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Made in kr
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





South Korea

 hordrak wrote:
What a lousy formation. Everybody gets a bonus that is either peanent or can be used every turn, but orks get a one use bonus.aybe GW likes to humiliate orks or just hates them?


I am by no means a tournament player but I think this is actually pretty good. Free PK attacks, without suffering from initiative disadvantage sounds pretty good.

Also something about having to time it right to achieve the maximum damage sounds like an interesting tactic.

Then again I run Dread Mobb because I think it's fun so clearly I'm in the wrong crowd :(

 
   
Made in se
Grovelin' Grot Rigger







Spikeybits posted the Painmob formation. So if stuck in combat they get to make an assaultphase during the movement phase. This is pretty nice as the enemy is not allowed to hit back and the orks is allowed to make another assault during the real assault phase. It could work a little bit like consolidate into combat. To bad it's only once per battle!

But still kind of useful!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/25 10:55:03


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 hordrak wrote:
What a lousy formation. Everybody gets a bonus that is either peanent or can be used every turn, but orks get a one use bonus.aybe GW likes to humiliate orks or just hates them?


Wtf are you talking about? It's an amazing ability and one of the best in any starter set.
The core set is extremely flexible. You can take a nob bike squad add a pain boy on bike, Take a 30 man blob of boyz or 12 man trukk boyz And a deff Dred.
You can take morgroks boss boyz, or a cad with the fw bike boss and attach them to the unit as well Or you can keep it cheap. What ever the heck you want.

And once per battle you can Pile in and assault twice without your opponents ability to hit back. That's a pretty big deal and no where near lousy.
The worst thing about formation is the deff dred but it's only an 80pt tax on an ok unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 mazik765 wrote:
 hordrak wrote:
What a lousy formation. Everybody gets a bonus that is either peanent or can be used every turn, but orks get a one use bonus.aybe GW likes to humiliate orks or just hates them?


I am by no means a tournament player but I think this is actually pretty good. Free PK attacks, without suffering from initiative disadvantage sounds pretty good.

Also something about having to time it right to achieve the maximum damage sounds like an interesting tactic.

Then again I run Dread Mobb because I think it's fun so clearly I'm in the wrong crowd :(

Dread mob is a decent army don't listen to the whiners.

This formation bonus is also a fairly cheap way to get an extra painboy into your army. And if you pair this formation with a greentide and place that painboy in the green tide you can potentially get double assaults with the tide. However I'll let someone else argue that one as I think attaching IC to units like that is not intended to transfer detachment bonuses that way. But find a way to get the greentide double pile in moves and assaults would be a massive bonus to that list.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2016/02/25 11:06:25


 
   
Made in au
Irked Necron Immortal





Spoiler:
gungo wrote:
 hordrak wrote:
What a lousy formation. Everybody gets a bonus that is either peanent or can be used every turn, but orks get a one use bonus.aybe GW likes to humiliate orks or just hates them?


Wtf are you talking about? It's an amazing ability and one of the best in any starter set.
The core set is extremely flexible. You can take a nob bike squad add a pain boy on bike, Take a 30 man blob of boyz or 12 man trukk boyz And a deff Dred.
You can take morgroks boss boyz, or a cad with the fw bike boss and attach them to the unit as well Or you can keep it cheap. What ever the heck you want.

And once per battle you can Pile in and assault twice without your opponents ability to hit back. That's a pretty big deal and no where near lousy.
The worst thing about formation is the deff dred but it's only an 80pt tax on an ok unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 mazik765 wrote:
 hordrak wrote:
What a lousy formation. Everybody gets a bonus that is either peanent or can be used every turn, but orks get a one use bonus.aybe GW likes to humiliate orks or just hates them?


I am by no means a tournament player but I think this is actually pretty good. Free PK attacks, without suffering from initiative disadvantage sounds pretty good.

Also something about having to time it right to achieve the maximum damage sounds like an interesting tactic.

Then again I run Dread Mobb because I think it's fun so clearly I'm in the wrong crowd :(

Dread mob is a decent army don't listen to the whiners.

