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Frozocrone wrote: I emailed GW last week concerning this release and got a reply this morning. I'm hoping that they do pay attention (although I completely forgot to add Ghaz to my complaints) but they did reply and this is what they had to say.
My email
Spoiler:
To whom it may concern,
I have recently seen the Ork rules as published in the new updated supplement and as a customer, I am very disappointed with the treatment they have been given. I feel as if my previous books that I purchased have become obsolete, since the formations as shown in the book are copied and pasted from existing books, with minor changes (such as Rage instead of Furious Charge on Gorkanauts) It would have been nice to see a large variety of new formations as opposed to three Flyer formations that could just have easily been condensed into one, let alone the fact there already was the Skyboss Wingnutz formation. There are other things that the formations and/or the units themselves need, but that is not why I am disappointed.
In addition to that, there are no new models (Grukk does not count, as he was released in Stormclaw) and no new Codex announced that would address the current problems in the army that I find keep appearing every time I use my Orks. Again, this is not why I am disappointed.
This is why I am disappointed. What should have been done, was a complete rewrite of the Codex and rules. Here are just a few of the things I can think off the top of my head that would have made me support this purchase:
1) There should have been a formation that allowed you to take multiple Painboyz/Wierdboyz/Big Meks with bonuses for each model, as opposed to only one per core. Possibly with a 4++ Feel no Pain, harness psychic powers on 3+, have free Wargear respectively.
2) Ork Boyz should not have been six units in the Warband (or three in the case of the Goff Killmob). Some people want to run more, some people want to run less. Every other super-formation (e.g. Decurion, Warhost, Hunter Contingent) has always allowed flexibility in the amount of what units and how many you can bring for your core. For example, the Necron Decurion allows you to take an Overlord which can be swapped out for a number 0-2 Monoliths, 0-3 Lychguard, 1-4 units of Immortals 1-3 units of Tomb Blades and 2-8 units of Necron Warriors.The only flexibility Orks have across their core formations is exchanging the Nobz for Meganobz and the Warboss for Grukk.
3) General re-writes to the rules that support releases. Gorkanauts/Morkanauts should have been immune to the vehicle damage chart like super heavies are, being the same size as Imperial Knights that they are. Deff Dreads should have been immune to Crew Shaken/Stunned, as well as been able to put in squadrons. Considering your company is pushing sales of Ork Walkers, having rules that are good would tempt me to part with my money.
4) As for changes in the rules of the units themselves, there are far too many to go through, but here are a few.
[a]Three Nobz with Power Klaws are more expensive than three Meganobz, with considerably worse stats.
[b] Vehicles can purchase Stikkbombs, but most units already have Stikkbombs which renders the upgrade close to useless.
[c] Red Paint Jobs forfeit a turn of shooting just to move an extra inch.
[d] Nob Bikers are more expensive than Thunderwolf Cavalry, while having worse stats.
[e] Cybork bodies can be rendered obsolete simply by adding a Painboy or Mad Dok Grotsnik to a unit.
[f] Da Boss iz Watchin' should have been +/- 2 to Mob Rule. Although Mob Rule is in itself, a bad rule due to how it works, the current form of Da Boss iz Watchin basically renders the table moot, where a D6 of 2-5 automatically results in Squabble. Not everyone wants to run thirty boyz in a squad.
Despite this, none of what I have proposed, or even something to that effect, was implemented. So that leaves the question, what encourages me and a lot of other Ork players to spend their money on this release? Simply put, very little, if anything. To me, this release shows a clear lack of knowledge and/or interest in your game, as well as what your customers want.
Suffice to say, I have become disillusioned with your company and will not be supporting this purchase.
Their reply:
Spoiler:
Hello Joseph
Thank you so much for taking the time to put down your thoughts in this email regarding the latest Ork supplement, along with what are obviously very passionate suggestions for the future of the great Waaaaagh!
We do take all feedback very seriously from our customers, so this email has been passed on to the relevant heads of departments to look into. Whilst I cannot guarantee a reply from them, or any changes, I assure you that your email will be looked into.
