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The issue is you massively oversell it in the first post by claiming it will kill 3 'repeatedly'. It's free but not good. Saying otherwise doesn't change that.

Oh it can kill 3 repeatedly. So im not wrong. and we are talking about horde types here so You can SAY Im overselling it, yet I'm right. It can. It does. FACT.

Several units will be experiencing the fun of fire effects.

And its free. Its FREE man! So what is your beef? It seems pointless to be going there on this minuscule issue.

Good lord. this is the kind of crap we argue about. It's just... dumb. Really is.

I'm not wrong if I say that an army of Dark Eldar can go through an entire tournament without losing a single model. That doesn't mean saying it will happen means I'm giving good advice.

Constantly overstating, overselling and insisting bad things are really good gets.....tiring. That's my issue at least. I'm sure other people have different opinions.

pm713 wrote:
I'm not wrong if I say that an army of Dark Eldar can go through an entire tournament without losing a single model. That doesn't mean saying it will happen means I'm giving good advice.

Constantly overstating, overselling and insisting bad things are really good gets.....tiring. That's my issue at least. I'm sure other people have different opinions.

Math > Opinions that are grossly misinformed
He does this junk a lot. He says something wrong and then promotes his terrible blog.

Quite frankly, if you just want to use them for the Sorcerers, why not just use them AS Sorcerers? It'll run smoother that way and you'll generate more Warp Charges that way, ergo getting off more powers at a more successful rate.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


Except when it kills three. Repeatedly. And it is going off on multiple units.

if you set five units on fire which you can easily do, that could be an extra 10 hits a turn! who knows. But you really should consider that. The totality of the effect is quite good and most of the Tzeentch force can do ti for free basically.

In order for your Soul Blaze to kill three boyz, it first has to not fizzle (50% chance), then roll 3 hits, then all 3 hits wound, then no wounds are saved.

Given that the odds for his happening is less than 7%, I don't think you should count on an outcome that you will only see every 14th time you successfully inflict Soul Blaze to begin with - yes, it may be more, but it may also equally be less.

I get all that. And yet... free wounds. they are hits, so you are essentially getting free "Splitfire" shots every round it burns, the flames can begin anew every round you fire and they wounds mount up over time. Not having to hit with those is actually significant. It's all bonus damage.

I don't really know what to tell you. It comes free so you can argue it into the ground but if you're playing Tzeentch, as far as I'm concerned there's no downside to the feature. Not like you can pay less and NOT get it. Lol. So why are you even going on about it really?

Its not free. You spend 15 pts for it. Why would i spend 15 points for a terrible rule?

The problem with thousand sons list is generally thousand sons.

Most of the god specific marines have very niche roles they fill without really being able to diversify outside of those roles. Noise Marines and Deathguard are a slight exception as you can kit out okay assault or okay shooting squads from them.

Khorne is just assault, and thousand sons are just anti meq midrange shots.

I would take 2 min sized thousand sons squads with sorcerer, and rhino with no upgrades for the rhino and call it a day on thousands son squads.

I would highly consider the new daemon soulgrinder formation, its 3 soulgrinders who basically buff each other if one of them kills anything. Soulgrinders of Tz are pretty cool.

Other interesting things would be a large helcult unit. The dread which is a character with lots of cultists. The unit is fearless if the dread is alive, you can pick up cultist characters to eat bad challenges for the dread, and the dread can challenge things and smash them. Also buffs on this unit like shrouding/invis/etc can go a long way to making a large tarpit unit that can hold objectives.

Allied daemon detachment for some pink horrors/flamers/heralds/LoC or whatever. I say ally as in different faction, not necessarily the allied detachment.

The new warpflame detachmant is pretty nice.
1 Herald
2 squads of Horrors
3 units of min sized flamers
4 units of individual exalted flamers

Is not terribly expensive and the formation benefit is all the daemons within 12" of the herald can use its locus in addition to their own, and all warpflame attacks are at +1 str for units in the formation.

Are the soulblaze wounds free? Don't you need to pay like 10-15 pt for a banner?

If you wanna make use of the models, but without crap rules, a good alternative is to take the Sorcerors and run them as a Loyalist marine Librarius Conclave.

As for the Rubric Marines, run them as Legion of the Damned. The Legion has Slow and Purposeful and a 3++, which is a good representation of the Thousand Son's supernatural toughness and slow reflexes, and the Ignores Cover ability represents Infernobolts better than the AP3 imo. For added fluff, start the game with just the Librarius Conclave; make it look like you're "summoning" in the rubric marines with their deepstrike mechanic.

EDIT: Took out a blurp about storm shields. Forgot that only Terminator Librarians can take em.

Going back to the double CAD idea, you're just going to have to fill the second CAD's troops with cultists (which is fluffy enough, I suppose) and move all the thousand sons to the primary CAD.

I think maximising HQ slot sorcerors is the way to go if you want lots of sorcerors. It's just a little more flexible (imo of course).

pm713 wrote:
I'm not wrong if I say that an army of Dark Eldar can go through an entire tournament without losing a single model. That doesn't mean saying it will happen means I'm giving good advice.

Constantly overstating, overselling and insisting bad things are really good gets.....tiring. That's my issue at least. I'm sure other people have different opinions.

Sure. You could use an extreme example in an ironic effort to point out my non-existent hyperbole regarding the number of potential wounds. Sure. Do you feel that helped you solidify your point? We WERE talking about a D3 and whether it comes up a 3 often,. in fact it comes up AS often as the other results!

I'm not overselling. I said the word "CAN". Someone changes that to "WILL" i ntheir mind. This is moving goal posts. This is pretending I said one thing to get angry instead of actually carefully reading me. I put the usual proviso of "Can" on it. I don't think anyone reading needs that word explained to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


Except when it kills three. Repeatedly. And it is going off on multiple units.

if you set five units on fire which you can easily do, that could be an extra 10 hits a turn! who knows. But you really should consider that. The totality of the effect is quite good and most of the Tzeentch force can do ti for free basically.

In order for your Soul Blaze to kill three boyz, it first has to not fizzle (50% chance), then roll 3 hits, then all 3 hits wound, then no wounds are saved.

Given that the odds for his happening is less than 7%, I don't think you should count on an outcome that you will only see every 14th time you successfully inflict Soul Blaze to begin with - yes, it may be more, but it may also equally be less.

I get all that. And yet... free wounds. they are hits, so you are essentially getting free "Splitfire" shots every round it burns, the flames can begin anew every round you fire and they wounds mount up over time. Not having to hit with those is actually significant. It's all bonus damage.

I don't really know what to tell you. It comes free so you can argue it into the ground but if you're playing Tzeentch, as far as I'm concerned there's no downside to the feature. Not like you can pay less and NOT get it. Lol. So why are you even going on about it really?