This formation bonus is also a fairly cheap way to get an extra painmob into your army. And if you pair this formation with a greentide and place that painboy in the green tide you can potentially get double assaults with the tide. However I'll let someone else argue that one as I think attaching IC to units like that is not intended to transfer detachment bonuses that way. But find a way to get the greentide double liken moves and assaults would be a massive bonus to that list.


I agree re: the Dred Mob, at least in the environment in which I play. Most people bring a mix of anti-inf and anti-tank, overwhelming them with nothing but armour is usually pretty successful.

With the Painmob...I don't know. You have to go through 2 rounds of combat (assuming you charged) in order to gain the benefit, it's only once per battle, and the entire formation has to do it together, you can't pick individual units. If we used old Fantasy rules and charged in the Movement phase, it'd be great. We'd basically get a free round of combat before the actual combat began, but as it is I can only see it being used for assaults you were already at least drawing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/25 11:09:27


 
   
Made in no
Flashy Flashgitz






What i want? I'll tell you - I want a formation that will relyably reach CC. If those guys do - great, but the effect will beused only in the second round of CC. Attacking without attacks back - great, but -1attack and no FC - bad. They are no more durable than without the formation and I just don't want to pay for a deffdread to get a few extra PK attacks, that may not even happen since I1.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 hordrak wrote:
What i want? I'll tell you - I want a formation that will relyably reach CC. If those guys do - great, but the effect will beused only in the second round of CC. Attacking without attacks back - great, but -1attack and no FC - bad. They are no more durable than without the formation and I just don't want to pay for a deffdread to get a few extra PK attacks, that may not even happen since I1.



I don't think you are looking at the flexibility of this formation.
Here is another list idea spam it!
1 trukk boy unit
3x nob on bike+ painboy on bike.
Deff dred

Repeat 4x for 1520pts that gives you a double assault on 4 formations 4 seperate times whenever you need it. It's MSU with a lot of powerklaws too.
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok





gungo wrote:
 hordrak wrote:
What i want? I'll tell you - I want a formation that will relyably reach CC. If those guys do - great, but the effect will beused only in the second round of CC. Attacking without attacks back - great, but -1attack and no FC - bad. They are no more durable than without the formation and I just don't want to pay for a deffdread to get a few extra PK attacks, that may not even happen since I1.



I don't think you are looking at the flexibility of this formation.
Here is another list idea spam it!
1 trukk boy unit
3x nob on bike+ painboy on bike.
Deff dred

Repeat 4x for 1520pts that gives you a double assault on 4 formations 4 seperate times whenever you need it. It's MSU with a lot of powerklaws too.


Its an interesting Formation, ill give you that, but it being Once per battle makes it less useful and the fact that i have to already be in melee continues to make it less useful.

Though have others have said, this doesnt help Ork survivability, which is our primary issue.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/25 11:54:31


Warboss of da Blood Vipers!! We'z gonna crush ya good!!
ArchMagos Prime of Xenarite Exploratory Fleet Omega VIII
Sisters of the Remorseless Dawn- 4000pts
My Ork Errata: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/664333.page
My Ork-Curion: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/680784.page#8470738 
   
Made in gb
Brainy Zoanthrope






There are a few situations when the pile on the pain could be very useful.

If you are in a combat with just a few models remaining (or against a non fearless army, you could activate the special rule, mop up or break the unit you are fighting, freeing all the units in the combat to charge in the assault phase.
   
Made in no
Flashy Flashgitz






If the formation would allow to make 2 sets of attacks in CC you could assault and get a lot more of attacks that can do damage. As it stands you will get a set of S3 attacks from boys and S4 from nobs. If you take PK you get S8 attacks, but you don't get a lot of thouse as they are realy expensive.
   
Made in nl
Fresh-Faced New User




gungo wrote:
 hordrak wrote:
What i want? I'll tell you - I want a formation that will relyably reach CC. If those guys do - great, but the effect will beused only in the second round of CC. Attacking without attacks back - great, but -1attack and no FC - bad. They are no more durable than without the formation and I just don't want to pay for a deffdread to get a few extra PK attacks, that may not even happen since I1.



I don't think you are looking at the flexibility of this formation.
Here is another list idea spam it!
1 trukk boy unit
3x nob on bike+ painboy on bike.
Deff dred

Repeat 4x for 1520pts that gives you a double assault on 4 formations 4 seperate times whenever you need it. It's MSU with a lot of powerklaws too.