Thanks again for your email, and should you need anything further, please let me know
Kind Regards
Sadly, cannot guarantee doth butter no parsnips!
They answered to me too
Their reply:
Spoiler:
Thanks very much for you email - I have passed your comments on to the studio- we do take all customer feedback very seriously - however I cannot guarantee a direct reply from them.
Still, I don't think we'll ever see decent (and by decent I don't necessarily mean powerful, I mean fun, fluffy, flexible, etc) rules for Orks, Tyranids, or CSM until someone new gets onto the design team who actually likes those armies. No designer who actually cared about Orks would release the Detachment or the Formations in the updated Supplement, at the very least they'd want to go a little more in-depth with the variety of the formations within it. The fact that the Gorkanaught is still spruiked as a viable assault transport for Nobz speaks to a paucity of understanding of how Orks work, a paucity that would almost certainly not be evident if the designer writing the rules actually knew or cared about how Orks work.
But I don't like to end on a down note - the ability to Waaagh! on every turn is actually alright, and could probably lead to some 1st turn charges. Dakkajets also benefit (though not as much as they used to *grumble grumb-* wait, gotta stay positive) and it wouldn't be too expensive I think to run a Goff Killmob and the 3 dakkajet formation. As for how competitive that ends up being...
Unfortunately whoever works on Orks (along with Guard I feel) isn't passionate about them and seems to be designing them to be an NPC faction for others to fight (and win). A real Ork fan (be it power gamer or fluff fanatic) would have a field day making rules for the Orks. No faction in the 40k universe can get away with doing more crazy and off the wall things than Orks and their formation rules should reflect their unique nature. Not saying everything should be RNG heavy (please stop with the RNG gak) but having things like a formation of "teleporta boyz" who all deep strike in or a Weirdboy conclave where they hurl out lots of powers but tend to explode. A unit of Nobz with Grots and the Nobz can throw the grots in front of attacks to soak up wounds or a group of 3-4 Shokk Attack Guns and they can combine fire to unleash a barrage of pie plates but at the risk of "crossing the beams" and spawning random vortexes. The current designers make Orks function like footslogging fools who blindly march forward to their deaths but unlike the fluff you don't have billions of Orks at your disposal. Mob Rule being this joke of a special rule that takes our terrible leadership (why are Nobz leadership 7?) and then punishes us for failing moral checks by inflicting even more wounds onto the unit. Nothing about Mob Rule is fun for the Ork player and it just feels like its designed for the other player to enjoy seeing the Orks kill themselves because blowing up T4 6+ armor models isn't easy enough. Its really bad game design when you make rules that are intentionally designed to compound on each other to punish the player for something they have no control over. Its such a miss opportunity to take a faction with great fluff and not utilize it to create fun gameplay.
"Hold my shoota, I'm goin in"
Armies (7th edition points)
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ + 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3500 Points "Void Kraken" Space Marines
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise"
Unfortunately whoever works on Orks (along with Guard I feel) isn't passionate about them and seems to be designing them to be an NPC faction for others to fight (and win).
This is how I've felt for a while now. I don't know if there simply aren't any ork players on the design team, but for some reason GW seems to have decided that Orks are the "Bad Guys that the Good Guys are supposed to win against every time" faction. Essentially, a bunch of faceless grunts intended to be stomped flat by every space marine, Eldar, Tau, and Necron player out there. The codex reflects that with the "Rolling on random tables is fun!1!" design element, with even the best results not being particularly awesome for the ork player. ("Randomness is FUN!")
Vineheart01 wrote: Finkin' Kap only gives you one Strategic Trait, its not any trait, and its not rerollable either.
Bare in mind you are restricted to one Gift of Gork and Mork, which means no Lucky Stikk for your warlord. And Finkin' Kap has to be on your warlord.
Like ive said in the past, its such a lame limiter that we can only get 1 relic in the normal dex. All of them are average to gimicky EXCEPT the stikk, which is insanely good. Since Painboyz cant take any and Big Meks typically dont have a use for them, nothing except the Stikk gets used.
