not cheap.
Riptide properly kitted out is 225 points, again not cheap. Are riptides good? Yes, are they very durable? Yes. Do they do a lot of actual damage? NO

The stormsurge is pretty undercosted. Given that it is very unlikely to be removed during the game, and operates at full capacity until it is removed, It only has to kill 1 unit for it to be a net positive.

It takes 470 points of grav skyhammer to deal with it. Using a powerful gun built specifically to kill GMCs, In a powerful formation built specifically to Alpha strike.

And the Stormsurge can intercept and kill At least one of those squads when it drops.

Outside of Grav there are very few things that can kill a stormsurge before they are killed by it.
Honestly , It'd probably be appropriately costed if not for 50pts buying 8 more wounds -.-

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

SS is 438 points properly kitted out. That is 1/4 of your army. That is not cheap.
Riptide properly kitted out is 225 points, again not cheap. Are riptides good? Yes, are they very durable? Yes. Do they do a lot of actual damage? NO

so a S8 AP2 Large blast that can easily get ignores cover and a very high BS from markerlights isn't a lot of damage?

On its own? Nope not really. 225 points for a S8 AP2 LB (that gets hot btw) is not good damage output.

I love how people always add in ignore cover and improved BS due to marker lights and fail to add in the added cost of those marker lights? You want ignore cover and added BS? Fine. Thats 4 marker hits which means 8 pathfinder (88 points). You are now up to 313 points for 1 St 8 AP2 LB that will fail 1/6 times.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

harkequin wrote:

SS is 438 points properly kitted out. That is 1/4 of your army. That is not cheap.
Riptide properly kitted out is 225 points, again not cheap. Are riptides good? Yes, are they very durable? Yes. Do they do a lot of actual damage? NO

The stormsurge is pretty undercosted. Given that it is very unlikely to be removed during the game, and operates at full capacity until it is removed, It only has to kill 1 unit for it to be a net positive.

It takes 470 points of grav skyhammer to deal with it. Using a powerful gun built specifically to kill GMCs, In a powerful formation built specifically to Alpha strike.

And the Stormsurge can intercept and kill At least one of those squads when it drops.

Outside of Grav there are very few things that can kill a stormsurge before they are killed by it.
Honestly , It'd probably be appropriately costed if not for 50pts buying 8 more wounds -.-

It is T6 with a 3+ save. I have seen a multitude of battle reports where it not only was removed BUT WAS REMOVED FROM ONE SINGLE UNIT SHOOTING AT IT

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Friend of mine keeps trying to get me to do tournaments and i keep telling him this game will never been a tournament-viable game because theres no personal-balance to tone down the OP armies so everyone can play and have fun... I dont use tau formations except the retaliation cadre for extra crisis suits or the Hunter Cadre for when i want to go really heavy firewarriors for run + shoot firewarriors. I dont spam riptides, in fact i rarely use them anymore. I use piranhas/hammerheads. Hell, i even charge sometimes. The game is much more fun when you arent steamrolling every game.

...

Riptide wouldnt be grossly undercosted if its Ion gun was in line with the other ion weapons - 24" AP3 w/o nova. Its superior to the Ionhead in literally every way which make no sense.
Stormsurge definitely isnt undercosted. Its actually about right, which is unusual to say for me lol.

Pretty good observations on the pros + cons of ultra-competitive attitudes and a pretty fair fix. Good post!

notredameguy10 wrote:

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

SS is 438 points properly kitted out. That is 1/4 of your army. That is not cheap.
Riptide properly kitted out is 225 points, again not cheap. Are riptides good? Yes, are they very durable? Yes. Do they do a lot of actual damage? NO

so a S8 AP2 Large blast that can easily get ignores cover and a very high BS from markerlights isn't a lot of damage?

On its own? Nope not really. 225 points for a S8 AP2 LB (that gets hot btw) is not good damage output.

I love how people always add in ignore cover and improved BS due to marker lights and fail to add in the added cost of those marker lights? You want ignore cover and added BS? Fine. Thats 4 marker hits which means 8 pathfinder (88 points). You are now up to 313 points for 1 St 8 AP2 LB that will fail 1/6 times.