Though you could also just take 2 standard formations. This requires just as much troop choices, gives you just as much HQ slots, and you get far more elite slots (insert tankbusta's). Without having to take 400pt of deff dreads that arrive a turn to late to the party.

Personally I don't see this special rule ever coming into effect, I can count on 1 hand the number of times a combat has lasted more than 2 assault phases. Meaning that for the ability to come into effect only when you get assaulted, in which case you'd probably lose the combat and run away, unless you are fearless.. for which there are only a few option. A shooty boyz horde, that is standing next to a stompa and waits to get charged might be fun All the snap shots

I will give the ork decurion a try as soon as I get another trukk. Have 6 trukk loads of boyz and a nob unit with warboss (hope for a 1 on the ork table) and painboy in a battlewagon. Make everything red, and give them all boarding planks (for a potential 33" charge. add some anti-tank (to get the marines out of their boxes), maybe a unit of warbikes. And pray to Gork and Mork to get turn 1, and finish the game before your opponents gets to do anything.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/25 12:59:46


 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob






So, for those of you that are complaining that this is a one use only formation bonus, can you please explain when you would use this more than once per game?

Because the requirements to use this rule are that you must A) be locked in combat and B) in your movement phase,

which requires you to be engaged in combat for two entire combat phases (yours and your opponents) with a unit you cannot kill in two assault phases, but you need an additional row of attacks in order to kill them. Which would be what exactly? Seems super situational..

I can't imagine the Deff Dread surviving in combat through two combats with a Dreadnought for example.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/25 13:20:09


Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 RFHolloway wrote:
There are a few situations when the pile on the pain could be very useful.

If you are in a combat with just a few models remaining (or against a non fearless army, you could activate the special rule, mop up or break the unit you are fighting, freeing all the units in the combat to charge in the assault phase.


The green tide would benefit immensely from a pile in move and extra assault phase for Orks.
If you ever played with it before. It tends to spread out a bit especially when you multi assault.

Pile in would help consolidate and the extra assault would help keep it moving and clean up.

The problem is I don't think it's quite legal to allow the painboy from this detachment to confer the extra assault/pile in rule to a green tide.
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





 Vineheart01 wrote:
Waaargh wrote:
Except you couldn't previously field W!G in a CAD. I don't know if that has changed... has it?!


You can take a suppliment in any army as a stand-alone CAD. If you do, they adhear to the suppliment exceptions but otherwise behave like a normal codex. In the ork case they have those two abysmal universal rules to deal with and get 0 bonuses outside new relics to toy with.
Farsight lets crisis suits be troops though and prefered enemy: orks in melee. W!G gets nothing even remotely similar.


Not true, the old W!G explicitly stated that you only had access to those relics when using formations or detachments from the supplement, in the very fist rule of the book:

WAAAGH! GHAZGHKULL SPECIAL RULES

If you use the Formations or the Great Waaagh! Detachment in this book, the following supplemental special rules apply to all of the units they contain.


A Waaagh! Ghazghkull CAD was not possible, you had to use the detachment from the book, which was pretty much a CAD with a mandatory elite choice and randomly deep-striking units instead of objective secured.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob






gungo wrote:

The problem is I don't think it's quite legal to allow the painboy from this detachment to confer the extra assault/pile in rule to a green tide.


I guess that would be the interesting question. Also that's pretty grey since the Green Tide has been deleted from the new W!G supplement.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/25 13:40:20


Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak. 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob






Actually, I'm considering the possibilities of this Painmob formation. I could see it being somewhat useful against Necrons Warriors. My experience with Ork Boyz vs. Necron Warriors is that when I assault them, my unit is more often than not locked in CC for the rest of the game. This bonus could help whittle them down some. Not something to build a list around, but a nice bonus. (Please, don't bring up "but what about Wraiths, but what about Flayed Ones, etc." -- this is just an example of one situation where the rule might be useful.)

Perhaps in the future they will give us a bonus that will let us "Pile On Da Pain!" more than once per game? That's just speculation, but a fun idea.

