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 Vaktathi wrote:
3 Wyverns are 195pts, not 110, and LRBT's are widely renowned as amongs the poorest options in the book. Eldar will do far worse things to power armor

You're right on the points cost.

And I politely disagree. I lost Huron and 13 CSMs to LRBTs in a single round last time.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
OK, fair enough then. Tho I would note that I only have 1 Wyvern. For now.

Then we'd have no problem!

My 100 Cultists charging across the battlefield, hulking Dreadnought behind them, supported by autocannon fire from the Havocs, CSMs with a Sorcerer invisibly stalking the Corpse-Emperor's lapdogs, and Cypher and his Chosen Outflanking!

LRBT's are still effective vs meqs and multiple wound T4 targets, but perform poorly against units with a substantial cover save, T5 multiple wounds, or 2+ armor. The LRBT costs too much and is too vulnerable for its price and these gaps in its efficacy. It's not much cheaper than a Riptide that is an order of magnitude more durable, and can engage 2+ armor and untis with cover saves. Still weak vs MCs, but what isn't?

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
3 Wyverns are 195pts, not 110, and LRBT's are widely renowned as amongs the poorest options in the book. Eldar will do far worse things to power armor

You're right on the points cost.

And I politely disagree. I lost Huron and 13 CSMs to LRBTs in a single round last time.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
OK, fair enough then. Tho I would note that I only have 1 Wyvern. For now.

Then we'd have no problem!

My 100 Cultists charging across the battlefield, hulking Dreadnought behind them, supported by autocannon fire from the Havocs, CSMs with a Sorcerer invisibly stalking the Corpse-Emperor's lapdogs, and Cypher and his Chosen Outflanking!

1. Dun bunch up yer dudes like that.

2. I'm totally good with that army, and would typically field a couple Platoons supported by various tanks. It'd look awesome!

You'd hate the Death Korps then. For 165 pts they'll get 3 Thudd guns that will be about as nasty agaisnt your cultists and for the price of a Leman Russ they get 2 Earthshakers/twice the large blasts

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
3 Wyverns are 195pts, not 110, and LRBT's are widely renowned as amongs the poorest options in the book. Eldar will do far worse things to power armor

You're right on the points cost.

And I politely disagree. I lost Huron and 13 CSMs to LRBTs in a single round last time.

I didnt say they couldnt be dangerous, but you have to "feed" them optimal opportunities to get then to be so. Getting 14 models under a single template is...quite feat, particularly with no cover, and for the shot to land dead on and not fail to wound anybody (or...if it did, getting more than 14 dudes under a single pieplate is...I think impossible), is basically the "all stars align" dream scenario IG players often hope for, but rarely get. I dont think ive ever killed that many models with an LRBT, and havent been given a clear shot at a clumped up group of marines in the open that landed dead on since 5th editon

More often the IG player wont get more than 3-6 models under the pieplate, and with even just 5+ cover, theyre only getting a bit better than a 50% kill rate.

Mainly, avoid bunching your dudes up and an LRBT will never be particularly scary

Martel has the right of it about LRBT's. Also...they have to snapfire all other guns if they fire the main gun.

 Bobthehero wrote:
You'd hate the Death Korps then. For 165 pts they'll get 3 Thudd guns that will be about as nasty agaisnt your cultists and for the price of a Leman Russ they get 2 Earthshakers/twice the large blasts

You should write up the heaviest Artillery list possible. Make your enemies weep with your wallet.

Unfortunately, that title goes to the Renegade list, because their arty is even cheaper.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
You should write up the heaviest Artillery list possible. Make your enemies weep with your wallet.

GW already did that as a 1-click buy:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Exalted-Court-House-Terryn-Rules-Bundle

 Vaktathi wrote:
I didnt say they couldnt be dangerous, but you have to "feed" them optimal opportunities to get then to be so. Getting 14 models under a single template is...quite feat, particularly with no cover, and for the shot to land dead on and not fail to wound anybody (or...if it did, getting more than 14 dudes under a single pieplate is...I think impossible), is basically the "all stars align" dream scenario IG players often hope for, but rarely get. I dont think ive ever killed that many models with an LRBT, and havent been given a clear shot at a clumped up group of marines in the open that landed dead on since 5th editon

More often the IG player wont get more than 3-6 models under the pieplate, and with even just 5+ cover, theyre only getting a bit better than a 50% kill rate.

Mainly, avoid bunching your dudes up and an LRBT will never be particularly scary

Martel has the right of it about LRBT's. Also...they have to snapfire all other guns if they fire the main gun.

It was half a year ago, so my CSMs were on 25mm bases, but they weren't that badly bunched up - I think I came under fire from 2 or 3 LRBTs. Ages ago, so can't really remember.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


1. Dun bunch up yer dudes like that.

2. I'm totally good with that army, and would typically field a couple Platoons supported by various tanks. It'd look awesome!

It would! Nothing looks better than massive forces clashing without having all the infantry disappear after the 1st round!

 labmouse42 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
That sounds like a strong list that would be fun to play against.

