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 niv-mizzet wrote:
You could, that's sort of a personal call. I would favor the scouts in that list with meltabomb sarge because it sort of balances out your role spread.

Flamer pod squad=roast dudes
Fragioso=Really roast dudes
2x DC and SG= high threat speedy melee that can engage most unit types
Scouts=Cheap moderate threat melee to weak units, melta threatens vehicles.

With scouts in the list, if you have first turn, you could overwhelm with infiltrate, 1 of the 2 pods, and a mass move-up plus run with the 3 elite jumper units.

If you go second, you could outflank, jump in with the jump units, and just suicide the first pod to try and snag first blood, before bringing in a heavy beta strike wave. (You will want to have gotten reroll reserves to make this not so risky.)

But like I said, it's not a clear "omg this is so much better" choice. I tend to favor more, smaller units, so usually I go with scouts over tacticals. A lot of competitive lists accidentally overkill them massively and waste a lot of their efficiency doing so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also as your BA collection grows, you'll probably grab more tacticals, pods, AND scouts, so really either route isn't a waste.

Makes a lot of sense. Thanks a ton for all the info and advice!

PM sent back to you Pilgrim. Hope the info is helpful.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Ok, so I went with these models for now:

- Sanguinary Priest
- Sanguinary Guard
- Death Company
- Tactical Squad
- Tactical Squad
- Drop Pod
- Drop Pod

In addition to the models I already own:

- Furioso Dreadnought
- Death Company

So, I'm going to be running 1 HQ, 2 Troops (one in a drop pod), 4 elites (Furioso in a drop pod, death company and sanguinary guard running jump packs, sanguinary priest jump packing with sanguinary guard).

I got some very, very good advice to run a jump pack equipped command squad instead of the sanguinary guard, but I can't afford that kit PLUS the vanguard veteran kit I'd need for some of the bits to make it work the way I want... Yet.

I think the sanguinary guard running with the priest is going to do pretty well.

Thank you to everyone who made suggestions; it's very difficult trying to put your first army together, so I appreciate the help greatly!

Now... I just need to find an extra jump pack for my priest somewhere...

 Pilgrim of the dark wrote:
Ok, so I went with these models for now:

- Sanguinary Priest
- Sanguinary Guard
- Death Company
- Tactical Squad
- Tactical Squad
- Drop Pod
- Drop Pod

In addition to the models I already own:

- Furioso Dreadnought
- Death Company

So, I'm going to be running 1 HQ, 2 Troops (one in a drop pod), 4 elites (Furioso in a drop pod, death company and sanguinary guard running jump packs, sanguinary priest jump packing with sanguinary guard).

I got some very, very good advice to run a jump pack equipped command squad instead of the sanguinary guard, but I can't afford that kit PLUS the vanguard veteran kit I'd need for some of the bits to make it work the way I want... Yet.

I think the sanguinary guard running with the priest is going to do pretty well.

Thank you to everyone who made suggestions; it's very difficult trying to put your first army together, so I appreciate the help greatly!

Now... I just need to find an extra jump pack for my priest somewhere...

You can still bitz order a pack of 5 basic Jump Packs iirc from the GW webstore. As long as you have a local GW store, you can just ship your order there and not have to worry about delivery fees. Could also grab up a couple sprues of the new BA upgrade frame too, as it comes with some really juicy looking shoulder pads/heads/torso/grail.

Eventually, you might want to consider breaking your 2 Tac Squad boxes down into 4x 5-man squads... Run a pair of them w/Heavy flamer + dual Hand flamer Sergeant in Pods, then 2x 5-man w/Meltagun + Combi-Meltagun Serg in Razorbacks.

With BA's in their current state, MSU is really the way to go, especially on your Troops choices.

Good looking start to your BA!

For your Sanguinary Guard, I would keep three of them armed with Encarmine Blades, one armed with an Encarmine Axe, and one armed with a Power Fist.