GW really does seem to be pushing Orks to be an assault-only army, don't they?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/25 14:30:02



My P&M blog: Cleatus, the Scratch-building Mekboy
Successful Swap Trades: 6 
   
Made in nl
Fresh-Faced New User




 TedNugent wrote:
gungo wrote:

The problem is I don't think it's quite legal to allow the painboy from this detachment to confer the extra assault/pile in rule to a green tide.


I guess that would be the interesting question. Also that's pretty grey since the Green Tide has been deleted from the new W!G supplement.


The formation rule doesn't come from the painboy, it can die and the rule would still be in place. But the rule only goes for everthing in the formation, which is then by default not the 100+ boyz from the green tide formation. I think that in theory you could put the painboy from the painmob formation in the green tide formation, but then if you use the ability, only the painboy would get a free attack.
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





Nebraska, USA

That rule in painmob is interesting but it wont really do much because once again we lack any way of surviving to utilize it.

Solo deffdredd never gets combat, so hes out.
Footnobz/boyz have a durability issue, and this rule basically requires them to survive 2 assault phases to really benefit from it. MANz could do it, but theyre not in the formation. Boyz and footnobz even with 'eavy armor would either kill their target or die off in that time.

i was expecting some kind of super fnp. Should know better than to expect something good for orks.

An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.

9000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
4000pts Admech/Knights 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




maxonno wrote:
 TedNugent wrote:
gungo wrote:

The problem is I don't think it's quite legal to allow the painboy from this detachment to confer the extra assault/pile in rule to a green tide.


I guess that would be the interesting question. Also that's pretty grey since the Green Tide has been deleted from the new W!G supplement.


The formation rule doesn't come from the painboy, it can die and the rule would still be in place. But the rule only goes for everthing in the formation, which is then by default not the 100+ boyz from the green tide formation. I think that in theory you could put the painboy from the painmob formation in the green tide formation, but then if you use the ability, only the painboy would get a free attack.


That's the way I play it. However there are those who argue that the detachments rules are a per unit basis not model and as long as one model has the rule then that unit benefits.

This is also a neat combination since the warlord can take the fearless boss poll and the green tide can waagh each turn. Greatly benefiting the pain boy formation.

But as I said I agree with you and don't play that way.

The green tide is also still legal according to GW.
   
Made in it
Fresh-Faced New User





 JimOnMars wrote:
Nothing is going to change unless we all CALL THEM.


i would also suggest to call or send them an email (with constructive comments)
I know, probably, they would not listen to us and change the rules, but there is a chance, it doesn't cost anything to do it and maybe they will use our suggestion.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




There is a chance. That's how the looted wagon was put into white dwarf even though GW was moving toward no models means no rules.

Personally I think we can get the green tide back into the book or white dwarf and possibly ghaz as a warlord choice for the waaagh detachement. That's all I think we truly need. That allows you a painboy hq, and a waagh detachment led by ghaz with enough points to add decent aux. ghaz would still be a 225pt tax but he would be a force multiplier.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/25 15:35:28


 
   
Made in ca
Been Around the Block




Does anyone have the book yet? Is someone able to tell us what the tactical objectives are? I think that's the only thing really missing
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine






Boulder, CO

 Bardiel_03 wrote:
 JimOnMars wrote:
Nothing is going to change unless we all CALL THEM.


i would also suggest to call or send them an email (with constructive comments)
I know, probably, they would not listen to us and change the rules, but there is a chance, it doesn't cost anything to do it and maybe they will use our suggestion.


I totally agree with this sentiment, but I think the Ork player base needs to come up with a sound argument first. I'm not a rules writer, or I'd get the ball rolling. We need someone who is a solid rules lawyer to get started on this. I'll help in any way possible.
   
Made in it
Fresh-Faced New User





 matphat wrote:
 Bardiel_03 wrote:
 JimOnMars wrote:
Nothing is going to change unless we all CALL THEM.


i would also suggest to call or send them an email (with constructive comments)
I know, probably, they would not listen to us and change the rules, but there is a chance, it doesn't cost anything to do it and maybe they will use our suggestion.


I totally agree with this sentiment, but I think the Ork player base needs to come up with a sound argument first. I'm not a rules writer, or I'd get the ball rolling. We need someone who is a solid rules lawyer to get started on this. I'll help in any way possible.