Thanks. That is my goal.

I field a lot of models (88) in my 1850 list. One of the main reasons I do this is to give my opponent lots of models to kill. It's a lot of fun to have your models kill your opponents models. Unlike a scat bike / wraithhost build where it's really hard to remove the eldar models, you can kill my dire avengers, banshees, hawks, and spiders in droves.

The goal is to still be competitive (and it seems to be) yet still be fun for everyone.

My 1850 ITC list

Spoiler:

Pale Host Formation
Farseer
10 Dire Avengers w/Exarch
10 Dire Avengers w/Exarch
10 Dire Avengers w/Exarch

Wraithknight w/Glaive & Shield

Aspect Host
10 Warp Spiders w/Exarch
10 Warp Spiders w/Exarch
6 Dark Reapers w/Exarch

Aspect Host
10 Howling Banshees w/Exarch
10 Howling Banshees w/Exarch
10 Swooping Hawks w/Exarch

I'd still be careful with that list. It seems fine for tournaments, but depending on your opponent, they may or may not want (or be able to deal with) a Wraithknight and a bunch of Warp Spyders at 1850.

I don't know, those warp spider squads will have such a large footprint It'll be much easier to draw a bead on them... everything else fairly squishy so I'd argue it wouldn't be as damaging to throw in a single cc wraithknight in there.

 krodarklorr wrote:
I'd still be careful with that list. It seems fine for tournaments, but depending on your opponent, they may or may not want (or be able to deal with) a Wraithknight and a bunch of Warp Spyders at 1850.

When playing for more casual games I swap out the WK for another avenger squad and shining spears.

 Torus wrote:
I don't know, those warp spider squads will have such a large footprint It'll be much easier to draw a bead on them... everything else fairly squishy so I'd argue it wouldn't be as damaging to throw in a single cc wraithknight in there.

Yep. They throw out a ton of damage, but can be killed fairly easily with concentrated fire. The main use for the WK I've found is to slow down enemy deathstar units. If I can get 2-3 turns where their deathstar is not eating one or two of my units a turn, I can usually clear the rest of their army by then.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
I'd still be careful with that list. It seems fine for tournaments, but depending on your opponent, they may or may not want (or be able to deal with) a Wraithknight and a bunch of Warp Spyders at 1850.

When playing for more casual games I swap out the WK for another avenger squad and shining spears.

By all means though, if you're fighting a more competitive Necron/Tau/Marine list, the Wraithknight is fine. But I'm glad you do swap it out against more casual opponents.

I voted for Necrons, though I don't actually dislike them. The problem is that the level of firepower needed to melt Necron squads makes most any other army shrivel up and die in short order, so I feel like I kinda have to list-tailor more than I'm comfortable with if I don't also want to just steamroll any non-Necron opponent (other than Gladius/Lion's Blade MSU, which can be a tough nut to crack, because they can play the mission like a boss and can do target saturation really well).

That said, I've had surprising success against Necrons with my Sisters, which kinda probably shouldn't happen, so maybe I'm just generally an outlier. (Mostly still lost, because Sisters have some issues having enough objective holders while still having enough damage potential, but heavy flamers actually rack up kills when you have enough of them...)

But, I'd rather play against a fun player with an OP cheese-bomb army than a fair and balanced army in the hands of a complete gargleclown of a player. We've got one of those locally - when I get matched up against him in a league I just concede and hand him the win, because although I'll cream him nine ways to sunday every time, it'll be a stress-filled infuriation-fest, so frak that.

My young teams of guards are afraid of those thunder wolves.... Basically one hitting my tanks with thunder hammers. The crew from the russes made a hatch to escape from the havoc that those hammers can do.

jade_angel wrote:
I voted for Necrons, though I don't actually dislike them. The problem is that the level of firepower needed to melt Necron squads makes most any other army shrivel up and die in short order, so I feel like I kinda have to list-tailor more than I'm comfortable with if I don't also want to just steamroll any non-Necron opponent (other than Gladius/Lion's Blade MSU, which can be a tough nut to crack, because they can play the mission like a boss and can do target saturation really well).

That said, I've had surprising success against Necrons with my Sisters, which kinda probably shouldn't happen, so maybe I'm just generally an outlier. (Mostly still lost, because Sisters have some issues having enough objective holders while still having enough damage potential, but heavy flamers actually rack up kills when you have enough of them...)

But, I'd rather play against a fun player with an OP cheese-bomb army than a fair and balanced army in the hands of a complete gargleclown of a player. We've got one of those locally - when I get matched up against him in a league I just concede and hand him the win, because although I'll cream him nine ways to sunday every time, it'll be a stress-filled infuriation-fest, so frak that.

I was about to say, you better not hate playing against me! (Though you might for other reasons, as I'm sure you know). But yeah, you're sisters have put some hurt on my Crons, mainly because of those damn Heavy Flamers.

And I will warn you, either this weekend or the next, I'm going to be running the new models I have assembled. Prepare for Lychstars out the wazzoo!