Its not free. You spend 15 pts for it. Why would i spend 15 points for a terrible rule?

What? Read the codex again. Only the ones on vehicles cost. the effect is on all their bolters. So are you talking about the affect they get for FREE that Im talking about or are you talking about something else? If you're talking about something else, and I'm not, then perhaps you are responding to someone else?

Inferno bolts. they are free. they come on every soldier. Are we talking about the same thing or not?

Inferno bolts make their bolt weapons AP3, but it is not the same thing as Soul Blaze (which requires the Tzeentch icon upgrade).

Who is it that needs to read the codex again, exactly?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:
Sure. You could use an extreme example in an ironic effort to point out my non-existent hyperbole regarding the number of potential wounds. Sure. Do you feel that helped you solidify your point? We WERE talking about a D3 and whether it comes up a 3 often,. in fact it comes up AS often as the other results!

I'm not overselling. I said the word "CAN". Someone changes that to "WILL" i ntheir mind. This is moving goal posts. This is pretending I said one thing to get angry instead of actually carefully reading me. I put the usual proviso of "Can" on it. I don't think anyone reading needs that word explained to them.

Gretchin can shoot down Riptides in Overwatch too. That doesn't mean it's likely.

In a similar vein, the chance of getting 3 Soul Blaze hits is about 17.5% (when you account for the fact that it has a 50% chance to just vanish and do nothing) but the chance of getting 3 kills on boyz is even smaller.

So even at best, you will get a pretty minor benefit. At best. Most likely you won't do anything noticeable.

nareik wrote:
Going back to the double CAD idea, you're just going to have to fill the second CAD's troops with cultists (which is fluffy enough, I suppose) and move all the thousand sons to the primary CAD.

I think maximising HQ slot sorcerors is the way to go if you want lots of sorcerors. It's just a little more flexible (imo of course).

I was going to answer this! Sorry for being late

I could do

Primary:

Arhiman
Sorcerer on disc, master level 3, burning brand. Refluffed as his special spell. he's batman

3 Chaos Termy, tzeentch, 3 combi, 1 chainfist
3 Chaos Termy, undivided, 3 combi, 1 chainfist

4 Rubric Plus sorc, Rhino
4 Rubric Plus sorc, Rhino
4 Rubric Plus sorc, Rhino
4 Rubric Plus sorc, Rhino

Hellpigeon

Obliterator
Obliterator

Allied, Crimson Slaughter

Termy UNDIVIDED sorcerer with summon demon item, mastery 3

10 cultists
10 cultists

Spare minis for the summon of the Crimson Slaughter (horrors, flamers, discs..).

One TS squad or one termy can go to allow in spawns.

Is 2000 pt more or less and 14 dice plus the summmons if they happen ;D


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:
The problem with thousand sons list is generally thousand sons.

Most of the god specific marines have very niche roles they fill without really being able to diversify outside of those roles. Noise Marines and Deathguard are a slight exception as you can kit out okay assault or okay shooting squads from them.

Khorne is just assault, and thousand sons are just anti meq midrange shots.

The TS are a remnant of an age in which so many special rules would have been overpowered but disappear now under the shadow of Riptides and D templates and free transports. I mean look at the Wulfen. Overworked minis aside, people answered mildly at the rules because they know that the chance they are shot to bits is very high. In 3rd those things would have been a unit in god-mode. The only thing that the Wulfen accomplish is to make other melee units disappear. Why calculate a well-timed counter assault with banshees or incubi, hoping they strike faster, eldar-style? That dumb "attack even if dead" rule kills any tactics. the hack who wrote that rule should be ashamed.

I would take 2 min sized thousand sons squads with sorcerer, and rhino with no upgrades for the rhino and call it a day on thousands son squads.

I would highly consider the new daemon soulgrinder formation, its 3 soulgrinders who basically buff each other if one of them kills anything. Soulgrinders of Tz are pretty cool.

Other interesting things would be a large helcult unit. The dread which is a character with lots of cultists. The unit is fearless if the dread is alive, you can pick up cultist characters to eat bad challenges for the dread, and the dread can challenge things and smash them. Also buffs on this unit like shrouding/invis/etc can go a long way to making a large tarpit unit that can hold objectives.

Allied daemon detachment for some pink horrors/flamers/heralds/LoC or whatever. I say ally as in different faction, not necessarily the allied detachment.

The new warpflame detachmant is pretty nice.
1 Herald
2 squads of Horrors
3 units of min sized flamers
4 units of individual exalted flamers

Is not terribly expensive and the formation benefit is all the daemons within 12" of the herald can use its locus in addition to their own, and all warpflame attacks are at +1 str for units in the formation.

That is probably the best option, but I prefer do not endorse formations with the group. As community we should actually discourage GW to use them because they continue the trend of SpamHammer 40k. I mean, 3 soulgrinders? Really, GW? This is like the three dreadnought deepstriking. Awesome, but I want my dread deepstriking without the need of taking three. If makes sense that three dread can deepstrike, one can too. So I can do it at any level and point game. If it makes sense balance wise. Otherwise means rules do not matter and this is just crap to sell 3 copies of the same model.

The bitterness is not toward you, mind it. Thanks!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
If you wanna make use of the models, but without crap rules, a good alternative is to take the Sorcerors and run them as a Loyalist marine Librarius Conclave.

As for the Rubric Marines, run them as Legion of the Damned. The Legion has Slow and Purposeful and a 3++, which is a good representation of the Thousand Son's supernatural toughness and slow reflexes, and the Ignores Cover ability represents Infernobolts better than the AP3 imo. For added fluff, start the game with just the Librarius Conclave; make it look like you're "summoning" in the rubric marines with their deepstrike mechanic.

EDIT: Took out a blurp about storm shields. Forgot that only Terminator Librarians can take em.

I generally do not endorse the count-as, and formations, but I'd be damned ( ) if this does not matches the fluff exactly. Another good idea! Thank you people! I am more and more motivated, regardless the difficulties

Edit

 Ashiraya wrote:
Inferno bolts make their bolt weapons AP3, but it is not the same thing as Soul Blaze (which requires the Tzeentch icon upgrade).

Who is it that needs to read the codex again, exactly?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:
Sure. You could use an extreme example in an ironic effort to point out my non-existent hyperbole regarding the number of potential wounds. Sure. Do you feel that helped you solidify your point? We WERE talking about a D3 and whether it comes up a 3 often,. in fact it comes up AS often as the other results!

I'm not overselling. I said the word "CAN". Someone changes that to "WILL" i ntheir mind. This is moving goal posts. This is pretending I said one thing to get angry instead of actually carefully reading me. I put the usual proviso of "Can" on it. I don't think anyone reading needs that word explained to them.

Gretchin can shoot down Riptides in Overwatch too. That doesn't mean it's likely.