Might also consider the death mask upgrade for them as Fear can be a very helpful thing to have versus some opponents.

Your Sanguinary High Priest I would give a Jump Pack (Or, the Angel's Wing Relic jump pack) and also the Valor's Edge Relic power sword (AP:2 at initiative is very nice.) and do spring for the Bolt Pistol on the Priest as well. It's worth the extra point to give him an additional attack in melee. Just be careful of challenges, as your Priest doesn't have an invulnerable save, with a 3+ armor save, and is only T:4 with 2 wounds so if he gets hit hard he may drop. Be mindful of that. Other upgrades to consider are Digital Weapons (allowing one re-roll of a single failed to-wound roll) or, if you don't go with the Relic jump pack, the Veritas Vitae relic for an extra warlord trait from the strategic table. Very handy piece of wargear most games.

Just my suggestions on that end. Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

Well, I'd consider a Cmd squad with 4 special weapons of the same type led by a Librarian, all with jump packs. Its a decent unit.

Can't do 4x special weapon veterans in a BA command squad sadly. One member is a Sanguinary Novitiate and one member is a Company Champ and both have locked wargear sadly, except for the option to add Jump Packs to them when you buy the squad jump packs..

That said you can trow three meltaguns on the remaining three veterans and you're good to go if you want to keep the squad somewhat on the cheaper side. I prefer running storm shields on my command squad and running one hidden power fist in there as well personally.

Just clarifying that. Take it easy for now,

-Red__Thirst-

Thanks for clarifying. I haven't looked into the actual codex. I played BA death of angels very often in the fifth edition. It was a fun army to play despite the fact that MSU Razorback spam was a little bit stronger.

I'm going to go with MSU Descent of Angels myself as I continue to (re)build my army.

Current plan is to have the following:

One Storm Raven
Command Squad/Honor Guard w/ a Captain and/or Librarian Attached
Dante (Lord of War)
4x Tactical squads (or, 2x Tactical Squads in 2x Drop Pods that combat Squad once they hit the table)
Death Company + Lemartes
Furioso in a Drop Pod
2x 5 man Assault Squads (possibly in pods, likely with Jump Packs)
A Skyshield Landing Pad (Fortification)
Possibly some Land Speeders as well for harassing and general trouble making/deep striking fun.

Should be a lot of fun to play and build. Not the most competitive thing out there but I'm looking forward to it all the same.

Hopefully Pilgrim has as much fun building out his Blood Angels as well. Speaking of that, Pilgrim, have you decided on what Company you're going to build? Just curious.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Pilgrim of the dark wrote:

Now... I just need to find an extra jump pack for my priest somewhere...

I just now finished up my kitbashed Sanguinary Priest w/ Angel's Wing, and for the relic jump pack, I stole the cool one from the new Blood Angel's Chaplain (with jump pack). It's not a cheap way to go about it, and I can always just put a normal jump pack (or a sanguinary guard jump pack) on the chaplain, but hey...it's not like I'm going to be running the chaplain all that often, so...

If I ever get around to it...maybe I'll post a pic.

I have been using 2 tac flamer pod squads quite effectively to wipe out enemy troops. It may not be the best choice in a cutthroat competitive meta (but in that case you should not play BA in the first place ), but they do just fine in normal games. They have yet to dissapoint me.
The other use for tacticals is to give them stuff like grav weapons and use them as fire support and to camp on objectives. I usually find Scouts to be more cost-effective for that last one though.

I have found the Sangunary Guard must have a Priest with the relic JP. The dreaded IA pieplate of doom does nothing in intercept (because it can't snap shot a blast) allowing you to run and spread out. I also feel the SG do best in large groups with a banner because of how good that banner is. 375 pts gets you 10 dudes with 2 fists and a banner and that means they always have 3 attacks, even when they multi-assault. Dante is also a solid choice if you end up liking how the SG play as it gives them someone with an invul save to take the big hits that would ignore their FNP (from the priest).

