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Tropic Thunder wrote:
I. Loathe. Grey Knights. I hate them. Actually, there's no real word to describe how much I despise Grey Knights. If such a word were created, I would say it wasn't enough.

This unmitigated hatred comes from the fact that the vast majority of people who play them do the SAME damn list EVERY single time: All 2+ armor, heavy Alpha Strike. No creativity, crutches that have crutches for bad strategy and the ability to ID whatever the heck they want thanks to Force weaponry that affects every model. As a Tyranid player, there's nothing worse. As a Daemon player, that's just great; Preferred Enemy on top of saving most every wound. More Psychic dice than they know what to do with. And Torrent on Dreadknights besides? Great... Thanks.

I can't even think what second place would be. It would be like a race across America starting at Los Angeles port. When Grey Knights reaches the Jersey shore every other army crossed the California-Nevada border....

I play GK and I hate them too. Really only 1 good unit in the army (NDK) - hence the lack of creativity. My advice to you would be to sit your MC in cover and then you get to strike first against the knight - and save all your denial dice to counter activate force (everything else you can let by). I'd also advise you to bring tervigons. Spamming fearless fodder to tie up the NDK is a great way to beat them. Flyrants can wither them down pretty good too.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Tropic Thunder wrote:
I. Loathe. Grey Knights. I hate them. Actually, there's no real word to describe how much I despise Grey Knights. If such a word were created, I would say it wasn't enough.

This unmitigated hatred comes from the fact that the vast majority of people who play them do the SAME damn list EVERY single time: All 2+ armor, heavy Alpha Strike. No creativity, crutches that have crutches for bad strategy and the ability to ID whatever the heck they want thanks to Force weaponry that affects every model. As a Tyranid player, there's nothing worse. As a Daemon player, that's just great; Preferred Enemy on top of saving most every wound. More Psychic dice than they know what to do with. And Torrent on Dreadknights besides? Great... Thanks.

I can't even think what second place would be. It would be like a race across America starting at Los Angeles port. When Grey Knights reaches the Jersey shore every other army crossed the California-Nevada border....

I play GK and I hate them too. Really only 1 good unit in the army (NDK) - hence the lack of creativity. My advice to you would be to sit your MC in cover and then you get to strike first against the knight - and save all your denial dice to counter activate force (everything else you can let by). I'd also advise you to bring tervigons. Spamming fearless fodder to tie up the NDK is a great way to beat them. Flyrants can wither them down pretty good too.

Can't even blame him for complaining about the fact you play against one semi-competent GK army you've played against them all. It is just a bad codex. Needs more options.

I voted tau. Mostly because of the whole cover doesn't matter and the way I play orks I can't even get across the field unless its dawn of war deployment. I tend to footslog orks so normally I don't even get in charge range if it is hammer and anvil deployment. So ya with the markerlights they can boost BS and ignore your cover and the overwatch is brutal. So that's why I could fix it by playing speed freaks but I don't like them as much.

Of the few I've fought orks. It's so boring. They just run across the table usually and get gunned down.

Necrons due to that ultra-FnP derpfest. Nothing dies while they zoom around the table vapourising everything you have.

I've voted for Space Marines for 3 major reasons. ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, and Grav. My god do I hate grav spam. Virtually everything is vulnerable to it and anything that's not can just be shredded by regular firepower instead. ATSKNF is a terrible rule that all but makes marines immune to morale and a few special rules in the game. Really it's better fearless that all marines get for free. Then you get chapter tactics, again for free, that make your troopers much better, and sometimes can transfer over to your other marines/guardsmen/inquisitors/assassins that you took as allies or a formation by just attaching a cheap character to them. Maybe it's because so many people have marine armies that they just don't seem to notice how crazy some of the stuff they get is, but I just find it totally annoying.

 GimbleMuggernaught wrote:
I've voted for Space Marines for 3 major reasons. ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, and Grav. My god do I hate grav spam. Virtually everything is vulnerable to it and anything that's not can just be shredded by regular firepower instead. ATSKNF is a terrible rule that all but makes marines immune to morale and a few special rules in the game. Really it's better fearless that all marines get for free.

ATSKNF is actually a weaker version of fearless. It 1. lets marines automatically regroup, 2. allows marines to ignore fear and 3. and prevents marines from being "run over" or whatever it's called after fleeing from close combat.