In a similar vein, the chance of getting 3 Soul Blaze hits is about 17.5% (when you account for the fact that it has a 50% chance to just vanish and do nothing) but the chance of getting 3 kills on boyz is even smaller.

So even at best, you will get a pretty minor benefit. At best. Most likely you won't do anything noticeable.

I disagree. Against hordes the cumulative effect can be telling. We are talking about 5-6 turns of several units on fire.

It's fine if you don't agree because the benefit is FREE.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Inferno bolts make their bolt weapons AP3, but it is not the same thing as Soul Blaze (which requires the Tzeentch icon upgrade).

Who is it that needs to read the codex again, exactly?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:
Sure. You could use an extreme example in an ironic effort to point out my non-existent hyperbole regarding the number of potential wounds. Sure. Do you feel that helped you solidify your point? We WERE talking about a D3 and whether it comes up a 3 often,. in fact it comes up AS often as the other results!

I'm not overselling. I said the word "CAN". Someone changes that to "WILL" i ntheir mind. This is moving goal posts. This is pretending I said one thing to get angry instead of actually carefully reading me. I put the usual proviso of "Can" on it. I don't think anyone reading needs that word explained to them.

Gretchin can shoot down Riptides in Overwatch too. That doesn't mean it's likely.

In a similar vein, the chance of getting 3 Soul Blaze hits is about 17.5% (when you account for the fact that it has a 50% chance to just vanish and do nothing) but the chance of getting 3 kills on boyz is even smaller.

So even at best, you will get a pretty minor benefit. At best. Most likely you won't do anything noticeable.

You're not taking the Flag? Why?

15 pt for soulblaze and you might actually win combat with +1 result which you don't want with snp dudes.

Kaiyanwang wrote:
Edit

I understand you may not like formations, however spamming things in a cad is essentially the same as taking a formation that has 3 units.

Spamhammer existed long before formations.

Outside of formations and detachments there is really little variety for thousand sons.

I would reccomend an unit of spawn instead of the fourth thousand son unit.

You'd be better off just using the Sorcerer models, minimum Cultists for troops, and using MoN Spawn to just sling them into the front lines. I can do it with Typhus, so you should have little issue.

Just remember not to mark the Sorcerers. You HAVE to roll on one of those gakky tables if you do, and honestly the marks aren't worth it. You can get T5 with a bike (which can let you feel at speed with the Spawn), 4++ isn't much off from 3++, and the Force Axe is likely your best weapon anyway.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/653893.page#7952510

I took what I consider to be a reliatively fluffy TSons army to a decent sized tourney and documented my experiences and the games played.

Hopefully you can get something from that, or at least believe me when I say stuff about how the units work (unlike some others here who have no idea how units actually work and repeatedly give out terrible advice).

CAD - Crimson Slaughter
175 - Sorceror, ML3, Balestar, Sigil, Mark of Tzeentch
259 - 8x Thousand Sons, Melta Bombs, Rhino
282 - 9x Thousand Sons, Melta Bombs, Rhino
170 - Heldrake, Baleflamer
175 - Forgefiend, Hades Autocannons
145 - Vindicator, Daemonic Possession, Combi Bolter, Dozer Blade
145 - Vindicator, Daemonic Possession, Combi Bolter, Dozer Blade

Chaos Daemon Allies
125 - Herald of Tzeentch, Disk, ML2, Exalted Reward [Grimoure]
125 - Herald of Tzeentch, Disk, ML2, Exalted Reward [Portalglyph]
99 - 11x Horrors of Tzeentch
150 - 6x Screamers of Tzeentch

1850, 11 + d6 warp charge

You could easily remove the forgefiend for something useful (like buffing the ML's on the heralds and adding 3 more screamers or adding another ML3 sorceror and a mastery level on one of the heralds), or forget the mini star and just take heralds on foot hiding in horror squads to really buff up your warp charge. There's lots of tweaks that can be made that alter the list in quite important ways, but as a base, it works OK in a casual environment.

There's no reason not to go Crimson Slaughter for the Balestar and fear on everyone (Ha, fear, like it matters) since you don't lose anything important but gaining div for 10 points is huge. The 2+ armour with IWND is also handy for a 2nd caster (or if you don't want div), since losing a wound to perils is common and a way to get it back outside of(or even in combination with) life leech is nice. Black Legion has the Last Memory, but failing to cast a high level sunburst is a hell of a lot more likely in 7th, even with a spell familiar, compared to 6th, so that downside is a very real threat rather than the <1% chance it used to be.

The Sons themselves are generally pretty lacklustre unfortunately unless you can roll doombolt consistantly, it's a great power (the others are all terrible, though firestorm can be OK against hoardes like orks/guard/bug carpet nids). Rhinos are mandatory since moving 6" a turn is terrible and they need to get midfield ASAP. Their poor damage is occassionally made up for by rolling Perfect Timing (ignores cover) on the sorc, since you can now mulch anything that's not rocking a 2+ or T6 (though both of those are far too prevalent these days).

I will back everyone else up when they point out their vulnerability to small arms fire and the relative uselessness of their 4++ with the availability of cover now, though on the odd occasion where you need them to be a tarpit who can occassionally punch out something dangerous (force weapon on the sorceror), that 4++ and fearless means that many monsterous creatures or even dreadnaughts (though not so much anymore with 4 attacks base now) aren't terribly keen on facing them in CC if they want to do anything else for the rest of the game.

If the core of your army is going to be TSons, you really, really need to build the rest of the list around them, as there's a bunch of stuff they can't do and a small handful of things that they do OK at. Being fearless, ObSec and having a 4++ means they hold a forward objective reasonably well, with the AP3 bolters being a reasonable deterant to anyone thinking about trying to camp an objective in the open.

Beyond that though, they're slow once their rhino gets destroyed, so making sure they're not out of position before that happens (or before you commit them by getting out of the rhino) is important. Being out of the rhino also means you're now subject to your main enemy; AP- guns. I can't count the amount of times I've lost my 23 point marines to hails of scatterlasers, devourers, lasguns, stubbers and bolters. This means you're going to have to find good mobility in the rest of your list. I find that the 'Drake and the screamers do OK in this role and that you can get a surprising amount of milage from pinning infantry into cover for fear of AP3 bolters only for the 'Drake to evaporate them when he comes on.

Speaking of the drake, his 1st priority is to vector strike any fliers out of the air 1st and worry about ground targets later. If you can do both in the same turn, it's a bonus, but control of the skies is the most important thing. The only other thing in the CSM dex that can touch fliers is either autocannon havoks or the forgefiend, and prescience from either Tz daemons or the balestar sorc helps both immensely. Pointing your TSons bolters skywards can get the job done if you're desperate for that last wound on an FMC, but it's certainly not something to count on rolling double 6's with only 19 dice from a full 9 man squad in rapidfire range.

