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I was thinking back to my read-through of 'Rebirth' (the first novel in Nick Kyme's new 40K Salamanders series) and it featured a Veteran-Sergeant leading a Battle-Company Assault Squad. That got me wondering about how Chapters go about distributing Veterans amongst the Chapter. Obviously, the main proportion would be in the 1st Company, but can Veterans actually choose to serve in the line companies on a permanent basis? Further to that, must they always serve as NCO's, or can they simply choose to serve as a 'regular' brother, but with Veteran status?

To be called a Veteran with an upper case V, you have to have served in the 1st Company AFAIK. You can still take positions elsewhere after your time in the 1st company, at which point you will carry the 'Veteran' honorific with you.

I would think the most common reason for leaving the 1st company for a battle company would be a promotion.

According to Insignium Astartes: "Some of the Battle-Brothers may have fought enough battles to earn Veteran status. These Marines may continue to serve with the Tactical Squad for a short time but eventually they will be promoted to special duties (see Command Squad) or advanced to the First Veteran Company."

Veteran Sergeants are presumably sent back down from the 1st Company, since in days of yore Terminator Honours was an in-game upgrade which Sergeants could take and fluffwise only 1st company veterans are trained in Terminator armour.

@Orblivion - That's the conclusion I was aware of, however this 'Veteran-Sergeant Iaptus' (and others I've come across) had me wondering.

@Gashrog - Now, I was under the illussion that one had to have been promoted to Sergeant first, before heading to the 1st company, but I suppose it's not inconceivable that a Line Trooper could be promoted to Veteran before Sergeant and go into the 1st Company. Therefore, is it possible for a Veteran (Not Veteran-Sergeant[i]) to move back down to a Battle-Company?

As I understood it, Veterans are assigned to other companies on an as-need basis, and the full 1st company rarely fights together as a full fighting force. This is because a Chapter is usually spread across the galaxy on different missions and so committing their entire 1st company to one offensive would not only mean that the other companies would lack their support, but also mean that they might lose all their veterans (basically everyone eligible to replace senior staff lost in conflicts) if things go sour.

However, they will do it if the chapter deems a threat terrible enough. The most notable cases of this are when the Tyranids invaded Macragge and Baal; the entire first companies of the Ultramarines and Blood Angels respectively had to fight as a cohesive force, since if they lost there wouldn't BE a chapter left.

The Dark Angels seems to be the sole exception to this, although it might be because they have way more than the prescribe "100" limit on their veterans. That and probably because anything worth the Deathwing's attention would probably mean they're going leeroy jenkins on a Fallen somewhere, rather than it be an actual tactical thing they have to do.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
As I understood it, Veterans are assigned to other companies on an as-need basis, and the full 1st company rarely fights together as a full fighting force. This is because a Chapter is usually spread across the galaxy on different missions and so committing their entire 1st company to one offensive would not only mean that the other companies would lack their support, but also mean that they might lose all their veterans (basically everyone eligible to replace senior staff lost in conflicts) if things go sour.

However, they will do it if the chapter deems a threat terrible enough. The most notable cases of this are when the Tyranids invaded Macragge and Baal; the entire first companies of the Ultramarines and Blood Angels respectively had to fight as a cohesive force, since if they lost there wouldn't BE a chapter left.

The Dark Angels seems to be the sole exception to this, although it might be because they have way more than the prescribe "100" limit on their veterans. That and probably because anything worth the Deathwing's attention would probably mean they're going leeroy jenkins on a Fallen somewhere, rather than it be an actual tactical thing they have to do.

This is true, but this is typically done in squads or combat squads, not lone Veterans. A Veteran sergeant commanding a standard assault squad indicates, to me, that he no longer serves in the 1st company and has instead taken on a command role in a battle company. However, he still earned Veteran status and carries that with him.

I assumed that the veteran squads are not set and are only made when requested by a company captain, so if a Captain only requires a veteran sergeant, they'd just assign someone to that squad for the duration of the campaign.

I think that once you hit veteran and go to the first company, unless you are on the command track (aka sarge) you are going to stay there. The one exception I could think of are the veterans who make up the command squad. These guys are part of the line companies, but not sergeants.

There is some precedent for marines passing on promotions. IIRC Sgt. Talion chooses to remain a scout sergeant, even though he could probably be a captain of his own company at this point. But he is really good at being a scout sarge, so it’s in the best interest of the chapter to keep him there.

At least in the older codices(4th edition IIRC), it was practice to sometimes give a marine an honorary membership in the 1st company. He would have veteran status, but he wasn't actually a member of the 1st company. I was under the impression that this was what Terminator Honors represented.