Heavy flamer tac squads in pods as troops are amusing. Furioso dreads are amazing with the frag cannon. I would use the meltagun instead of the heavy flamer because of the anti-synergy between two differently named template weapons and the fact that the melta shot lets the furioso threaten more targets effectively.

I personally have not used DC with JP because I prefer to take them in a Spartan Assault Tank (from FW). It's usually pretty bad though because grav exists in the game (although Tau cry when they see that tank and aren't rocking a stormsurge or haywire). A little trick to get the most out of your DC is to equip the chainsword dudes with bolt pistols for the extra attack in melee, but equip the power fist guys with bolters. Because DC are relentless, you can rapid fire the bolter and still charge.

The Baal Strike Force detachment is pretty interesting when you don't need to multi-assault, as the +1 init means a lot when fighting other MEQ armies (5th ed FC, how I miss you). You may want to forgo the BSF for a Combined Arms Detachment, as Objective Secured is usually a better thing to have.

You may be tempted to use the fast vehicles the BA has to offer (preds/vindis), but don't. Because of how easy it is to kill them, you may get one shot before they die, and they will most likely never make their points back or even cause meaningful damage before dying. The stormraven is not that great but it's an okay choice. Always buy the extra armor for it though so it's not so easy for your opponents to make it crash.

Best of luck with your new Blood Angels

 Red__Thirst wrote:
I'm going to go with MSU Descent of Angels myself as I continue to (re)build my army.

Current plan is to have the following:

One Storm Raven
Command Squad/Honor Guard w/ a Captain and/or Librarian Attached
Dante (Lord of War)
4x Tactical squads (or, 2x Tactical Squads in 2x Drop Pods that combat Squad once they hit the table)
Death Company + Lemartes
Furioso in a Drop Pod
2x 5 man Assault Squads (possibly in pods, likely with Jump Packs)
A Skyshield Landing Pad (Fortification)
Possibly some Land Speeders as well for harassing and general trouble making/deep striking fun.

Should be a lot of fun to play and build. Not the most competitive thing out there but I'm looking forward to it all the same.

Hopefully Pilgrim has as much fun building out his Blood Angels as well. Speaking of that, Pilgrim, have you decided on what Company you're going to build? Just curious.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I really haven't thought of which company to go with. All the examples I see are yellow drop (2nd company). I might go 5th company as it would give me another use for my Abaddon Black paint!

We'll see.

I run 5th Battle Company myself. Good choice!

5th Company, best company. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Well, I have a full Assault Marine BA company. It was fun to play in the 5th ed when BA got a new codex. But these days, I'd consider only a DC with jump packs and some AM for support.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I have a full Assault Marine BA company. It was fun to play in the 5th ed when BA got a new codex. But these days, I'd consider only a DC with jump packs and some AM for support.

I still don't understand why they switched assault marines from troops to elites...

I mean, I guess it sort of makes sense after reading the codex section about how the BA tries to stay in line with the Codex Astartes as a form of discipline and guidance, especially in the early days when leadership had high turnover.

BUT, I feel that it's made Assault Marines redundant when you already have jump DC fulfilling the same role (arguably better). I can't remember points off the top of my head, but if AM are cheaper than DC by a large amount, I guess you could take more AM if you were looking at quantity over quality.

Again, I'm new to all of this, so I may be wrong, but that's the impression I get.

There was no reason to switch them out of troops. It's not like ASM are even remotely OP.

 Pilgrim of the dark wrote:
New player here. Decided to run Blood Angels against all advice and have already purchased a couple models (furioso dread and death company). I'm going to be buying more models soon to get a battle forged Baal strike force army together to start playing.

As you know, BA have only 2 troop choices to choose from to fill the mandatory 2 troops slots...

My question is what are the advantages and disadvantages of tactical marines vs scouts? What would you choose to fill the 2 troops slots and why?

Thanks in advance!