I don't believe that's right. It says "Only one of each of the following may be taken per army. A model can take one of the following:", meaning you could give a Big Mek Da Finkin' Kap and your Warboss Da Lucky Stikk.
Vineheart01 wrote: Finkin' Kap only gives you one Strategic Trait, its not any trait, and its not rerollable either.
Bare in mind you are restricted to one Gift of Gork and Mork, which means no Lucky Stikk for your warlord. And Finkin' Kap has to be on your warlord.
Like ive said in the past, its such a lame limiter that we can only get 1 relic in the normal dex. All of them are average to gimicky EXCEPT the stikk, which is insanely good. Since Painboyz cant take any and Big Meks typically dont have a use for them, nothing except the Stikk gets used.
I don't believe that's right. It says "Only one of each of the following may be taken per army. A model can take one of the following:", meaning you could give a Big Mek Da Finkin' Kap and your Warboss Da Lucky Stikk.
Codex: Orks (2014), p53, Orks Wargear List, Gifts of Gork and Mork:
Da Finkin' Kap, footnote 4:
"Can only be taken by your Warlord."
Vineheart01 wrote: Finkin' Kap only gives you one Strategic Trait, its not any trait, and its not rerollable either.
Bare in mind you are restricted to one Gift of Gork and Mork, which means no Lucky Stikk for your warlord. And Finkin' Kap has to be on your warlord.
Like ive said in the past, its such a lame limiter that we can only get 1 relic in the normal dex. All of them are average to gimicky EXCEPT the stikk, which is insanely good. Since Painboyz cant take any and Big Meks typically dont have a use for them, nothing except the Stikk gets used.
I don't believe that's right. It says "Only one of each of the following may be taken per army. A model can take one of the following:", meaning you could give a Big Mek Da Finkin' Kap and your Warboss Da Lucky Stikk.
Codex: Orks (2014), p53, Orks Wargear List, Gifts of Gork and Mork:
Da Finkin' Kap, footnote 4:
"Can only be taken by your Warlord."
Sorry.
What about Da Lukky Stikk? Does it carry the same footnote? Otherwise, make a Big Mek your warlord, give him the KFF and stick him in the back with a squad of Lootas.
I am interested in one thing
What happens to the Green Tide formation with the redesign of the Ghazzy suplement ? Because if its gone it will be the second time GW invalidates my army (played trukk spam in 6th ed.)
There is only so much my nerves and budget can take
Vineheart01 wrote: Finkin' Kap only gives you one Strategic Trait, its not any trait, and its not rerollable either.
Bare in mind you are restricted to one Gift of Gork and Mork, which means no Lucky Stikk for your warlord. And Finkin' Kap has to be on your warlord.
Like ive said in the past, its such a lame limiter that we can only get 1 relic in the normal dex. All of them are average to gimicky EXCEPT the stikk, which is insanely good. Since Painboyz cant take any and Big Meks typically dont have a use for them, nothing except the Stikk gets used.
I don't believe that's right. It says "Only one of each of the following may be taken per army. A model can take one of the following:", meaning you could give a Big Mek Da Finkin' Kap and your Warboss Da Lucky Stikk.
Codex: Orks (2014), p53, Orks Wargear List, Gifts of Gork and Mork:
Da Finkin' Kap, footnote 4:
"Can only be taken by your Warlord."
Sorry.
What about Da Lukky Stikk? Does it carry the same footnote? Otherwise, make a Big Mek your warlord, give him the KFF and stick him in the back with a squad of Lootas.
No, Da Lukky Stikk doesn't have that restriction. Sure, you could put Da Finkin' Kap on a Big Mek. As long as you don't plan on ever using your Waaagh!, that would work. Because remember: you need a character with the Waaagh! special rule as your Warlord to call the Waaagh!, and that's only available to a Warboss or Ghazzy, or if you pick it up on the WL trait table.
Vineheart01 wrote: Finkin' Kap only gives you one Strategic Trait, its not any trait, and its not rerollable either.
Bare in mind you are restricted to one Gift of Gork and Mork, which means no Lucky Stikk for your warlord. And Finkin' Kap has to be on your warlord.