Frozocrone mail has some solid suggestion:

 Frozocrone wrote:
I emailed GW last week concerning this release and got a reply this morning. I'm hoping that they do pay attention (although I completely forgot to add Ghaz to my complaints) but they did reply and this is what they had to say.

My email
Spoiler:
To whom it may concern,

I have recently seen the Ork rules as published in the new updated supplement and as a customer, I am very disappointed with the treatment they have been given. I feel as if my previous books that I purchased have become obsolete, since the formations as shown in the book are copied and pasted from existing books, with minor changes (such as Rage instead of Furious Charge on Gorkanauts) It would have been nice to see a large variety of new formations as opposed to three Flyer formations that could just have easily been condensed into one, let alone the fact there already was the Skyboss Wingnutz formation. There are other things that the formations and/or the units themselves need, but that is not why I am disappointed.

In addition to that, there are no new models (Grukk does not count, as he was released in Stormclaw) and no new Codex announced that would address the current problems in the army that I find keep appearing every time I use my Orks. Again, this is not why I am disappointed.

This is why I am disappointed. What should have been done, was a complete rewrite of the Codex and rules. Here are just a few of the things I can think off the top of my head that would have made me support this purchase:

1) There should have been a formation that allowed you to take multiple Painboyz/Wierdboyz/Big Meks with bonuses for each model, as opposed to only one per core. Possibly with a 4++ Feel no Pain, harness psychic powers on 3+, have free Wargear respectively.

2) Ork Boyz should not have been six units in the Warband (or three in the case of the Goff Killmob). Some people want to run more, some people want to run less. Every other super-formation (e.g. Decurion, Warhost, Hunter Contingent) has always allowed flexibility in the amount of what units and how many you can bring for your core. For example, the Necron Decurion allows you to take an Overlord which can be swapped out for a number 0-2 Monoliths, 0-3 Lychguard, 1-4 units of Immortals 1-3 units of Tomb Blades and 2-8 units of Necron Warriors.The only flexibility Orks have across their core formations is exchanging the Nobz for Meganobz and the Warboss for Grukk.

3) General re-writes to the rules that support releases. Gorkanauts/Morkanauts should have been immune to the vehicle damage chart like super heavies are, being the same size as Imperial Knights that they are. Deff Dreads should have been immune to Crew Shaken/Stunned, as well as been able to put in squadrons. Considering your company is pushing sales of Ork Walkers, having rules that are good would tempt me to part with my money.

4) As for changes in the rules of the units themselves, there are far too many to go through, but here are a few.
[a]Three Nobz with Power Klaws are more expensive than three Meganobz, with considerably worse stats.
[b] Vehicles can purchase Stikkbombs, but most units already have Stikkbombs which renders the upgrade close to useless.
[c] Red Paint Jobs forfeit a turn of shooting just to move an extra inch.
[d] Nob Bikers are more expensive than Thunderwolf Cavalry, while having worse stats.
[e] Cybork bodies can be rendered obsolete simply by adding a Painboy or Mad Dok Grotsnik to a unit.
[f] Da Boss iz Watchin' should have been +/- 2 to Mob Rule. Although Mob Rule is in itself, a bad rule due to how it works, the current form of Da Boss iz Watchin basically renders the table moot, where a D6 of 2-5 automatically results in Squabble. Not everyone wants to run thirty boyz in a squad.

Despite this, none of what I have proposed, or even something to that effect, was implemented. So that leaves the question, what encourages me and a lot of other Ork players to spend their money on this release? Simply put, very little, if anything. To me, this release shows a clear lack of knowledge and/or interest in your game, as well as what your customers want.

Suffice to say, I have become disillusioned with your company and will not be supporting this purchase.

