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Hey guys,

A few weeks ago, I was playing against one of my mates in a 2,000 point Black Templars (me) vs Dark Angels (them) game and I came across an issue I'd never faced before:

As part of my army, I ran a squad of three regular Dreadnoughts and he had scored two glancing hits and a penetrating shot onto the squad. Now, when playing with other friends, we'd count that as one dreadnought dying and then resolving the penetrating shot. In this game, however, they insisted that we resolve the penetrating shot first to which I agreed (after which, the first Dreadnought promptly exploded), after which the two remaining wounds were allocated onto the two remaining Dreadnoughts.

This leads me to my question:

Is there a rule in regards to the order in which you apply Glancing and Penetrating Hits?

Meaning was my Dark Angels friend right in saying that Penetrating Hits are resolved first and then Glancing Hits are distributed?

Or are Glancing Hits allocated first? Or is there no order?


Cheers Guys

None of the above. Page 79 is pretty clear on this. After counting up hits, Armor Penetration is rolled against each model individually and they're resolved in order. Yes this is a pain in the ass but unambiguous.

Indeed, abundantly clear under 'Shooting at Squadrons' in the Vehicle Squadrons rules:

"When a squadron of vehicles is shot at, roll To Hit as normal. Once you have determined the number of hits, these hits must be resolved, one at a time, against the model in the squadron closest to the firing unit..."

The rule on page 79, to put it simply, only states that the wounds are allocated to the nearest unit in the squadron first. It doesn't mention whether Penetrating Hits are resolved first or Glancing Hits are resolved first.

For example:

I roll 2 Hits on the Dreadnought Squadron, one of which penetrates. If penetrating hits are resolved first, then I could get an 'Explodes!' result and then the glancing hit is then applied to the next Dreadnought. But if Glancing Hits are resolved first, then the first Dreadnought suffers the two wounds as well as whatever the result of the Penetrating Hit is.

Check the general sequencing rule on page17 - if two things need to be resolved at the same time and it's unclear which needs to be resolved first, the player who's turn it is gets to choose the order.

Or for a different take, but gives you the same result, check the rules about Wound Pools in the shooting phase on page 34/35. It's not quite the same thing since you're dealing with Glancing/Penetrating hits, rather than Wounds, but the gist of it is the same - you will have one pool of Penetrating Hits and other of Glancing Hits and the player making the attacks decides which order they are allocated.

Edit: however you are talking about squadrons, which is different. If you generate two hits on a Dreadnought squadron you need to fully resolve each hit, one at a time. You should never end up in a scenario where you have a 1 penetrating and 1 glancing hit on a squadron and are trying to figure out which is resolved first. You roll your Armour Pen roll for the first hit - lets say it's a Penetrating Hit - and you resolve the effects of that Penetrating Hit fully (which may Explode the closest Dreadnought). Then you roll the armour pen for the 2nd hit - lets say that's a glance - and you resolve the effects of that Glance (which would be to strip a HP off the next closest Dreadnought since the first one exploded).

You allocate hits one at a time. Each hit can only be a glance or a pen (or nothing), so there is no choosing which happens first.

In your example you did it wrong by rolling all your armour pen rolls together.

ryuken87 wrote:
You allocate hits one at a time. Each hit can only be a glance or a pen (or nothing), so there is no choosing which happens first.

In your example you did it wrong by rolling all your armour pen rolls together.

What basis in the rules is there to say that GooBandito's suggestion (which is itself based in rules found in the rule book) is wrong and this method you've proposed is right?

in squadron rules I believe it notes to allocate hits instead of wounds.

 IllumiNini wrote:

ryuken87 wrote:
You allocate hits one at a time. Each hit can only be a glance or a pen (or nothing), so there is no choosing which happens first.

In your example you did it wrong by rolling all your armour pen rolls together.

What basis in the rules is there to say that GooBandito's suggestion (which is itself based in rules found in the rule book) is wrong and this method you've proposed is right?

Errr we said the same thing.

As Mr. Shine quoted from the rule book...

"When a squadron of vehicles is shot at, roll To Hit as normal. Once you have determined the number of hits, these hits must be resolved, one at a time, against the model in the squadron closest to the firing unit..."

So, roll TO HIT as normal. Rolling to hit does NOT include making an armour penetration roll. Once you've determined the number of hits, only then do you roll for armour penetration. You fully resolve each hit before moving on to the next. This means you roll for pen and apply the result fully before rolling for pen for the next hit.

The rules are pretty unambiguous. You just need to understand that rolling to hit doesn't include the rolling to pen step.

 Kriswall wrote:
As Mr. Shine quoted from the rule book...

"When a squadron of vehicles is shot at, roll To Hit as normal. Once you have determined the number of hits, these hits must be resolved, one at a time, against the model in the squadron closest to the firing unit..."

So, roll TO HIT as normal. Rolling to hit does NOT include making an armour penetration roll. Once you've determined the number of hits, only then do you roll for armour penetration. You fully resolve each hit before moving on to the next. This means you roll for pen and apply the result fully before rolling for pen for the next hit.

The rules are pretty unambiguous. You just need to understand that rolling to hit doesn't include the rolling to pen step.

This is correct for Squadrons, which is the OP's case. Each Penetrating Hit carries a possibility of a Wreck Result, which would have subsequent Hits allocated to other Squadron members or lost if you run out of models.

Lone Vehicles operate differently, and you always roll Vehicle Damage Results due to the possibility of Explodes results which can affect more than the model in question.

Charistoph wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
As Mr. Shine quoted from the rule book...