Like ive said in the past, its such a lame limiter that we can only get 1 relic in the normal dex. All of them are average to gimicky EXCEPT the stikk, which is insanely good. Since Painboyz cant take any and Big Meks typically dont have a use for them, nothing except the Stikk gets used.
I don't believe that's right. It says "Only one of each of the following may be taken per army. A model can take one of the following:", meaning you could give a Big Mek Da Finkin' Kap and your Warboss Da Lucky Stikk.
Codex: Orks (2014), p53, Orks Wargear List, Gifts of Gork and Mork:
Da Finkin' Kap, footnote 4:
"Can only be taken by your Warlord."
Sorry.
What about Da Lukky Stikk? Does it carry the same footnote? Otherwise, make a Big Mek your warlord, give him the KFF and stick him in the back with a squad of Lootas.
No, Da Lukky Stikk doesn't have that restriction. Sure, you could put Da Finkin' Kap on a Big Mek. As long as you don't plan on ever using your Waaagh!, that would work. Because remember: you need a character with the Waaagh! special rule as your Warlord to call the Waaagh!, and that's only available to a Warboss or Ghazzy, or if you pick it up on the WL trait table.
Well, that's super inconvenient. I used the exact set up as described and it worked perfect, except I called a Waaagh!! which was obviously illegal
Delevarius wrote: I am interested in one thing
What happens to the Green Tide formation with the redesign of the Ghazzy suplement ? Because if its gone it will be the second time GW invalidates my army (played trukk spam in 6th ed.)
There is only so much my nerves and budget can take
The waaagh band is perfect for trukk spam. I just wish I had 6-7 trukks!
Delevarius wrote: I am interested in one thing
What happens to the Green Tide formation with the redesign of the Ghazzy suplement ? Because if its gone it will be the second time GW invalidates my army (played trukk spam in 6th ed.)
There is only so much my nerves and budget can take
The waaagh band is perfect for trukk spam. I just wish I had 6-7 trukks!
Trukk Spaam itself is terrible now, due to Mob Rule and Trukkz exploding with str 4
It's not so bad if you can keep everything Fearless the whole game, no pinning or morale tests or mob rule. The problem is adding necessary units afterwards, like Tankbustas. Not everything can be tarpitted by fearless Boyz so you need other units that are actually able to damage things likel SHV and GMC, the problem is that if you want to have those Fearless boyz you won't have enough points left over. I play high points games and even then it's difficult to make any sort of balanced list with this detachment.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/22 19:27:00
Delevarius wrote: I am interested in one thing
What happens to the Green Tide formation with the redesign of the Ghazzy suplement ? Because if its gone it will be the second time GW invalidates my army (played trukk spam in 6th ed.)
There is only so much my nerves and budget can take
The waaagh band is perfect for trukk spam. I just wish I had 6-7 trukks!
Trukk Spaam itself is terrible now, due to Mob Rule and Trukkz exploding with str 4
Yeah, ard boyz is almost mandatory for surviving explosions. But for me half of the times they glance my trukks to death. A better ramshackle rule could have been our saviour though. 4+ ramshakle perhaps?
The trukkerboyz can survive long enough for me if I put the pressure on the enemy with other units like MANZ and warbikers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/22 20:34:47
So GW actually managed to make orks worse with this update, thats imppressive, they have to be trying to get rid of ork players to buy marines , eldar or tau....
- Neva trust a Deff Skull , gitz just wanna take yur lootz
- Only good Deff Skull iz a Ded one !
Delevarius wrote: I am interested in one thing
What happens to the Green Tide formation with the redesign of the Ghazzy suplement ? Because if its gone it will be the second time GW invalidates my army (played trukk spam in 6th ed.)
There is only so much my nerves and budget can take
Trukk Spam is about the only think Orkcurion is good for, as it enables first turn charges
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote: So GW actually managed to make orks worse with this update, thats imppressive, they have to be trying to get rid of ork players to buy marines , eldar or tau....
I've got Ad Mech as a secondary army, so at least i've got something. Also this is how i felt about Sisters, until i actually played them in 7th, i was surprised at how well it worked.