[...]


in the mail that i have sent i commented mainly the supplement:

Spoiler:
- The core formations are too costly, point wise, and not flexible at all.
- In a full game a player, usually, uses something like 1500 or 1800 points, now the waagh band+the council of waagh units are 1200 point WITHOUT any upgrade, this clearly makes it close to impossible to even think of playing this units, making them useless in the game.
- The waagh-band requires too many boyz and does not have any specific options. For example, it could be re-balanced by requiring only 3 or from 3 to 6 boyz and include other options like tankbusta, loota or warbikers. These features would strongly balance this unit and increase its likability.
- The goff kill mob requires too many boyz and a lot of walkers, yet, it does not provide any help in rendering the walker more survivable.
- The main benefit of the detachment seems to be the ability to waagh every turn with Ghazkull to give him a 2+ invulnerable save and fearless treat to the army. On paper, this is fantastic, but the only way to play him is in a formation of 600 points, and if you buy any upgrade in that formation the cost skyrockets and makes it unrealistic to be able to make such a play. Since it is a goff detachment, let us use the ghazkull in place of any worboss in the goff kill mob or in the waagh band.
- "Da boss Iz Watchin' " rule is worse then the regular mob rule. When one plays orks he does not always want a high roll in the mob rule table. Whereas, if the rule was something like: "you can add or SUBTRACT 2 from the mob rule table" it would have been much more balanced.
- Unfortunately I have to say that the 3 new formation released seem rushed, and are mediocre at best. They are not on the same level as the past work done by the company.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/25 16:38:45


 
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





This formation is crap. Any enemy unit that has survived combat for 2 turns with boyz or nobz isn't going to be phased by a few more strength 3 attacks. The vast majority of time the orks will either win or be swept after 2 combats.
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine






Boulder, CO

 Bardiel_03 wrote:
 matphat wrote:
 Bardiel_03 wrote:
 JimOnMars wrote:
Nothing is going to change unless we all CALL THEM.


i would also suggest to call or send them an email (with constructive comments)
I know, probably, they would not listen to us and change the rules, but there is a chance, it doesn't cost anything to do it and maybe they will use our suggestion.


I totally agree with this sentiment, but I think the Ork player base needs to come up with a sound argument first. I'm not a rules writer, or I'd get the ball rolling. We need someone who is a solid rules lawyer to get started on this. I'll help in any way possible.


Frozocrone mail has some solid suggestion:

 Frozocrone wrote:
I emailed GW last week concerning this release and got a reply this morning. I'm hoping that they do pay attention (although I completely forgot to add Ghaz to my complaints) but they did reply and this is what they had to say.

My email
Spoiler:
To whom it may concern,

I have recently seen the Ork rules as published in the new updated supplement and as a customer, I am very disappointed with the treatment they have been given. I feel as if my previous books that I purchased have become obsolete, since the formations as shown in the book are copied and pasted from existing books, with minor changes (such as Rage instead of Furious Charge on Gorkanauts) It would have been nice to see a large variety of new formations as opposed to three Flyer formations that could just have easily been condensed into one, let alone the fact there already was the Skyboss Wingnutz formation. There are other things that the formations and/or the units themselves need, but that is not why I am disappointed.

In addition to that, there are no new models (Grukk does not count, as he was released in Stormclaw) and no new Codex announced that would address the current problems in the army that I find keep appearing every time I use my Orks. Again, this is not why I am disappointed.

This is why I am disappointed. What should have been done, was a complete rewrite of the Codex and rules. Here are just a few of the things I can think off the top of my head that would have made me support this purchase:

1) There should have been a formation that allowed you to take multiple Painboyz/Wierdboyz/Big Meks with bonuses for each model, as opposed to only one per core. Possibly with a 4++ Feel no Pain, harness psychic powers on 3+, have free Wargear respectively.

2) Ork Boyz should not have been six units in the Warband (or three in the case of the Goff Killmob). Some people want to run more, some people want to run less. Every other super-formation (e.g. Decurion, Warhost, Hunter Contingent) has always allowed flexibility in the amount of what units and how many you can bring for your core. For example, the Necron Decurion allows you to take an Overlord which can be swapped out for a number 0-2 Monoliths, 0-3 Lychguard, 1-4 units of Immortals 1-3 units of Tomb Blades and 2-8 units of Necron Warriors.The only flexibility Orks have across their core formations is exchanging the Nobz for Meganobz and the Warboss for Grukk.

3) General re-writes to the rules that support releases. Gorkanauts/Morkanauts should have been immune to the vehicle damage chart like super heavies are, being the same size as Imperial Knights that they are. Deff Dreads should have been immune to Crew Shaken/Stunned, as well as been able to put in squadrons. Considering your company is pushing sales of Ork Walkers, having rules that are good would tempt me to part with my money.