Beyond doombolt or hitting stuff with a force axe or melta bombs, you've also got no real way to damage 2+ armour or vehicles, so that's something you're going to need to find in the rest of your list as well. I like Vindicators since they deal with both problems, add armour saturation to ensure my rhinos survive turn 1 and generally perform well for their cost, though Oblits are probably the better choice here. MoT Oblits are better vs Grav and Imperium Plasma while nurlge gets the nod over anything else.but then, that's breaking theme. Screamers can put a dent in both as well, though it's only 1 attack each at AP2 and you still have to hit and wound, do it's not exactly reliable, but since they fill so many other roles, you're probably taking them anyway.

Speaking of daemons, as summons, there's a few that are simply better than others.
-Bloodcrushers are fantastic summons and my #1 pick for Incusion. I've never seen anything soak as much fire as crushers summoned in close to a battle line and the prevalence of volume of Str 6/7 over low RoF str 8/9 has done them huge favours since they get to use all 3 wounds far more often now. Still not enough to pay 145 points for 3, but when they're free? Yeah, they're great.
-Screamers are another solid choice for Incursion, and you should probably already have some in your list that you can recycle, but unless you need jetbike mobility or armourbane to crack walkers or AV14, I'd still be summoning crushers. -Horrors are great for holding an objective in a ruin and providing warp charge and sacrifice herald fodder
-Deamonettes are the go to for combat troops since they're fast and have lots of rending attacks.
-If you summon heralds, there's no excuse not to create a Tz herald since he comes with a mastery level and can roll div, so pick a disk or another mastery level and call it a day. -For possession, a keeper is probably the way to go since if you grab a thirster then he has to waste a turn coming in, then another switching from swooping to gliding before he can assault and the GUO can be walked away from too easily and besides, Tzeentch hates Nurgle, so don't break theme. A LoC is an option, but you should already have enough Div in your list and the Tz daemons spells, while miles better than the CSM ones, still aren't anything to write home about, though the new Str D shot is OK and the cleansing flame rip-off is brilliant for WC1.

Monsterous creatures (especially good ones like riptides and dreadknights with a 2+/5++) present a real problem that Obliterators are, IMHO, the answer to. Plasma chosen with Ahriman can work, but it's expensive and usually a suicide mission. Since you're not getting psychic focus anyway, rolling telepathy for shriek is a decent backup and rolling telepathy isn't even terrible anyway because handing out invis or shrouding is never going to be terrible, though the fearless power can be a bit hit and miss unless you've got Oblits, then it's gold because those buggers will run at the drop of a hat. Other than that, again we come back to hoping for perfect timing and or misfortune on the Balestar sorceror since anyone worth playing is going to cram their monstrous creatures in cover, negating your AP3 or just not care and wander wherever they like if they have a 2+.

Combat, while generally not the best place for TSons, isn't all terrible, since a unit wide 4++ means that AP2/3 doesn't scare you anywhere near as much as it does other infantry and having force weapons (and by weapons, I mean axes) available means that you can still pack a moderate punch. There is a certain charm to rapid firing AP3 bolters and then charging, but being on the recieving end of a charge with no overwatch and only 1 attack each means you're not going to achieve much other than dying against anyone who gets the drop on you, especially against people brining your other biggest enemy; volumes of AP- CC attacks. Yes, you're fearless, but you're also 23 points a model and T4 with only 1 wound, 1 attack and a 3+ save. If you get into combat with cultists, you're in trouble. TSons are an odd example where chop the choppy and shoot the shooty is sometimes the answer. Don't let that put you off charging though, it's a valuable thing and can easily save you at the cost of being locked in combat for a few rounds. Try to do it on an objective for the lulz, because Fearless ObSec marines who can't be shot are almost the best thing there is.

Well, renegades offers you something that you will be sorely lacking...(cheap) bodies. A renegade infantry platoon is cheaper than the same amount of cultists. They are weaker with their WS/WS 2 but that's not really saying much. On the other hand they get pseudo fearless and can all get krak grenades, which makes them a whole lot scarier than cultists if you ask me. And you can divide them up to cover more ground than cultists, since having 30 guys over 3 units makes cultists even more expensive in comparison. Although depending on your stance on mutants, a mutant rabble makes for an excellent tarpit that might also be able to scout or dish out a lot of S4 hammer of wrath attacks. Which are also +1 strength and not a flat 4, so if they get buffs, the would get a better HoW yet.

The command squad probably isn't going to do much for you since it wouldn't be the primary detachment, but you have to take it either way. So, you might want to take an autocannon on that and maybe stick it in a rhino and pretend its a razorback lol. The Enforcers are good if you have a mutant rabble. Better leadership and rage on a large mob is decent. 3 rogue psykers actually end up cheaper than a ML 3 sorcerer, but even in a Tzeentch list...I dunno. depends on the terrain and your expected opponent I guess. Unnatural vigour would help that mob actually get somewhere and creeping terror is nice vs non marines, but 12 inch means you can never cast it unless you put the psyker in a transport. In which case he would be all on his lonesome. And the sorcerer gets an free powerweapon and power armour along with his better stats, so they're probably not worth it.

Nothing really interesting in elites since you can't use master of renegades. Fast attack has valkyries that could offset some of your slow movement thanks to grave chute insertion. In heavy support you get many interesting choices, but the laser destroyer battery is probably chief among them. Since TSons aren't so hot against tanks.

For The csm part I'd go with either black legion or crimson slaughter. The TSons come stock with VotLW, so you don't need to pay extra points on them, and I quite like memory of yuranthos. Also 30 points for an additional mastery isn't half bad. With the errata it has soulblaze stock, and while I agree that Jancoran is little too optimistic about soulblaze, with an 18 inch radius nova you're going to hit like half an army if not more. SOMETHING will die to soulblaze. Unless you facing a super elite army or mechanized, I find it's a steal at 30 points. It's like the equivalent of 4-5 tactical squads minus the need for line of sight AND can hit units that are tied up in combat.
Divination from crimson slaughter is of course also interesting, especially with the TSons, since they could now have ignore cover on Ap3 bolters. Or a 4+ invulnerable on a blob and rending means those 30+ flashlights suddenly become a lot scarier. Prophet of the voices on the other hand seems less useful to me. Possesed aren't exactly fitting the TSons theme imho, and the kasyr lutien legacy let's you reroll the bothersome dice while still allowing you to join any unit you want. It also happens to be cheaper. Though you can loose it over the course of a battle.
Overall biomancy isn't that good but enfeeble will help both bolters and flashlights. Either daemonlogy is good. And pyromancy is more useful if you go the black legion route since you now have 4/6 pyromancy powers. Fiery Form and yuranthos are pretty nice. With enough sorcerers you can apply soulblaze to an entire army, though that of course depends on how much infantry they're packing. Telepathy is ..well...telepathy lol. Can't go wrong there.