"When a squadron of vehicles is shot at, roll To Hit as normal. Once you have determined the number of hits, these hits must be resolved, one at a time, against the model in the squadron closest to the firing unit..."

So, roll TO HIT as normal. Rolling to hit does NOT include making an armour penetration roll. Once you've determined the number of hits, only then do you roll for armour penetration. You fully resolve each hit before moving on to the next. This means you roll for pen and apply the result fully before rolling for pen for the next hit.

The rules are pretty unambiguous. You just need to understand that rolling to hit doesn't include the rolling to pen step.

This is correct for Squadrons, which is the OP's case. Each Penetrating Hit carries a possibility of a Wreck Result, which would have subsequent Hits allocated to other Squadron members or lost if you run out of models.

Lone Vehicles operate differently, and you always roll Vehicle Damage Results due to the possibility of Explodes results which can affect more than the model in question.

I'm not necessarily challenging this, but can you provide a rules backup for that? I thought you stopped resolving hits once the vehicle in question was "dead" via either wrecking or exploding. I don't have my rule book handy as I'm at work.

So in the case of the squadron doing one hit at a time. Say the first dreadnought is wrecked then another hit is allocated to the next dread. Does it get cover from the first dread that was just wrecked ?

 BuZzZzJaY wrote:
So in the case of the squadron doing one hit at a time. Say the first dreadnought is wrecked then another hit is allocated to the next dread. Does it get cover from the first dread that was just wrecked ?

If that wrecked Dread provides cover, yes. It is now wrecked and no longer a member of the unit.

 Kriswall wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Lone Vehicles operate differently, and you always roll Vehicle Damage Results due to the possibility of Explodes results which can affect more than the model in question.

I'm not necessarily challenging this, but can you provide a rules backup for that? I thought you stopped resolving hits once the vehicle in question was "dead" via either wrecking or exploding. I don't have my rule book handy as I'm at work.

After defining Glancing and Penetrating Hits:

After deducting any Hull Points, roll a D6 for each shot that penetrated the vehicle’s armour and look up the result using the Vehicle Damage table, applying any appropriate modifiers, such as those granted for high AP weapons. All modifiers on the Vehicle Damage table are cumulative. If you inflict a penetrating hit, you must roll on the Vehicle Damage table even if the vehicle loses sufficient Hull Points to be Wrecked, as there is still a chance that it might Explode!

emphasis mine.

Now, if the Vehicle has nothing around it to be affected by the Explodes result or not have a Tactical Objective requiring a specific result, you and your opponent could wave off the need to go through it, but that's more to save time.

One other small point is range. If a unit fires at a squadron and only one vehicle is in range any hit after the first vehicle is distro yes could be lost. Additionally, if some models in the firing unit are at different ranges this too might cause hits to be lost. So really, each shot needs to be resolved individually anyway.

Charistoph wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Lone Vehicles operate differently, and you always roll Vehicle Damage Results due to the possibility of Explodes results which can affect more than the model in question.

I'm not necessarily challenging this, but can you provide a rules backup for that? I thought you stopped resolving hits once the vehicle in question was "dead" via either wrecking or exploding. I don't have my rule book handy as I'm at work.

After defining Glancing and Penetrating Hits:

After deducting any Hull Points, roll a D6 for each shot that penetrated the vehicle’s armour and look up the result using the Vehicle Damage table, applying any appropriate modifiers, such as those granted for high AP weapons. All modifiers on the Vehicle Damage table are cumulative. If you inflict a penetrating hit, you must roll on the Vehicle Damage table even if the vehicle loses sufficient Hull Points to be Wrecked, as there is still a chance that it might Explode!

emphasis mine.

Now, if the Vehicle has nothing around it to be affected by the Explodes result or not have a Tactical Objective requiring a specific result, you and your opponent could wave off the need to go through it, but that's more to save time.

There is also the note in the Explodes! result that tells you to only resolve the explosion once, regardless of how many times it was rolled for, suggesting that simultaneous rolling on the damage table is how you resolve non-squadron vehicles.

 Quanar wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Lone Vehicles operate differently, and you always roll Vehicle Damage Results due to the possibility of Explodes results which can affect more than the model in question.

I'm not necessarily challenging this, but can you provide a rules backup for that? I thought you stopped resolving hits once the vehicle in question was "dead" via either wrecking or exploding. I don't have my rule book handy as I'm at work.

After defining Glancing and Penetrating Hits:

After deducting any Hull Points, roll a D6 for each shot that penetrated the vehicle’s armour and look up the result using the Vehicle Damage table, applying any appropriate modifiers, such as those granted for high AP weapons. All modifiers on the Vehicle Damage table are cumulative. If you inflict a penetrating hit, you must roll on the Vehicle Damage table even if the vehicle loses sufficient Hull Points to be Wrecked, as there is still a chance that it might Explode!

emphasis mine.

Now, if the Vehicle has nothing around it to be affected by the Explodes result or not have a Tactical Objective requiring a specific result, you and your opponent could wave off the need to go through it, but that's more to save time.

There is also the note in the Explodes! result that tells you to only resolve the explosion once, regardless of how many times it was rolled for, suggesting that simultaneous rolling on the damage table is how you resolve non-squadron vehicles.

I would argue that this is a redundant, but clarifying sentence. You stop rolling when you get an explodes result since the vehicle is no longer there. Obviously you can't have more than one explodes result. However, many, many people roll dice simultaneously when they really shouldn't, so it's reasonable to say something like "hey, remember that your vehicle can never explode more than once". This wouldn't be the first time GW has used unnecessary wording in their rules.