As a long time BA player myself, I just want you to know you are in for a slog. Now, if you just play with your friends and have a laugh at the tanks blowing up and stuff like that it really doesn't matter what you bring to the table and you will really enjoy the BA. That being said, avoid going to any kind of competitive event if you can't stomach getting roflstomped. To answer your original question, Scouts are cheaper but have almost no offensive output so if your plan is to have lots of cheap units that just kind of hide and sit on objectives they are the way to go. Fully kitted out Tactical Squads in fast Rhinos is a lot better, IMHO. Give them a combi-Melta, Melta Gun, and Heavy Flamer and call it a day. Maybe take three of them with teleport homers and 3 squads of Assault Terminators? Blood Angels kind of have to play the game like a regular Space Marine list from 5th edition.

I'm running three units of melee scouts in my Archangel Sanguine Wing list.

 Kimchi Gamer wrote:

 Pilgrim of the dark wrote:
New player here. Decided to run Blood Angels against all advice and have already purchased a couple models (furioso dread and death company). I'm going to be buying more models soon to get a battle forged Baal strike force army together to start playing.

As you know, BA have only 2 troop choices to choose from to fill the mandatory 2 troops slots...

My question is what are the advantages and disadvantages of tactical marines vs scouts? What would you choose to fill the 2 troops slots and why?

Thanks in advance!

As a long time BA player myself, I just want you to know you are in for a slog. Now, if you just play with your friends and have a laugh at the tanks blowing up and stuff like that it really doesn't matter what you bring to the table and you will really enjoy the BA. That being said, avoid going to any kind of competitive event if you can't stomach getting roflstomped. To answer your original question, Scouts are cheaper but have almost no offensive output so if your plan is to have lots of cheap units that just kind of hide and sit on objectives they are the way to go. Fully kitted out Tactical Squads in fast Rhinos is a lot better, IMHO. Give them a combi-Melta, Melta Gun, and Heavy Flamer and call it a day. Maybe take three of them with teleport homers and 3 squads of Assault Terminators? Blood Angels kind of have to play the game like a regular Space Marine list from 5th edition.

Yeah, I get that. Like I said in the beginning, I chose Blood Angels against all advice, lol! I know they were neutered pretty badly when 6th edition dropped. However, they're the chapter that appeals to me the most; I love reading about Sanguinius, and the post-heresy BA stuff. I like the BA models, colors, and tactics as well.

I'm really not interested in competitive play per se, but want a somewhat competitive army within the scope of what can be done with BA. My main goal is to play the army I most identify with and enjoy... I'm not a fair-weather fan (I'm a lifelong Bears and Cubs fan if that illustrates my point).

If you play maelstrom, it helps BA somewhat because of their speed. At least in my experience. And sometimes the enemy will be tempted to move towards you to score points.

In my recent games, I just took two full Tacticals (flamer, heavy flamer) in Rhinos and added DC, Predators, and Dreads.
Nothing fancy, but playable. Fast tanks are a bonus I really like.

 wuestenfux wrote:
In my recent games, I just took two full Tacticals (flamer, heavy flamer) in Rhinos and added DC, Predators, and Dreads.
Nothing fancy, but playable. Fast tanks are a bonus I really like.

My next models are going to be rhinos and some sort of hard hitting tank. I'll eventually add another drop pod, a storm Raven, and an assault terminator squad, and bring in another dread and Dante. Possibly some CCW scouts, but we'll see.

Red_Thirst is supplying me with some great lists, and brought up a good point: flamer vs melta on the furioso I'm running. I'm thinking of keeping the heavy flamer under the power fist just to keep him uber-killy against infantry, but maybe going heavy flamer, melta, combi-melta in my tactical squads... Or heavy flamer, flamer, and Combi-melta.

Not sure yet and I'm still new to this, so I'm not sure where a bit of anti-armor will best be utilized without sacrificing the wall O' death I'm going for.

It makes sense to give the Dreads heavy flamers under the pf since then he can also deal with (swarm) infantry emerging by infiltrate or outflank.

 wuestenfux wrote:
It makes sense to give the Dreads heavy flamers under the pf since then he can also deal with (swarm) infantry emerging by infiltrate or outflank.