Realistically though, my Orks are staying shelved unless i can run my Homebrew version.
Tbh, thats a standard reply. I have emailed GW on various topics several times and i get the same reply and never see a FAQ, Eratta, or release containing anything to correct the complaint or even ATTEMPT to correct it. And im referring to major ones, not petty ones like Tau not having a viable melee unit for Farsight to join (since the rest of the army is so over the top, they shouldnt have a good melee unit but off topic).
One can hope that if they just get insanely flooded with complaints about the current ork status, they'll FINALLY heed it. The changes you (Frozocrone) suggested arent even major ones that would give the Orks a huge buff, but they would definitely yield play-ability buffs which at this point we need more than topping Eldar/Tau buffs anyway.
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
True Vineheart01, but if implemented it's at least a start and does show they care what we think.
I'm not even about having huge buffs, I just want the army to be competitive. Like, not Decurion, Gladius, Hunter Contingent or Eldar good, but balanced and gives me a chance. I've never been a fan of these super-detachments that give insane bonuses and we can all agree Eldar got buffs where they probably didn't need them and then some.
I at least hope they see that the rules they provide don't support the pushes of sales they are trying to make. I'm not overly optimistic (cannot guarantee is perhaps the biggest fob-off one could recieve), but I like to think my time and effort wasn't wasted.
One can hope that if they just get insanely flooded with complaints about the current ork status, they'll FINALLY heed it. The changes you (Frozocrone) suggested arent even major ones that would give the Orks a huge buff, but they would definitely yield play-ability buffs which at this point we need more than topping Eldar/Tau buffs anyway.
Boy, we can complain all we want, but this is the only update we've gotten in a year and a half. I don't think there's much more coming.
And while this codex is like being tossed a thimbleful of water in the desert, there's some codexes (CSM) for whom the lack of updates is getting ridiculous, at this point.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/23 00:08:42
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Words to live by.
I've done my part, calling the U.S. Tech support line. I asked him if GreenTide had been deleted in the book...he didn't know. He offered to email England and ask them, and he will be calling me back in the morning.
I suggest that we all call the line: 1-800-394-4263. Those in the UK, you might have better luck as you can call direct.
Oh boy, and to think, I thought my Guard got screwed over with their Band-Aid update. Orks have it even worse it seems.
TheEyeOfNight- I swear, this thread is 70% smack talk, 20% RP organization, and 10% butt jokes
TheEyeOfNight- "Ordo Xenos reports that the Necrons have attained democracy, kamikaze tendencies, and nuclear fission. It's all tits up, sir."
Space Marine flyers are shaped for the greatest possible air resistance so that the air may never defeat the SPACE MARINES!
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum
While I will not argue the neglect of orks vrs csm. I reAly do hope you guys get a good codex. But that's the thing, while csm have yet to get anything, there might be still a chance for a great codex...just based on the fact that there isn't a 7th codex for csm yet. We orks got our 7th codex, we got our supliment, we even got our "revised" supplement...and it's all been rubish. And it's very unlikely we will get anything else until a next edition. We had our chance, but gw just didn't want to deliver. Maybe they will wise up when or if they do a csm codex.
We were unlucky in that we got stuff...and that stuff sucks.
Still, I mean no offense to csm, or tyranids or the others gw hasn't paid attention to.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/23 00:40:28
"dont put all yer boyz in one trukk" "umless its dredds, then take as much uf those as possible"
geargutz interpretation of the 'umies "eggs in one basket"
Any confirmation on what the getting started set formation is ? The SW one let's the TWC run and charge , so im guessing the ork one is auto destroyed upon deployment judging by what we got in this "update"
- Neva trust a Deff Skull , gitz just wanna take yur lootz
- Only good Deff Skull iz a Ded one !
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote: Any confirmation on what the getting started set formation is ? The SW one let's the TWC run and charge , so im guessing the ork one is auto destroyed upon deployment judging by what we got in this "update"
I made this rule up as a gag:
Send'em In!: As long as the Painboss mob stays on the field a 30 Boy Slugga mob or a 20 Boy Shoota mob comes in from Reserves at the beginning of each of the starting players turns. These units cost no points, take up no slots and grant no VPs.