In general you'll want to save points were possible. Although, personally I find ten man TSons better than min sized. They just don't do enough with 4 bolters. I still take the rhino to block sight and/or cap objectives but I prefer to footslog them once they are in range of a unit.

I guess I'll try to get some kind of list together when I have a moment.

 Drasius wrote:

Spoiler:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/653893.page#7952510

I took what I consider to be a reliatively fluffy TSons army to a decent sized tourney and documented my experiences and the games played.

Hopefully you can get something from that, or at least believe me when I say stuff about how the units work (unlike some others here who have no idea how units actually work and repeatedly give out terrible advice).

CAD - Crimson Slaughter
175 - Sorceror, ML3, Balestar, Sigil, Mark of Tzeentch
259 - 8x Thousand Sons, Melta Bombs, Rhino
282 - 9x Thousand Sons, Melta Bombs, Rhino
170 - Heldrake, Baleflamer
175 - Forgefiend, Hades Autocannons
145 - Vindicator, Daemonic Possession, Combi Bolter, Dozer Blade
145 - Vindicator, Daemonic Possession, Combi Bolter, Dozer Blade

Chaos Daemon Allies
125 - Herald of Tzeentch, Disk, ML2, Exalted Reward [Grimoure]
125 - Herald of Tzeentch, Disk, ML2, Exalted Reward [Portalglyph]
99 - 11x Horrors of Tzeentch
150 - 6x Screamers of Tzeentch

1850, 11 + d6 warp charge

You could easily remove the forgefiend for something useful (like buffing the ML's on the heralds and adding 3 more screamers or adding another ML3 sorceror and a mastery level on one of the heralds), or forget the mini star and just take heralds on foot hiding in horror squads to really buff up your warp charge. There's lots of tweaks that can be made that alter the list in quite important ways, but as a base, it works OK in a casual environment.

There's no reason not to go Crimson Slaughter for the Balestar and fear on everyone (Ha, fear, like it matters) since you don't lose anything important but gaining div for 10 points is huge. The 2+ armour with IWND is also handy for a 2nd caster (or if you don't want div), since losing a wound to perils is common and a way to get it back outside of(or even in combination with) life leech is nice. Black Legion has the Last Memory, but failing to cast a high level sunburst is a hell of a lot more likely in 7th, even with a spell familiar, compared to 6th, so that downside is a very real threat rather than the <1% chance it used to be.

The Sons themselves are generally pretty lacklustre unfortunately unless you can roll doombolt consistantly, it's a great power (the others are all terrible, though firestorm can be OK against hoardes like orks/guard/bug carpet nids). Rhinos are mandatory since moving 6" a turn is terrible and they need to get midfield ASAP. Their poor damage is occassionally made up for by rolling Perfect Timing (ignores cover) on the sorc, since you can now mulch anything that's not rocking a 2+ or T6 (though both of those are far too prevalent these days).

I will back everyone else up when they point out their vulnerability to small arms fire and the relative uselessness of their 4++ with the availability of cover now, though on the odd occasion where you need them to be a tarpit who can occassionally punch out something dangerous (force weapon on the sorceror), that 4++ and fearless means that many monsterous creatures or even dreadnaughts (though not so much anymore with 4 attacks base now) aren't terribly keen on facing them in CC if they want to do anything else for the rest of the game.

If the core of your army is going to be TSons, you really, really need to build the rest of the list around them, as there's a bunch of stuff they can't do and a small handful of things that they do OK at. Being fearless, ObSec and having a 4++ means they hold a forward objective reasonably well, with the AP3 bolters being a reasonable deterant to anyone thinking about trying to camp an objective in the open.

Beyond that though, they're slow once their rhino gets destroyed, so making sure they're not out of position before that happens (or before you commit them by getting out of the rhino) is important. Being out of the rhino also means you're now subject to your main enemy; AP- guns. I can't count the amount of times I've lost my 23 point marines to hails of scatterlasers, devourers, lasguns, stubbers and bolters. This means you're going to have to find good mobility in the rest of your list. I find that the 'Drake and the screamers do OK in this role and that you can get a surprising amount of milage from pinning infantry into cover for fear of AP3 bolters only for the 'Drake to evaporate them when he comes on.

Speaking of the drake, his 1st priority is to vector strike any fliers out of the air 1st and worry about ground targets later. If you can do both in the same turn, it's a bonus, but control of the skies is the most important thing. The only other thing in the CSM dex that can touch fliers is either autocannon havoks or the forgefiend, and prescience from either Tz daemons or the balestar sorc helps both immensely. Pointing your TSons bolters skywards can get the job done if you're desperate for that last wound on an FMC, but it's certainly not something to count on rolling double 6's with only 19 dice from a full 9 man squad in rapidfire range.

Beyond doombolt or hitting stuff with a force axe or melta bombs, you've also got no real way to damage 2+ armour or vehicles, so that's something you're going to need to find in the rest of your list as well. I like Vindicators since they deal with both problems, add armour saturation to ensure my rhinos survive turn 1 and generally perform well for their cost, though Oblits are probably the better choice here. MoT Oblits are better vs Grav and Imperium Plasma while nurlge gets the nod over anything else.but then, that's breaking theme. Screamers can put a dent in both as well, though it's only 1 attack each at AP2 and you still have to hit and wound, do it's not exactly reliable, but since they fill so many other roles, you're probably taking them anyway.

Speaking of daemons, as summons, there's a few that are simply better than others.
-Bloodcrushers are fantastic summons and my #1 pick for Incusion. I've never seen anything soak as much fire as crushers summoned in close to a battle line and the prevalence of volume of Str 6/7 over low RoF str 8/9 has done them huge favours since they get to use all 3 wounds far more often now. Still not enough to pay 145 points for 3, but when they're free? Yeah, they're great.
-Screamers are another solid choice for Incursion, and you should probably already have some in your list that you can recycle, but unless you need jetbike mobility or armourbane to crack walkers or AV14, I'd still be summoning crushers. -Horrors are great for holding an objective in a ruin and providing warp charge and sacrifice herald fodder
-Deamonettes are the go to for combat troops since they're fast and have lots of rending attacks.
-If you summon heralds, there's no excuse not to create a Tz herald since he comes with a mastery level and can roll div, so pick a disk or another mastery level and call it a day. -For possession, a keeper is probably the way to go since if you grab a thirster then he has to waste a turn coming in, then another switching from swooping to gliding before he can assault and the GUO can be walked away from too easily and besides, Tzeentch hates Nurgle, so don't break theme. A LoC is an option, but you should already have enough Div in your list and the Tz daemons spells, while miles better than the CSM ones, still aren't anything to write home about, though the new Str D shot is OK and the cleansing flame rip-off is brilliant for WC1.