This is what I'm thinking, since the frag cannon is Assault 2, I'd get 2 hits per model under the template (or do I get to use 1 template, then another positioned differently?), then I'd have another template for the heavy flamer, then the power fist. I want to keep my dreads wading into infantry decimating entire, or most of, units.

This still leaves me the problem of anti-armor. If I'm going to be combat squad-ing my tacticals (basically running 4 5-man squads after they deploy), would it make sense to do a heavy flamer and flamer, then have the sergeant running a combi-melta, or running a heavy flamer, melta, and a combi-melta on the sarge?

Depends on what you want to do with your Tacticals.
I run my Tacticals in Rhinos, and with the Rhinos the Tacticals are rather flexible. With the Rhinos I can block LoS, provide cover or block charge lanes.
I guess you want to take Pods. If you let them arrive close to the enemy front ranks, the Tacticals are rather vulnerable.
If you play maelstrom missions, you need units that are able to occupy mission objectives especially in (or close to) your deployment zone. Here Pods are not a must have.

 Pilgrim of the dark wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
It makes sense to give the Dreads heavy flamers under the pf since then he can also deal with (swarm) infantry emerging by infiltrate or outflank.

This is what I'm thinking, since the frag cannon is Assault 2, I'd get 2 hits per model under the template (or do I get to use 1 template, then another positioned differently?), then I'd have another template for the heavy flamer, then the power fist. I want to keep my dreads wading into infantry decimating entire, or most of, units.

This still leaves me the problem of anti-armor. If I'm going to be combat squad-ing my tacticals (basically running 4 5-man squads after they deploy), would it make sense to do a heavy flamer and flamer, then have the sergeant running a combi-melta, or running a heavy flamer, melta, and a combi-melta on the sarge?

The biggest issue with Heavy Flamer/Frag Cannon is that you have to choose a weapon and resolve that weapon first. Lets say you can get 5 models under the template for the Frag Cannon and you end up killing 4. Now the Heavy Flamer goes to shoot and only gets 1. Multiple template weapons with different names means less hits overall as you kill stuff. The melta-gun instead of heavy flamer lets you threaten vehicles as well as hordes.

 Mulletdude wrote:

 Pilgrim of the dark wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
It makes sense to give the Dreads heavy flamers under the pf since then he can also deal with (swarm) infantry emerging by infiltrate or outflank.

This is what I'm thinking, since the frag cannon is Assault 2, I'd get 2 hits per model under the template (or do I get to use 1 template, then another positioned differently?), then I'd have another template for the heavy flamer, then the power fist. I want to keep my dreads wading into infantry decimating entire, or most of, units.

This still leaves me the problem of anti-armor. If I'm going to be combat squad-ing my tacticals (basically running 4 5-man squads after they deploy), would it make sense to do a heavy flamer and flamer, then have the sergeant running a combi-melta, or running a heavy flamer, melta, and a combi-melta on the sarge?

The biggest issue with Heavy Flamer/Frag Cannon is that you have to choose a weapon and resolve that weapon first. Lets say you can get 5 models under the template for the Frag Cannon and you end up killing 4. Now the Heavy Flamer goes to shoot and only gets 1. Multiple template weapons with different names means less hits overall as you kill stuff. The melta-gun instead of heavy flamer lets you threaten vehicles as well as hordes.

If you're shooting a squad of just 5 guys with a Fragioso, you're doing something very wrong.

Outside of course of playing against an extreme MSU spam, any unit that's carrying multiple templates should always be aiming for nice, juicy units of 10+ guys.
The bonus with the Fragioso however, is that small elite units such as Termies which normally ignore most templates, can instead be taken down by the fact the Frag cannon's shots are, IIRC, also Rending.