4) As for changes in the rules of the units themselves, there are far too many to go through, but here are a few.
[a]Three Nobz with Power Klaws are more expensive than three Meganobz, with considerably worse stats.
[b] Vehicles can purchase Stikkbombs, but most units already have Stikkbombs which renders the upgrade close to useless.
[c] Red Paint Jobs forfeit a turn of shooting just to move an extra inch.
[d] Nob Bikers are more expensive than Thunderwolf Cavalry, while having worse stats.
[e] Cybork bodies can be rendered obsolete simply by adding a Painboy or Mad Dok Grotsnik to a unit.
[f] Da Boss iz Watchin' should have been +/- 2 to Mob Rule. Although Mob Rule is in itself, a bad rule due to how it works, the current form of Da Boss iz Watchin basically renders the table moot, where a D6 of 2-5 automatically results in Squabble. Not everyone wants to run thirty boyz in a squad.

Despite this, none of what I have proposed, or even something to that effect, was implemented. So that leaves the question, what encourages me and a lot of other Ork players to spend their money on this release? Simply put, very little, if anything. To me, this release shows a clear lack of knowledge and/or interest in your game, as well as what your customers want.

Suffice to say, I have become disillusioned with your company and will not be supporting this purchase.

[...]


in the mail that i have sent i commented mainly the supplement:

Spoiler:
- The core formations are too costly, point wise, and not flexible at all.
- In a full game a player, usually, uses something like 1500 or 1800 points, now the waagh band+the council of waagh units are 1200 point WITHOUT any upgrade, this clearly makes it close to impossible to even think of playing this units, making them useless in the game.
- The waagh-band requires too many boyz and does not have any specific options. For example, it could be re-balanced by requiring only 3 or from 3 to 6 boyz and include other options like tankbusta, loota or warbikers. These features would strongly balance this unit and increase its likability.
- The goff kill mob requires too many boyz and a lot of walkers, yet, it does not provide any help in rendering the walker more survivable.
- The main benefit of the detachment seems to be the ability to waagh every turn with Ghazkull to give him a 2+ invulnerable save and fearless treat to the army. On paper, this is fantastic, but the only way to play him is in a formation of 600 points, and if you buy any upgrade in that formation the cost skyrockets and makes it unrealistic to be able to make such a play. Since it is a goff detachment, let us use the ghazkull in place of any worboss in the goff kill mob or in the waagh band.
- "Da boss Iz Watchin' " rule is worse then the regular mob rule. When one plays orks he does not always want a high roll in the mob rule table. Whereas, if the rule was something like: "you can add or SUBTRACT 2 from the mob rule table" it would have been much more balanced.
- Unfortunately I have to say that the 3 new formation released seem rushed, and are mediocre at best. They are not on the same level as the past work done by the company.


Looks like a great start. I'll read though it all and see what I can add. I feel like we should build a comprehensive list with all the reasonable arguments, and with comparisons to as many recent examples from other armies as we can find and really try and hammer it home.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






FWIW, I sent an email to GW yesterday and got a pretty quick reply:

Spoiler:
To The Games Workshop Customer Service Dept.,

I have a few complaints about one of your recent products, and was hoping my letter could be passed on to the GW Games Design team.

I’ve been a loyal Games Workshop customer for years, specifically as a fan of Orks in Warhammer 40,000. I’ve amassed thousands of points in models and hours of fun gameplay. I was waiting anxiously for the upcoming Waaagh! Ghazgkull supplement revision that, I thought, would give my favorite army some much-needed oomph for a seventh edition metagame that sees several armies becoming decidedly advantageous to play over others.

I’m sad to say the product didn’t live up to my expectations.

I would like to say I’m not solely complaining. Though there are definitely some interesting new mechanics in the form of detachments and formations that could impact higher-points-value games (1850pts and up) for Ork players, the unfortunate fact is that little of the new material included in the supplement is significant for small- to medium-sized points games (1000-1500pt) - which is the majority of the games played in my area. Requiring the use of the Council of Waaagh! formation to be able to utilize any customization of your army while ensuring the Fearless special rule is a handicap for most Ork players.