Monsterous creatures (especially good ones like riptides and dreadknights with a 2+/5++) present a real problem that Obliterators are, IMHO, the answer to. Plasma chosen with Ahriman can work, but it's expensive and usually a suicide mission. Since you're not getting psychic focus anyway, rolling telepathy for shriek is a decent backup and rolling telepathy isn't even terrible anyway because handing out invis or shrouding is never going to be terrible, though the fearless power can be a bit hit and miss unless you've got Oblits, then it's gold because those buggers will run at the drop of a hat. Other than that, again we come back to hoping for perfect timing and or misfortune on the Balestar sorceror since anyone worth playing is going to cram their monstrous creatures in cover, negating your AP3 or just not care and wander wherever they like if they have a 2+.

Combat, while generally not the best place for TSons, isn't all terrible, since a unit wide 4++ means that AP2/3 doesn't scare you anywhere near as much as it does other infantry and having force weapons (and by weapons, I mean axes) available means that you can still pack a moderate punch. There is a certain charm to rapid firing AP3 bolters and then charging, but being on the recieving end of a charge with no overwatch and only 1 attack each means you're not going to achieve much other than dying against anyone who gets the drop on you, especially against people brining your other biggest enemy; volumes of AP- CC attacks. Yes, you're fearless, but you're also 23 points a model and T4 with only 1 wound, 1 attack and a 3+ save. If you get into combat with cultists, you're in trouble. TSons are an odd example where chop the choppy and shoot the shooty is sometimes the answer. Don't let that put you off charging though, it's a valuable thing and can easily save you at the cost of being locked in combat for a few rounds. Try to do it on an objective for the lulz, because Fearless ObSec marines who can't be shot are almost the best thing there is.

I agree with everything Drasius says here. I'm just personally not a big fan of allying with daemons or even summoning them. Not that I think it's a bad idea, far from it. I just prefer to see the mortals do the heavy lifting.

 koooaei wrote:
15 pt for soulblaze and you might actually win combat with +1 result which you don't want with snp dudes.

No no I don't think you understand. Clearly the points you pay are only for the +1 result to combat. The soul blaze is free. Even though it is a rule that comes with the banner you should in no way think that the price of it is included in the price of the banner. The banner is practically mandatory I couldn't imagine why you wouldn't take it. Thousand sons are totally an assault unit, and as an assault unit they NEED that +1 to combat results. Ignore the fact that they are fearless so that if they lose combat nothing happens anyways. Also ignore the fact +1 to combat results makes them win combat, and since they are slow and purposeful the more they win combat by the more likely their prey is going to escape. You need to ignore all that. Because the most important part is so good you wont even believe it. They get soul blaze for free!

Seriously though soul blaze is such an awfully ineffective rule that I would not pay even a single point per model to take it. Let alone the 1.5 - 3 points the thousand sons have to pay. There is no need to handy cap an underperforming unit even harder.

Ah yea..that banner....Pretend it doesn't exist lol. That's the kind of bad that you don't even take for fun.

Maybe if Rubrics had Soul Blaze standard and the banner did something else they would still be garbage, but by not as much.

Still better than Warp Talons and Mutilators at least?

Mutilators have some use. As suicide distractions.

 Drasius wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/653893.page#7952510

Spoiler:

I took what I consider to be a reliatively fluffy TSons army to a decent sized tourney and documented my experiences and the games played.

Hopefully you can get something from that, or at least believe me when I say stuff about how the units work (unlike some others here who have no idea how units actually work and repeatedly give out terrible advice).

CAD - Crimson Slaughter
175 - Sorceror, ML3, Balestar, Sigil, Mark of Tzeentch
259 - 8x Thousand Sons, Melta Bombs, Rhino
282 - 9x Thousand Sons, Melta Bombs, Rhino
170 - Heldrake, Baleflamer
175 - Forgefiend, Hades Autocannons
145 - Vindicator, Daemonic Possession, Combi Bolter, Dozer Blade
145 - Vindicator, Daemonic Possession, Combi Bolter, Dozer Blade

Chaos Daemon Allies
125 - Herald of Tzeentch, Disk, ML2, Exalted Reward [Grimoure]
125 - Herald of Tzeentch, Disk, ML2, Exalted Reward [Portalglyph]
99 - 11x Horrors of Tzeentch
150 - 6x Screamers of Tzeentch

1850, 11 + d6 warp charge

You could easily remove the forgefiend for something useful (like buffing the ML's on the heralds and adding 3 more screamers or adding another ML3 sorceror and a mastery level on one of the heralds), or forget the mini star and just take heralds on foot hiding in horror squads to really buff up your warp charge. There's lots of tweaks that can be made that alter the list in quite important ways, but as a base, it works OK in a casual environment.

There's no reason not to go Crimson Slaughter for the Balestar and fear on everyone (Ha, fear, like it matters) since you don't lose anything important but gaining div for 10 points is huge. The 2+ armour with IWND is also handy for a 2nd caster (or if you don't want div), since losing a wound to perils is common and a way to get it back outside of(or even in combination with) life leech is nice. Black Legion has the Last Memory, but failing to cast a high level sunburst is a hell of a lot more likely in 7th, even with a spell familiar, compared to 6th, so that downside is a very real threat rather than the <1% chance it used to be.

The Sons themselves are generally pretty lacklustre unfortunately unless you can roll doombolt consistantly, it's a great power (the others are all terrible, though firestorm can be OK against hoardes like orks/guard/bug carpet nids). Rhinos are mandatory since moving 6" a turn is terrible and they need to get midfield ASAP. Their poor damage is occassionally made up for by rolling Perfect Timing (ignores cover) on the sorc, since you can now mulch anything that's not rocking a 2+ or T6 (though both of those are far too prevalent these days).

I will back everyone else up when they point out their vulnerability to small arms fire and the relative uselessness of their 4++ with the availability of cover now, though on the odd occasion where you need them to be a tarpit who can occassionally punch out something dangerous (force weapon on the sorceror), that 4++ and fearless means that many monsterous creatures or even dreadnaughts (though not so much anymore with 4 attacks base now) aren't terribly keen on facing them in CC if they want to do anything else for the rest of the game.

If the core of your army is going to be TSons, you really, really need to build the rest of the list around them, as there's a bunch of stuff they can't do and a small handful of things that they do OK at. Being fearless, ObSec and having a 4++ means they hold a forward objective reasonably well, with the AP3 bolters being a reasonable deterant to anyone thinking about trying to camp an objective in the open.