Nah, I don't hate that - mild aggravation, but that's forgiveable. Looking forward to finding a way around the Lychstars, actually - I can deal with a few Lychguard but a bunch of them can soak up a ton of fire while being a force to be reckoned with in CC too.

jade_angel wrote:
Nah, I don't hate that - mild aggravation, but that's forgiveable. Looking forward to finding a way around the Lychstars, actually - I can deal with a few Lychguard but a bunch of them can soak up a ton of fire while being a force to be reckoned with in CC too.

Yeah, I got the rest of the named HQs I don't have (I'll let you guess which ones. ), and I now have 20 Lychguard. Should be fun.

jade_angel wrote:
But, I'd rather play against a fun player with an OP cheese-bomb army than a fair and balanced army in the hands of a complete gargleclown of a player. We've got one of those locally - when I get matched up against him in a league I just concede and hand him the win, because although I'll cream him nine ways to sunday every time, it'll be a stress-filled infuriation-fest, so frak that.

I'm stealing the term "gargleclown". Just thought I'd let you know.

 EnTyme wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
But, I'd rather play against a fun player with an OP cheese-bomb army than a fair and balanced army in the hands of a complete gargleclown of a player. We've got one of those locally - when I get matched up against him in a league I just concede and hand him the win, because although I'll cream him nine ways to sunday every time, it'll be a stress-filled infuriation-fest, so frak that.

I'm stealing the term "gargleclown". Just thought I'd let you know.

Yeah he does that. He has a whole slew of phrases. It's really quite amazing.

I've always wanted to try a "Boyz n Gurls club" against Necrons, with AP4 flamers backed up by AP4 Lootas. Could be fun.

 JimOnMars wrote:
I've always wanted to try a "Boyz n Gurls club" against Necrons, with AP4 flamers backed up by AP4 Lootas. Could be fun.

Until they bring nothing ghost Ghost Arks and 3+ armor save dudes.

But for real, clever name, I applaud you.

The Tau overwatch with the mass amounts of firewarriors and battle suits is really what kills you if you dont close quickly

 TheLionDA wrote:
The Tau overwatch with the mass amounts of firewarriors and battle suits is really what kills you if you dont close quickly

I don't see how that's what you're concerned about with Tau. Overwatch doesn't do that much damage, if at all, and they can only do it once.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 TheLionDA wrote:
The Tau overwatch with the mass amounts of firewarriors and battle suits is really what kills you if you dont close quickly

I don't see how that's what you're concerned about with Tau. Overwatch doesn't do that much damage, if at all, and they can only do it once.

You say that, but I've had entire units wiped from the board from overwatch and supporting fire

Maybe if it's a tightly gaggled-up gunline with lots of Pathfinders on hand to snapfire markerlights until they get lucky, then, say, let a squad of Crisis Suits open up with plasma at BS5... Otherwise, eh, most times I only manage to get 5-6 hits, 3-4 wounds, and against 'Crons, usually no kills, or maybe one. Heck, I've had Dark Eldar units soak three units of supporting fire and only lose two Wyches...

jade_angel wrote:
Maybe if it's a tightly gaggled-up gunline with lots of Pathfinders on hand to snapfire markerlights until they get lucky, then, say, let a squad of Crisis Suits open up with plasma at BS5... Otherwise, eh, most times I only manage to get 5-6 hits, 3-4 wounds, and against 'Crons, usually no kills, or maybe one. Heck, I've had Dark Eldar units soak three units of supporting fire and only lose two Wyches...

maybe I'm just an unlucky outlier then... I've had multiple units of full strength swooping hawks get murdered when they charge a vehicle, even a few warlocks in a seer council (with 2+ rerollable saves!) get rinced from over watch stunting their charge... I can't begin to describe just how much of a game changer that has been on multiple occasions, I guess I just don't know how to play against Tau

 Torus wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
Maybe if it's a tightly gaggled-up gunline with lots of Pathfinders on hand to snapfire markerlights until they get lucky, then, say, let a squad of Crisis Suits open up with plasma at BS5... Otherwise, eh, most times I only manage to get 5-6 hits, 3-4 wounds, and against 'Crons, usually no kills, or maybe one. Heck, I've had Dark Eldar units soak three units of supporting fire and only lose two Wyches...

maybe I'm just an unlucky outlier then... I've had multiple units of full strength swooping hawks get murdered when they charge a vehicle, even a few warlocks in a seer council (with 2+ rerollable saves!) get rinced from over watch stunting their charge... I can't begin to describe just how much of a game changer that has been on multiple occasions, I guess I just don't know how to play against Tau

That really just comes down to bad luck. Like, abysmally bad luck. Like the time I lost my 5th edition Necron CCB to a mixture of overwatch and then being punched to death by the Stealth Suits that he charged.

Tau. I hate being shot at by fish.

 Matthew wrote:
Tau. I hate being shot at by fish.

Oh, well I suppose that's one way of putting it.