And marines don't get it for free. The base tactical marine is 14 points per model.

Then you get chapter tactics, again for free

Sure. If you want to call 14 points or more per model "free."

that make your troopers much better, and sometimes can transfer over to your other marines/guardsmen/inquisitors/assassins that you took as allies or a formation by just attaching a cheap character to them. I can't think of any instances right off hand where that would happen. Maybe it's because so many people have marine armies that they just don't seem to notice how crazy some of the stuff they get is, but I just find it totally annoying.

What army do you play?

Traditio wrote:
The base tactical marine is 14 points per model.

Which lets you field almost 110 of them in a 1500 point game... Knowing you, you actually do field that many.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Traditio wrote:
The base tactical marine is 14 points per model.

Which lets you field almost 110 of them in a 1500 point game... Knowing you, you actually do field that many.

How much does an ork boy cost? Imperial guard conscript?

What about necron warriors?

Traditio wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Traditio wrote:
The base tactical marine is 14 points per model.

Which lets you field almost 110 of them in a 1500 point game... Knowing you, you actually do field that many.

How much does an ork boy cost? Imperial guard conscript?

What about necron warriors?

Does it matter? You play Codex: Tactical Marines. All your dudes wound and glance on 6's automatically.

I voted Space Marines, mainly because of Skyhammer and drop pod armies in general. I HATE drop pod armies; they are usually all kinds of broken and usually eat half my army on the first turn.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I voted Space Marines, mainly because of Skyhammer and drop pod armies in general. I HATE drop pod armies; they are usually all kinds of broken and usually eat half my army on the first turn.

What if there is a space marine army that doesn't use drop pods at all? Or Rhinos... Or Razorbacks?

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I voted Space Marines, mainly because of Skyhammer and drop pod armies in general. I HATE drop pod armies; they are usually all kinds of broken and usually eat half my army on the first turn.

What if there is a space marine army that doesn't use drop pods at all? Or Rhinos... Or Razorbacks?

That's the problem with the poll; really I don't hate ALL space marines (hell, my main army is Dark Angels), just the ones with like nine drop pods and the Skyhammer Annihilation force, especially with Ultramarines and their doctrines letting them reroll everything.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I voted Space Marines, mainly because of Skyhammer and drop pod armies in general. I HATE drop pod armies; they are usually all kinds of broken and usually eat half my army on the first turn.

What if there is a space marine army that doesn't use drop pods at all? Or Rhinos... Or Razorbacks?

That's the problem with the poll; really I don't hate ALL space marines (hell, my main army is Dark Angels), just the ones with like nine drop pods and the Skyhammer Annihilation force, especially with Ultramarines and their doctrines letting them reroll everything.

I play Ultrasmurfs for the Characters... I don't use the demi company... or the tactics...

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I voted Space Marines, mainly because of Skyhammer and drop pod armies in general. I HATE drop pod armies; they are usually all kinds of broken and usually eat half my army on the first turn.

What if there is a space marine army that doesn't use drop pods at all? Or Rhinos... Or Razorbacks?

That's the problem with the poll; really I don't hate ALL space marines (hell, my main army is Dark Angels), just the ones with like nine drop pods and the Skyhammer Annihilation force, especially with Ultramarines and their doctrines letting them reroll everything.

I play Ultrasmurfs for the Characters... I don't use the demi company... or the tactics...

Honestly, I would rather face a full battle company and their free transports than an all drop pod army. At least I would feel like I could actually kill something before I get blown off the table.

ZergSmasher wrote: I HATE drop pod armies; they are usually all kinds of broken

So says the guy who plays dark angels, tau and khorne demonkin?

But I'm sure your dark angels army has zero bikes, right?

I'm sure that your tau army has no riptides or marker lights, yes?

And you probably don't exploit all of the trickery and assorted nonsense for which the demonkin are so popular, am I right?

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I voted Space Marines, mainly because of Skyhammer and drop pod armies in general. I HATE drop pod armies; they are usually all kinds of broken and usually eat half my army on the first turn.

What if there is a space marine army that doesn't use drop pods at all? Or Rhinos... Or Razorbacks?