Other armies, such as Eldar and Necron, have army-specific detachments using core formations that are flexible and allow for a range of play styles at many different points levels. The ability to compete with these detachments is something Orks have been needing for a while. I definitely understand that one of the main rules of 40K is to have fun, narrative-fuled games with your opponent, and to adjust any rules as you see fit, but most players - at least in the United States - prefer to play using only the rules as presented in official GW materials. Obviously Warhammer 40,000 is a game, and games should be played for fun, but when an opponent has a decided advantage over you, the enjoyment diminishes rapidly.

This letter isn’t simply criticism as I do have a suggestion which would help ameliorate the problems I outlined; it would be very easy to implement and would drive sales of models.

Allowing a player to substitute Ghazghkull for a Warboss in the Waaagh-band and Goff Killmob (or as an alternative to Grukk Face-rippa in the case of the Killmob) would allow players to benefit from all the rules of the Great Waaagh-band in games using lower to mid points levels. This could be distributed as an errata online, or published as a few lines in a future issue of White Dwarf Weekly.

It would also boost sales of the Ghazghkull miniature itself - I currently don’t own one, as I wouldn’t find much use for it in the games I play. I know that if this errata was introduced, my next purchase would be a Ghazghkull model, and I suspect many other players would follow suit. As is, I would have a hard time recommending the purchase of this model, and indeed the Waaagh! Ghazghkull supplement in general.

Thanks very much for taking the time to read this letter, and I hope my suggestion will be taken into consideration.

Regards


This is what I got back a few hours later:

Spoiler:
Thanks for writing into us with your feedback of Orks. I appreciate you taking the time to detail your concerns for the rules of Codex: Orks and Waaagh! Ghazghkull- A Codex: Ork Supplement, and the direction of Orks in Warhammer 40,000 7th Edition. Your examples help to paint a picture of your concerns for Orks, and to show the limitations you see on the faction. While Customer Service is not directly involved in the design process, we will send your comments to the appropriate parties (Design Studio and Publications Team) as feedback for consideration; that puts the onus on us to make Orks desirable for you as our customer.

Please let me know if you have any other concerns, or should you have any questions (or additional feedback).

Hopefully, we can make it fun and exciting for you to play Orks again.

--
David Monroe
custserv@gwplc.com


I think it's definitely worth sending emails and calling. If enough people are doing it, GW will at least know it's not a handful of one-off cranks and sore losers. Giving ideas and suggestions along with positively-worded criticism also shows we're not all psychos with amger management (we just like to PLAY them in 40K).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/25 16:55:42


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





UK

Yeah I wrote that email when I was salty at the treatment Orks were given. I could have been more thoughtful in constructive criticism as opposed to ' You haven't done this! Not buying your stuff! Wahwahwahwahwah!'

I just hope it comes off as 'concerned consumer who isn't willing to part with their money' as opposed to 'this guy mad because Orks < Eldar'

I too would purchase Ghaz, or at least scratch build a version of him since I hate finecast, should he be errated into Warband.

YMDC = nightmare 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






That's just a wordier version of the stock response. Acknowledge your concerns, empathize, pass the buck, encouragement. It's the same format that others have posted and what I got when expressing concerns regarding 6th and 7th editions of 40k.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






 warboss wrote:
That's just a wordier version of the stock response. Acknowledge your concerns, empathize, pass the buck, encouragement. It's the same format that others have posted and what I got when expressing concerns regarding 6th and 7th editions of 40k.


Yeah, but it's slso coming from customer support. About a product that still hasn't seen wide release (right now it's still just early updates to digital versions). The people answering these emails literally don't have anything else TO say. We're not looking to get a response from them that rules are changing, we're asking them to pass these complaints and comments along to the design team in the hopes they'll announce a change. It's sending these emails in volume to let GW know we're not OK with the rules.
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok





I want to write an Email, but id probably just come off as super pissed. In any event im just gonna vote with my Wallet and playtest my homebrew.

Warboss of da Blood Vipers!! We'z gonna crush ya good!!
ArchMagos Prime of Xenarite Exploratory Fleet Omega VIII
Sisters of the Remorseless Dawn- 4000pts
My Ork Errata: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/664333.page
My Ork-Curion: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/680784.page#8470738 
   
 
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