Beyond that though, they're slow once their rhino gets destroyed, so making sure they're not out of position before that happens (or before you commit them by getting out of the rhino) is important. Being out of the rhino also means you're now subject to your main enemy; AP- guns. I can't count the amount of times I've lost my 23 point marines to hails of scatterlasers, devourers, lasguns, stubbers and bolters. This means you're going to have to find good mobility in the rest of your list. I find that the 'Drake and the screamers do OK in this role and that you can get a surprising amount of milage from pinning infantry into cover for fear of AP3 bolters only for the 'Drake to evaporate them when he comes on.

Speaking of the drake, his 1st priority is to vector strike any fliers out of the air 1st and worry about ground targets later. If you can do both in the same turn, it's a bonus, but control of the skies is the most important thing. The only other thing in the CSM dex that can touch fliers is either autocannon havoks or the forgefiend, and prescience from either Tz daemons or the balestar sorc helps both immensely. Pointing your TSons bolters skywards can get the job done if you're desperate for that last wound on an FMC, but it's certainly not something to count on rolling double 6's with only 19 dice from a full 9 man squad in rapidfire range.

Beyond doombolt or hitting stuff with a force axe or melta bombs, you've also got no real way to damage 2+ armour or vehicles, so that's something you're going to need to find in the rest of your list as well. I like Vindicators since they deal with both problems, add armour saturation to ensure my rhinos survive turn 1 and generally perform well for their cost, though Oblits are probably the better choice here. MoT Oblits are better vs Grav and Imperium Plasma while nurlge gets the nod over anything else.but then, that's breaking theme. Screamers can put a dent in both as well, though it's only 1 attack each at AP2 and you still have to hit and wound, do it's not exactly reliable, but since they fill so many other roles, you're probably taking them anyway.

Speaking of daemons, as summons, there's a few that are simply better than others.
-Bloodcrushers are fantastic summons and my #1 pick for Incusion. I've never seen anything soak as much fire as crushers summoned in close to a battle line and the prevalence of volume of Str 6/7 over low RoF str 8/9 has done them huge favours since they get to use all 3 wounds far more often now. Still not enough to pay 145 points for 3, but when they're free? Yeah, they're great.
-Screamers are another solid choice for Incursion, and you should probably already have some in your list that you can recycle, but unless you need jetbike mobility or armourbane to crack walkers or AV14, I'd still be summoning crushers. -Horrors are great for holding an objective in a ruin and providing warp charge and sacrifice herald fodder
-Deamonettes are the go to for combat troops since they're fast and have lots of rending attacks.
-If you summon heralds, there's no excuse not to create a Tz herald since he comes with a mastery level and can roll div, so pick a disk or another mastery level and call it a day. -For possession, a keeper is probably the way to go since if you grab a thirster then he has to waste a turn coming in, then another switching from swooping to gliding before he can assault and the GUO can be walked away from too easily and besides, Tzeentch hates Nurgle, so don't break theme. A LoC is an option, but you should already have enough Div in your list and the Tz daemons spells, while miles better than the CSM ones, still aren't anything to write home about, though the new Str D shot is OK and the cleansing flame rip-off is brilliant for WC1.

Monsterous creatures (especially good ones like riptides and dreadknights with a 2+/5++) present a real problem that Obliterators are, IMHO, the answer to. Plasma chosen with Ahriman can work, but it's expensive and usually a suicide mission. Since you're not getting psychic focus anyway, rolling telepathy for shriek is a decent backup and rolling telepathy isn't even terrible anyway because handing out invis or shrouding is never going to be terrible, though the fearless power can be a bit hit and miss unless you've got Oblits, then it's gold because those buggers will run at the drop of a hat. Other than that, again we come back to hoping for perfect timing and or misfortune on the Balestar sorceror since anyone worth playing is going to cram their monstrous creatures in cover, negating your AP3 or just not care and wander wherever they like if they have a 2+.

Combat, while generally not the best place for TSons, isn't all terrible, since a unit wide 4++ means that AP2/3 doesn't scare you anywhere near as much as it does other infantry and having force weapons (and by weapons, I mean axes) available means that you can still pack a moderate punch. There is a certain charm to rapid firing AP3 bolters and then charging, but being on the recieving end of a charge with no overwatch and only 1 attack each means you're not going to achieve much other than dying against anyone who gets the drop on you, especially against people brining your other biggest enemy; volumes of AP- CC attacks. Yes, you're fearless, but you're also 23 points a model and T4 with only 1 wound, 1 attack and a 3+ save. If you get into combat with cultists, you're in trouble. TSons are an odd example where chop the choppy and shoot the shooty is sometimes the answer. Don't let that put you off charging though, it's a valuable thing and can easily save you at the cost of being locked in combat for a few rounds. Try to do it on an objective for the lulz, because Fearless ObSec marines who can't be shot are almost the best thing there is.

My only complaint here is that one squad of Thousand Sons was not at 9 models (Tzeentch's lucky number). But I guess your HQ sorceror would have filled the hole.

Martel732 wrote:
Mutilators have some use. As suicide distractions.

Don't buy into Jancoran's garbage, Martel. This is the guy that thinks Land Raider Crusaders taking glancing hits because of shots reflected from a Tidewall is perfectly acceptable and thinks a Blobguard death star is actually effective.

 Jancoran wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


Except when it kills three. Repeatedly. And it is going off on multiple units.

if you set five units on fire which you can easily do, that could be an extra 10 hits a turn! who knows. But you really should consider that. The totality of the effect is quite good and most of the Tzeentch force can do ti for free basically.

In order for your Soul Blaze to kill three boyz, it first has to not fizzle (50% chance), then roll 3 hits, then all 3 hits wound, then no wounds are saved.

Given that the odds for his happening is less than 7%, I don't think you should count on an outcome that you will only see every 14th time you successfully inflict Soul Blaze to begin with - yes, it may be more, but it may also equally be less.

I get all that. And yet... free wounds. they are hits, so you are essentially getting free "Splitfire" shots every round it burns, the flames can begin anew every round you fire and they wounds mount up over time. Not having to hit with those is actually significant. It's all bonus damage.

I don't really know what to tell you. It comes free so you can argue it into the ground but if you're playing Tzeentch, as far as I'm concerned there's no downside to the feature. Not like you can pay less and NOT get it. Lol. So why are you even going on about it really?

Its not free. You spend 15 pts for it. Why would i spend 15 points for a terrible rule?

What? Read the codex again. Only the ones on vehicles cost. the effect is on all their bolters. So are you talking about the affect they get for FREE that Im talking about or are you talking about something else? If you're talking about something else, and I'm not, then perhaps you are responding to someone else?

Inferno bolts. they are free. they come on every soldier. Are we talking about the same thing or not?

Im not talking about inferno bolts, i'm talking about soul blaze

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Mutilators have some use. As suicide distractions.

Don't buy into Jancoran's garbage, Martel. This is the guy that thinks Land Raider Crusaders taking glancing hits because of shots reflected from a Tidewall is perfectly acceptable and thinks a Blobguard death star is actually effective.