That's the problem with the poll; really I don't hate ALL space marines (hell, my main army is Dark Angels), just the ones with like nine drop pods and the Skyhammer Annihilation force, especially with Ultramarines and their doctrines letting them reroll everything.

I play Ultrasmurfs for the Characters... I don't use the demi company... or the tactics...

Honestly, I would rather face a full battle company and their free transports than an all drop pod army. At least I would feel like I could actually kill something before I get blown off the table.

I really like a Stronghold assault scenerio on a Cities of Death board (IE, rhinos take Dangerous terrain tests every turn). Really gives a middle finger to deep striking. I feel like that's what the game lacks, diversity. Y'all just play the same scenerios and complain when you could be using all the other scenerios in all the other books.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Traditio wrote:

ZergSmasher wrote: I HATE drop pod armies; they are usually all kinds of broken

So says the guy who plays dark angels, tau and khorne demonkin?

But I'm sure your dark angels army has zero bikes, right?

I'm sure your army has nothing but Tactical Marines, right?

Tactical_Spam wrote:I'm sure your army has nothing but Tactical Marines, right?

Check your PMs in roughly two minutes.

Traditio wrote:

Tactical_Spam wrote:I'm sure your army has nothing but Tactical Marines, right?

Check your PMs in roughly two minutes.

1500 point list: Space Marines

HQ:

Captain
Storm Bolter
Melta bombs
100 points

Troops
10x Tactical Squads w/ 10 men
140 points each

Total: 1500

Traditio wrote:
But I'm sure your dark angels army has zero bikes, right?

Ravenwing are not as broken as many other things, they have many counters (Hellturkeys, Tau with Markerlights, fast Assault units like Dark Eldar jetbikes, etc.). They are probably the cheesiest thing I run though.

Traditio wrote:
I'm sure that your tau army has no riptides or marker lights, yes?

Actually I do not own any Riptides, and I don't have that many markerlight units.

Traditio wrote:
And you probably don't exploit all of the trickery and assorted nonsense for which the demonkin are so popular, am I right?

I don't even have any Chaos bikes to run the infamous Gorepack formation. I run Khorne's Bloodstorm instead, a formation that is definitely inferior to the Gorepack.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Traditio wrote:
But I'm sure your dark angels army has zero bikes, right?

Ravenwing are not as broken as many other things, they have many counters (Hellturkeys, Tau with Markerlights, fast Assault units like Dark Eldar jetbikes, etc.). They are probably the cheesiest thing I run though.

See the bolded/underlined for irony lulz.

Traditio wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Traditio wrote:
But I'm sure your dark angels army has zero bikes, right?

Ravenwing are not as broken as many other things, they have many counters (Hellturkeys, Tau with Markerlights, fast Assault units like Dark Eldar jetbikes, etc.). They are probably the cheesiest thing I run though.

See the bolded/underlined for irony lulz.

Its not ironic, its coincidental. I play space marines, have a box of Thunderwolves, Stealth suits, Chaos Space Marines, Skitarii Rangers, Tempestus Scions and WHFB dire wolves... Does this make me a cheese monger? Does running the Librarian conclave using telekinesis or pyromancy only make me a cheese monger because I also own Thunderwolves?

Tactical_Spam wrote:Its not ironic, its coincidental. I play space marines, have a box of Thunderwolves, Stealth suits, Chaos Space Marines, Skitarii Rangers, Tempestus Scions and WHFB dire wolves... Does this make me a cheese monger? Does running the Librarian conclave using telekinesis or pyromancy only make me a cheese monger because I also own Thunderwolves?

Don't know. Don't care.

Personally, I wouldn't want to play you regardless of what army you were using.

Traditio wrote:

 GimbleMuggernaught wrote:
I've voted for Space Marines for 3 major reasons. ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, and Grav. My god do I hate grav spam. Virtually everything is vulnerable to it and anything that's not can just be shredded by regular firepower instead. ATSKNF is a terrible rule that all but makes marines immune to morale and a few special rules in the game. Really it's better fearless that all marines get for free.

ATSKNF is actually a weaker version of fearless. It 1. lets marines automatically regroup, 2. allows marines to ignore fear and 3. and prevents marines from being "run over" or whatever it's called after fleeing from close combat.

And marines don't get it for free. The base tactical marine is 14 points per model.