So yes, take 4 of these and literally drown your opponents in models!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/23 01:39:18
Vineheart01 wrote: Tbh, thats a standard reply. I have emailed GW on various topics several times and i get the same reply and never see a FAQ, Eratta, or release containing anything to correct the complaint or even ATTEMPT to correct it. And im referring to major ones, not petty ones like Tau not having a viable melee unit for Farsight to join (since the rest of the army is so over the top, they shouldnt have a good melee unit but off topic).
One can hope that if they just get insanely flooded with complaints about the current ork status, they'll FINALLY heed it. The changes you (Frozocrone) suggested arent even major ones that would give the Orks a huge buff, but they would definitely yield play-ability buffs which at this point we need more than topping Eldar/Tau buffs anyway.
To be fair the looted wagon in the white dwarf was a direct response from GW after the ork codex release and people complained. So anything is possible. Personally I sent a reply to GW about the missing greentide formation and asking for ghazkull to be an option instead of the warlord in the Goff kill mob.
That one change would make this decorian much better.
To be fair the looted wagon in the white dwarf was a direct response from GW after the ork codex release and people complained. So anything is possible. Personally I sent a reply to GW about the missing greentide formation and asking for ghazkull to be an option instead of the warlord in the Goff kill mob.
That one change would make this decorian much better.
I just found that issue and i read the stuff one of the guys who wrote it said. In his top 3 favorite things about the Dex he never once mentioned a rule, he just kept going on and on about aestetics, and then i saw his list for a Battle Report and i nearly lost it. He had 4 different types of Mek Gunz in the same unit and had 2004 points while his Nid opponent had 1975. I almost screamed at my computer.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/23 01:50:19
Frozocrone wrote: True Vineheart01, but if implemented it's at least a start and does show they care what we think.
I'm not even about having huge buffs, I just want the army to be competitive. Like, not Decurion, Gladius, Hunter Contingent or Eldar good, but balanced and gives me a chance. I've never been a fan of these super-detachments that give insane bonuses and we can all agree Eldar got buffs where they probably didn't need them and then some.
I at least hope they see that the rules they provide don't support the pushes of sales they are trying to make. I'm not overly optimistic (cannot guarantee is perhaps the biggest fob-off one could recieve), but I like to think my time and effort wasn't wasted.
Im not really a fan of them either. I use them in either big games or when i know my opponent is going to abuse them (i.e. literally any eldar/necron player, most of the SM players around here of every chapter doesnt really use the formations). Only formation im fine bringing with my tau regularly is the retal cadre because another commander + crisis suits...since its the tamest formation rule-wise we got it just has awesome unit slots.
I dont even care if i lose with orks, but i want to put up a fight. If i get tabled, but he only has 1-3 units left, i call it a good game. That doesnt happen anymore, which is why i shelved them. All the top/2nd tier codexes just casually crush orks, its no fun getting tabled almost every game by turn 4 and most of their army is still standing (had a necron warrior squad in my last ork game stall my bikerstar for 4 combat phases. Warboss with stikk, nobklaw, 14 warbikers, painboy, and even a MANz missile for the 3rd/4th phase. WARRIORS just laughed at a crapton of PKs, taking me to the 5th phase before i finally swept him. And somehow this is balanced? Riiight....) Unless i am utterly spamming MANz missiles and warbikers, everything i bring is countered by joke lists. MANz missiles and warbikers arent reliable either, since the moment you face S8 AP2 or better guns the MANz missiles just became very difficult to utilize and just about any ignores cover takes out our bikers, or they just get trumped by other melee units since yaknow...S3 if you charge me first even though im a tough as nails ork.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/23 02:17:43
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ 
+ 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise" 
~1.5k
that's super inconvenient. I used the exact set up as described and it worked perfect, except I called a Waaagh!! which was obviously illegal
Warboss of da Blood Vipers!! We'z gonna crush ya good!! 
ArchMagos Prime of Xenarite Exploratory Fleet Omega VIII
Sisters of the Remorseless Dawn- 4000pts
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang. 
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