But in general the way each chapter handles its senior members is fairly fluid, and unique to each chapter most likely. Its possible that for some marines getting into the 1st is an honor, but its also a dead end as far as promotions are concerned.

Quite the opposite to a dead end actually. In older fluff, it was said many Captains were once 1st company, and in more recent fluff, Captain Fabian, of the Ultramarines 3rd company, served in the 3rd, was promoted to the 1st, and promoted to Captain of the 3rd on the way to save Macragge. Not only was he promoted, but his life was saved by not being in the Polar defence fortress when it all went down hill.

codex says everyone in the 1st company/captain

non-codex marines say screw that and do whatevs.

Far as I understand the first is mainly deployed in smaller groups as specialist troops as and when required such as terminators for boarding, vanguards, or sternguard who augment certain abilities..

Very rarely as a full force and often many captains have prior first service before the best sgts and members are groomed and chosen as future captains and later on chapter masters.

That's how I understand it working anyway

Don't think about what Nick Kyme writes too much as you'll only upset/annoy yourself

@Spyro_Killer - Heh, I actually rather like his books. I can understand a Veteran-Sergeant leading an Assault Squad - I was just wondering if there was a precedent for Veterans to serve in a line Company in other capacities (Temporary/Experienced/Instructers etc.).

In DoWII, Tarkus has Terminator honors, but its not specified whether or not he ever served in the 1st.

Another thing to consider would be the position of the chapter. If they've just taken a pounding (say, lost 300-500 marines) then I personally would have some of the survivors of the 1st distributed into the other companies to make better use of their experience.

Coming from a military background, specifically infantry and SOF and having descent background knowledge on the Heresy mostly, it would seem unwise if not foolish to not have Veterans spread throughout all of the companies, to include Cadre for recruits and Aspirants. From my recollection of reading and listening to almost everything produced covering the Heresy that's how it seems to me most Legions conducted business.

As far as the few 40k novels I've read, it seems not much different. Keep in mind being a Veteran means more than simply being a hardened, experienced warrior, there's the irreplaceable wealth of knowledge and experience in all matters of life as an Astartes that comes with the territory. Losing a Veteran is more than losing a warrior, you're losing a potential role model and mentor for younger Astartes. While most Veterans will be concentrated in the first company, you still need a few Veterans and Veteran Sergeants mentoring and leading the junior Sergeants and Battle Brothers in all of the Companies, not just the first.

I remember hearing about the old Terminator Honors upgrade years ago, anyone care to share what exactly it did?

IIRC it was +1A and it allowed you to purchase additional upgrades from the Terminator Honor's wargear list(which was Terminator armor, artificer armor, iron halos, etc...)

Wouldn't Veteran status describe any Marine who had been around the block? Not necessarily a member of the first company. Obviously there will be veteran marines in each company, a Sergeant almost certainly would need to be a veteran. The old GW fluff completely defies logic, and not much thought was put into it. By just earning the role of tactical marine a marine would have to have been a veteran of countless battles. Is there any historical reference for any army ever grouping all of it's most experienced soldiers into one company? Besides the point, Dark Angels veterans don't belong to the deathwing, they belong to their company.

Warden wrote:
Is there any historical reference for any army ever grouping all of it's most experienced soldiers into one company? Besides the point, Dark Angels veterans don't belong to the deathwing, they belong to their company.

It is deceptive that there are 10 discrete companies because in reality, most companies do not fight as a 'unit'.

The 2nd-5th companies do and are generally commanded by their captains. Their captain and veteran sergeants are by necessity, Veterans (capital V) who will have served in the first company. There will be at least 1 Veteran Sergeant in each company, whose role it is to take command if the Captain bites it (re- Idaeus dies and Ventris is promoted) and to command the demicompany that the captain isn't in (in the absence of a chaplain)
Because the Veteran sergeants are placed within the battle company before being promoted to Captain, they will have had time to fight alongside the men there and build bonds of trust.
It won't be like a 1st company vet coming in to take over the company, it will be like one of their own left to serve with the 1st, returned to serve as a squadleader, then was promoted- a promotion from within the company.

If you think of the first company as an elite club you won't be far wrong. Sure it has a captain, and he outranks other captains. But in practice, the men in that company will be assigned to battle companies to provide support to them, they don't just hang out at the 1st company barracks.
Where the 1st company captain does take the field, he will be in charge unless the chapter master is present. He will likely bring a few veteran squads with him and a battle company will support his actions. In this way he could keep training a new Captain, who was probably one of his 1st company veteran sergeants not so long ago, as he takes on a new role.
His role as a teacher within the company would be to pass down skills that are expected of veterans- use of terminator armour, infiltration using power armour (it's noisy!) force multiplication, special ammunition etc.
But you don't get promoted to the 1st company to learn to be awesome, you get promoted because you are awesome.