By giving the Fragioso a meltagun, you simply make it much easier to neutralise with any 'Weapon Destroyed' results, since knocking out the cannon means it's down to an all but ignorable single shot Meltagun. (and anything it really wants to threaten is easily capable of outpacing the Dreadnought)

 Mulletdude wrote:

 Pilgrim of the dark wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
It makes sense to give the Dreads heavy flamers under the pf since then he can also deal with (swarm) infantry emerging by infiltrate or outflank.

This is what I'm thinking, since the frag cannon is Assault 2, I'd get 2 hits per model under the template (or do I get to use 1 template, then another positioned differently?), then I'd have another template for the heavy flamer, then the power fist. I want to keep my dreads wading into infantry decimating entire, or most of, units.

This still leaves me the problem of anti-armor. If I'm going to be combat squad-ing my tacticals (basically running 4 5-man squads after they deploy), would it make sense to do a heavy flamer and flamer, then have the sergeant running a combi-melta, or running a heavy flamer, melta, and a combi-melta on the sarge?

The biggest issue with Heavy Flamer/Frag Cannon is that you have to choose a weapon and resolve that weapon first. Lets say you can get 5 models under the template for the Frag Cannon and you end up killing 4. Now the Heavy Flamer goes to shoot and only gets 1. Multiple template weapons with different names means less hits overall as you kill stuff. The melta-gun instead of heavy flamer lets you threaten vehicles as well as hordes.

Template weapons are all resolved together. Because 7th ed makes no sense.

Martel732 wrote:

 Mulletdude wrote:

 Pilgrim of the dark wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
It makes sense to give the Dreads heavy flamers under the pf since then he can also deal with (swarm) infantry emerging by infiltrate or outflank.

This is what I'm thinking, since the frag cannon is Assault 2, I'd get 2 hits per model under the template (or do I get to use 1 template, then another positioned differently?), then I'd have another template for the heavy flamer, then the power fist. I want to keep my dreads wading into infantry decimating entire, or most of, units.

This still leaves me the problem of anti-armor. If I'm going to be combat squad-ing my tacticals (basically running 4 5-man squads after they deploy), would it make sense to do a heavy flamer and flamer, then have the sergeant running a combi-melta, or running a heavy flamer, melta, and a combi-melta on the sarge?

The biggest issue with Heavy Flamer/Frag Cannon is that you have to choose a weapon and resolve that weapon first. Lets say you can get 5 models under the template for the Frag Cannon and you end up killing 4. Now the Heavy Flamer goes to shoot and only gets 1. Multiple template weapons with different names means less hits overall as you kill stuff. The melta-gun instead of heavy flamer lets you threaten vehicles as well as hordes.

Template weapons are all resolved together. Because 7th ed makes no sense.

No, they're not. Read how to resolve multiple weapons. Select a weapon, roll to hit, roll to wound, take saves, select another weapon, roll to hit, roll to wound, take saves. The frag cannon will reduce the number of models that can be hit by the heavy flamer, or the heavy flamer is going to reduce the number of hits for the frag cannon. Unless you can show me a rules quote that says different template weapons are resolved simultaneously, that's how it works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:
If you're shooting a squad of just 5 guys with a Fragioso, you're doing something very wrong.

Outside of course of playing against an extreme MSU spam, any unit that's carrying multiple templates should always be aiming for nice, juicy units of 10+ guys.
The bonus with the Fragioso however, is that small elite units such as Termies which normally ignore most templates, can instead be taken down by the fact the Frag cannon's shots are, IIRC, also Rending.

By giving the Fragioso a meltagun, you simply make it much easier to neutralise with any 'Weapon Destroyed' results, since knocking out the cannon means it's down to an all but ignorable single shot Meltagun. (and anything it really wants to threaten is easily capable of outpacing the Dreadnought)

My dreadnoughts are always neutralized by death or grav, so a weapon destroyed result doesn't matter much. Plus, if they ignore the dread with a ccw and melta, he can still run amok and tie something up in combat. AV13 means immunity to krak grenades.