313 points to reliably evaporate almost any squad in the game from across the board?
That is quite good

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

SS is 438 points properly kitted out. That is 1/4 of your army. That is not cheap.
Riptide properly kitted out is 225 points, again not cheap. Are riptides good? Yes, are they very durable? Yes. Do they do a lot of actual damage? NO

so a S8 AP2 Large blast that can easily get ignores cover and a very high BS from markerlights isn't a lot of damage?

On its own? Nope not really. 225 points for a S8 AP2 LB (that gets hot btw) is not good damage output.

I love how people always add in ignore cover and improved BS due to marker lights and fail to add in the added cost of those marker lights? You want ignore cover and added BS? Fine. Thats 4 marker hits which means 8 pathfinder (88 points). You are now up to 313 points for 1 St 8 AP2 LB that will fail 1/6 times.

313 points to reliably evaporate almost any squad in the game from across the board?
That is quite good

And the point people keep trying to make is you destroy those T3 5+ save marker lights and the riptides becomes BS3 with no ignore cover. Then it is not very good anymore.

I have played with an against Tau and I am telling you riptides do not do that much actual damage. They soak up a ton of damage but if you remove marker lights from the board they become almost no problem whatsoever

It is T6 with a 3+ save. I have seen a multitude of battle reports where it not only was removed BUT WAS REMOVED FROM ONE SINGLE UNIT SHOOTING AT IT

T6 3+ 4++ 5+++ 8 W.
Please tell me what unit removed it on it's own.
Only one I can see doing that is Centstar, with Gate of infinity to get into range, OR WK with D cannons.

There are ways to kill it, or even neuter it, herlequins could do a pretty good job , or a freakshow.
But let's assume a Freakshow, with -9 Ld modifier, down to 0., and they roll 18 on the psychic shreik, and they hit with it.
they do 6 wounds to the Stormsurge, assuming everything goes perfectly. That is insane durability.

So, noone willing to play things out?

harkequin wrote:

It is T6 with a 3+ save. I have seen a multitude of battle reports where it not only was removed BUT WAS REMOVED FROM ONE SINGLE UNIT SHOOTING AT IT

T6 3+ 4++ 5+++ 8 W.
Please tell me what unit removed it on it's own.
Only one I can see doing that is Centstar, with Gate of infinity to get into range, OR WK with D cannons.

There are ways to kill it, or even neuter it, herlequins could do a pretty good job , or a freakshow.
But let's assume a Freakshow, with -9 Ld modifier, down to 0., and they roll 18 on the psychic shreik, and they hit with it.
they do 6 wounds to the Stormsurge, assuming everything goes perfectly. That is insane durability.

Grave cents in one game from frontline
Kastelins in a game from miniwargaming

And it SHOULD be insanely durable for 438 points. You SHOULDN'T be able to kill it in one round of shooting or with the same number of points. I will never understand why people think something is undercoated when they cannot kill it with the same number of points. That makes no sense. You shouldn't be able to always kill a unit with the same number of points in one turn.

notredameguy10 wrote:

harkequin wrote:

It is T6 with a 3+ save. I have seen a multitude of battle reports where it not only was removed BUT WAS REMOVED FROM ONE SINGLE UNIT SHOOTING AT IT

T6 3+ 4++ 5+++ 8 W.
Please tell me what unit removed it on it's own.
Only one I can see doing that is Centstar, with Gate of infinity to get into range, OR WK with D cannons.

There are ways to kill it, or even neuter it, herlequins could do a pretty good job , or a freakshow.
But let's assume a Freakshow, with -9 Ld modifier, down to 0., and they roll 18 on the psychic shreik, and they hit with it.
they do 6 wounds to the Stormsurge, assuming everything goes perfectly. That is insane durability.

Grave cents in one game from frontline
Kastelins in a game from miniwargaming

And it SHOULD be insanely durable for 438 points. You SHOULDN'T be able to kill it in one round of shooting or with the same number of points. I will never understand why people think something is undercoated when they cannot kill it with the same number of points. That makes no sense. You shouldn't be able to always kill a unit with the same number of points in one turn.

Because your 438 pts can easily kill 438 pts from my codex in one turn.