Then you get chapter tactics, again for free

Sure. If you want to call 14 points or more per model "free."

that make your troopers much better, and sometimes can transfer over to your other marines/guardsmen/inquisitors/assassins that you took as allies or a formation by just attaching a cheap character to them. I can't think of any instances right off hand where that would happen. Maybe it's because so many people have marine armies that they just don't seem to notice how crazy some of the stuff they get is, but I just find it totally annoying.

What army do you play?

ATSKNF is generally better than fearless because of the options it gives you. You can still go to ground, you can flee from a combat that you're ill-suited for. If you do fail a morale it pretty much doesn't matter because you can still act normally the next turn, so unless you run off the table it's not really a huge deal.

Obviously you pay a base points cost for your models. I'm saying that these rules are applied to the models for no additional points cost over a similar model, or at the least very little. If me more serves, a chaos marine is a single point cheaper than a tactical marine but doesn't get any special rules, never mind completely amazing ones like ATSKNF and hit and run.

I play primarily Chaos Marines. You may understand my frustration playing the army that right now is just marines without any of the good toys. I do also play Eldar, but I steer away from the more hanky units like warp spiders and scatterbikes as a general rule (no more than 1 unit of each in a list, and often less), and I almost never use formations. I know exactly how rediculous Eldar can be, but I think that people seem blind to the fact that Marines can be equally dirty in many situations.

But then again, it seems like you're just trying to be a troll, so whatever.

Traditio wrote:

Tactical_Spam wrote:Its not ironic, its coincidental. I play space marines, have a box of Thunderwolves, Stealth suits, Chaos Space Marines, Skitarii Rangers, Tempestus Scions and WHFB dire wolves... Does this make me a cheese monger? Does running the Librarian conclave using telekinesis or pyromancy only make me a cheese monger because I also own Thunderwolves?

Don't know. Don't care.

Personally, I wouldn't want to play you regardless of what army you were using.

Trust me, I am a fun person IRL. I only prod you on Dakka because you complained that bolters are useless against armour

GimbleMuggernaught wrote:ATSKNF is generally better than fearless because of the options it gives you. You can still go to ground, you can flee from a combat that you're ill-suited for. If you do fail a morale it pretty much doesn't matter because you can still act normally the next turn, so unless you run off the table it's not really a huge deal.

Personally, I'd rather have all of my marines have fearless. Fearless units auto-pass pinning checks.

Obviously you pay a base points cost for your models. I'm saying that these rules are applied to the models for no additional points cost over a similar model, or at the least very little. If me more serves, a chaos marine is a single point cheaper than a tactical marine but doesn't get any special rules, never mind completely amazing ones like ATSKNF and hit and run.

Don't most people think that chaos marines are overcosted?

At any rate, as I said before:

Compare a tactical space marine to a necron warrior. Compare a tactical space marine to whatever the points equivalence in tau fire warriors is.

Unless a marine player is playing another marine player, he pretty much inevitably gets swarmed by armies of specialists.

That's annoys me.

I play primarily Chaos Marines. You may understand my frustration playing the army that right now is just marines without any of the good toys.

As a chaos marine player you dislike playing vanilla marines more than Eldar? Tau? Necrons?

Being pinned is annoying, but from what I've seen it rarely comes up against marines. Maybe you see a lot more pinning weapons than I do.

Tactical marines are not the only thing in your army, and virtually everything in the army gets these special rules. Your chapter tactics may not be as powerful as say battle focus, but the combination of chapter tactics, ATSKNF, and combat squads certainly is. If you're using nothing but unsupported tactical marines to fight specialists at their own game, then it's not the units fault.

As for your final point, the answer is a yes. The others are frustrating to be sure, but it somehow just seems more personal to fight marines. Like a slap in the face. You're fighting an army that is extremely similar to yours, but infinitely better for the same or even less cost. The other armies are different enough that it doesn't seem as bad. More like they just have something else going on that happens to be better, rather than an army that seems designed specifically to be better.

Space marines easily. Oh, another mureen player with almost the same min/max setup, how shocking.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Space marines easily. Oh, another mureen player with almost the same min/max setup, how shocking.

Define that set up?

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Space marines easily. Oh, another mureen player with almost the same min/max setup, how shocking.

You do realize that not all of us Marine players run that setup?