The reserve companies are just as loose as the 1st, they will be assigned to a battlecompany as needed for support or to provide experience.
At other times, elements will be assigned to guard the fleet assets from boarders and so on.

Presumably;

A standard Battle Company squad loses their sergeant. There are no members of that battle company designation who are deemed suitable by the company captain to take over the squad, so he requests a member of the 1st company to be moved to his company. This may be a former sergeant of the same squad, or it may be a Veteran who has been recommend ed by his squad sergeant to the 1st Captain who then offers that marine the position if deemed suitable.

OR

A sergeant of a particular squad has served that long and with such distinction that he is awarded Veteran status and ofered a place in the first company. He however, through ambition (likes to lead his squad), love for his company or duty, elects to stay on as Sergeant, but is awarded the white helm of the first company.

@Deadshot - I'm inclined towards your explanation. I'd imagine that placing the whole of the Chapters most skilled warriors in one company and then keeping them closeted amongst themselves is inherently counter-productive towards the Chapter as a whole. In this case, as per my original post, the Company in question is the Salamanders 6th Company which, in addition to Captain Drakgaard, Veteran Sergeant Ze'tok and the rest of the Command Squad Veterans also has at least one other Veteran Sergeant in tow, leading an assault squad. That said, I have just remembered that this squad was in fact seconded from 4th Company, but that should make no difference as it is still indicative of Veteran Sergeants leading standard line-company squads.

The 'default'promotion route for a marine is:

Scout
Devastator Marine
Assault Marine
Tactical Marine
Veteran (in command squad or 1st company)
Sergeant
Captain

There may be individual squad members in a 'line company' tactical squad good enough to qualify as 'veteran' but not many. The Sergeant, however, is usually a veteran with 1st company service.

The 1st company is second only to the 10th in how mutable its numbers are, because promotion into it is done purely on ability, not just the need to fill a gap. Since the 1st rarely fights as a whole force, it's generally fighting as detached squads or combat squads attached to a battle company, so a one squad being understrength isn't the end of the world.



The Dark Angels are an exception for all sorts of reasons. Firstly they ignore the normal upper maximum of a 1st company's theoretical size, secondly they deploy in force far more often, and thirdly they don't promote purely on competence.

A Deathwing marine, on average, is less competent than a first company veteran of another chapter. That's not suggesting that the dark angels are lesser than any other chapter (far from it) but they only promote people with the right knowledge and psychological makeup. There will be marines of extreme combat skill who never progress beyond the line companies because the interrogator chaplains don't think they are ready, as they say, to handle the truth. By comparison, there are examples of marines who've been promoted into the Ravenwing and Deathwing as an expedience as they've been caught up in The Hunt and witnessed something by accident.

Which is why Dark Angels have the "company veterans" squad as a thing.

locarno24 wrote:
The 'default'promotion route for a marine is:

Scout
Devastator Marine
Assault Marine
Tactical Marine
Veteran (in command squad or 1st company)
Sergeant
Captain

There may be individual squad members in a 'line company' tactical squad good enough to qualify as 'veteran' but not many. The Sergeant, however, is usually a veteran with 1st company service.

The 1st company is second only to the 10th in how mutable its numbers are, because promotion into it is done purely on ability, not just the need to fill a gap. Since the 1st rarely fights as a whole force, it's generally fighting as detached squads or combat squads attached to a battle company, so a one squad being understrength isn't the end of the world.



The Dark Angels are an exception for all sorts of reasons. Firstly they ignore the normal upper maximum of a 1st company's theoretical size, secondly they deploy in force far more often, and thirdly they don't promote purely on competence.

A Deathwing marine, on average, is less competent than a first company veteran of another chapter. That's not suggesting that the dark angels are lesser than any other chapter (far from it) but they only promote people with the right knowledge and psychological makeup. There will be marines of extreme combat skill who never progress beyond the line companies because the interrogator chaplains don't think they are ready, as they say, to handle the truth. By comparison, there are examples of marines who've been promoted into the Ravenwing and Deathwing as an expedience as they've been caught up in The Hunt and witnessed something by accident.

Which is why Dark Angels have the "company veterans" squad as a thing.

That could be considered true in the 5th Ed, where all Sergeants were "Veteran Sergeants" and shared a statline with Vets. Now however you have a clear difference between Sergeant (A1 and Ld8) and Vet Sergeants (A2 Ld 9). You can have sergeants who are not Veterans either. such as Thaddeus in Dawn of War (and Aramus/Force Commander in the DoW2 Chris Roberson novel), who is(are) only 40sh