Hehehe. Slayerfan123 thinks a 350 point artifice should do nothing more than an Aegis does for 50 points. He's the reasonable one.

Oh and he hasn't faced one. So these are all little hypothetical hates, not reasoned or justified game tested hates (like most on the internet frankly). Sure. it could do a Glancing hit. Big deal.

Now can we return to the freaking subject?

nareik wrote:
If you are using the Tsons as tax to unlock sorcerers, how about using some of the sorcerers as sorcerers proper?

Spoiler:

Something like
CAD1
Hairyman
Sorcerer

4 Tsons +sorc
4 Tsons +sorc

CAD2
Sorcer
TermiSorc

4 Tsons+sorc
4 Tsons+sorc

That uses all 5 sorcerers, the unique and the terminator. Obviously add more units to flavour; this is just a way to maximise the sorcerors and include a few rubrics... Edit: just realised, the second CAD can't take Tsons as troops; that only works on the warlord's detachment. Doh!

With so many sorcerers, have you considered mounting one on a disc of Tzeentch and giving him a burning brand?

The disc is a jetbike so boosts his T to 5, which is pretty nifty. Maybe you could deploy him with your 'spawn' to act as his bullet catchers?

For the terminator I'd consider replacing his combi bolter with a power weapon for the additional melee attack (as well as more versatility in attacks). Otherwise perhaps keep him cheap and use him as a distraction mutilator?

blaktoof wrote:

Kaiyanwang wrote:
Edit

I understand you may not like formations, however spamming things in a cad is essentially the same as taking a formation that has 3 units.

Spamhammer existed long before formations.

Outside of formations and detachments there is really little variety for thousand sons.

I would reccomend an unit of spawn instead of the fourth thousand son unit.

Sorry for the late answers, I was busy at work.

I admit my hypocrisy. And to make TS work, I fear I have to use all that is available. I will follow your advice on the spawns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Drasius wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/653893.page#7952510

I took what I consider to be a reliatively fluffy TSons army to a decent sized tourney and documented my experiences and the games played.

Hopefully you can get something from that, or at least believe me when I say stuff about how the units work (unlike some others here who have no idea how units actually work and repeatedly give out terrible advice).
(snip)

I spent time reading the content of the link. Loads of good stuff and convinced me about some daemon model. Do you think that combining daemons and putting other deepstriking units as suggested by previous posters can bring something, or is better backup with armor in any case?

More importantly, THANKS. The list of tactical advice in the post is amazing! Many, many thanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Roknar wrote:
Well, renegades offers you something that you will be sorely lacking...(cheap) bodies. A renegade infantry platoon is cheaper than the same amount of cultists. They are weaker with their WS/WS 2 but that's not really saying much. On the other hand they get pseudo fearless and can all get krak grenades, which makes them a whole lot scarier than cultists if you ask me. And you can divide them up to cover more ground than cultists, since having 30 guys over 3 units makes cultists even more expensive in comparison. Although depending on your stance on mutants, a mutant rabble makes for an excellent tarpit that might also be able to scout or dish out a lot of S4 hammer of wrath attacks. Which are also +1 strength and not a flat 4, so if they get buffs, the would get a better HoW yet.

The command squad probably isn't going to do much for you since it wouldn't be the primary detachment, but you have to take it either way. So, you might want to take an autocannon on that and maybe stick it in a rhino and pretend its a razorback lol. The Enforcers are good if you have a mutant rabble. Better leadership and rage on a large mob is decent. 3 rogue psykers actually end up cheaper than a ML 3 sorcerer, but even in a Tzeentch list...I dunno. depends on the terrain and your expected opponent I guess. Unnatural vigour would help that mob actually get somewhere and creeping terror is nice vs non marines, but 12 inch means you can never cast it unless you put the psyker in a transport. In which case he would be all on his lonesome. And the sorcerer gets an free powerweapon and power armour along with his better stats, so they're probably not worth it.

aren't rogue psykersan additional HQ unit? How can I fit them in an ally detachment?

e army or mechanized, I find it's a steal at 30 points. It's like the equivalent of 4-5 tactical squads minus the need for line of sight AND can hit units that are tied up in combat.
Divination from crimson slaughter is of course also interesting, especially with the TSons, since they could now have ignore cover on Ap3 bolters. Or a 4+ invulnerable on a blob and rending means those 30+ flashlights suddenly become a lot scarier. Prophet of the voices on the other hand seems less useful to me. Possesed aren't exactly fitting the TSons theme imho, and the kasyr lutien legacy let's you reroll the bothersome dice while still allowing you to join any unit you want. It also happens to be cheaper. Though you can loose it over the course of a battle.

Possessed and Gal Vorbak used as spawns would be the remnants of the mutated, lost original 1000k sons; to avoid more of THAT, Mr. A cast the rubric. Not sure about possessed, but maybe the Vorbak-spawns are in the line.

Overall biomancy isn't that good but enfeeble will help both bolters and flashlights. Either daemonlogy is good. And pyromancy is more useful if you go the black legion route since you now have 4/6 pyromancy powers. Fiery Form and yuranthos are pretty nice. With enough sorcerers you can apply soulblaze to an entire army, though that of course depends on how much infantry they're packing. Telepathy is ..well...telepathy lol. Can't go wrong there.

In general you'll want to save points were possible. Although, personally I find ten man TSons better than min sized. They just don't do enough with 4 bolters. I still take the rhino to block sight and/or cap objectives but I prefer to footslog them once they are in range of a unit.

I guess I'll try to get some kind of list together when I have a moment.

This are good suggestions about psypowers. Thanks!
BTW, since it turns out cultists are invaluable, i put some cultists and traitor guard on the pipeline, I will use them as one or another in base of the situation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 =Angel= wrote:

nareik wrote:
If you are using the Tsons as tax to unlock sorcerers, how about using some of the sorcerers as sorcerers proper?

Spoiler:

Something like
CAD1
Hairyman
Sorcerer

4 Tsons +sorc
4 Tsons +sorc

CAD2
Sorcer
TermiSorc

4 Tsons+sorc
4 Tsons+sorc

That uses all 5 sorcerers, the unique and the terminator. Obviously add more units to flavour; this is just a way to maximise the sorcerors and include a few rubrics... Edit: just realised, the second CAD can't take Tsons as troops; that only works on the warlord's detachment. Doh!

With so many sorcerers, have you considered mounting one on a disc of Tzeentch and giving him a burning brand?

The disc is a jetbike so boosts his T to 5, which is pretty nifty. Maybe you could deploy him with your 'spawn' to act as his bullet catchers?

For the terminator I'd consider replacing his combi bolter with a power weapon for the additional melee attack (as well as more versatility in attacks). Otherwise perhaps keep him cheap and use him as a distraction mutilator?