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 greatbigtree wrote:
The Battle Demi-Company, not Gladius, gives free transports to mediocre units. It helps with target saturation, but is only useful for a swam strategy... with Marines.

I acknowledge that it seems to do well enough at Tournaments, but in our Garage gaming group, nobody takes it any more because it is regularly beaten. The benefit of free transports for a crap-ton of basic duders has not been successful in our group of 5 "regular" gamers.

I think it's stupid, but not horrible to face off against.

Just wondering. What type of missions do you normally play? Eternal War? Maelstrom? LVO or NOVA format?

 Bobthehero wrote:
So the IG can have free CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORTS?

Hell I'd even take free chimeras..

Traditio wrote:

 FL5 wrote:
The battle company gladius is great. Fantastic, even. I love mine. And, yes, it is powerful. There is no denying that. Of course, there is also no denying that space marines were powerful before, and there are non-gladius builds that continue to be powerful. For me, though, the best thing about it is that I can bring power armoured marines - fluffily the backbone of a space marine army - and not insta-lose anymore.

This. This. A thousand times this.

This is what I think that people are butt hurt over, and as I said, I don't feel their pain.


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TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
Asking how many times you've been tabled by a BC is a subjective question

No, it isn't. It's a question with an empirically verifiable, objective answer, in particular, one which can be given in the form of a number. For example: "0," "1," "2," "3," "4," etc.

,

Just because a GSF can't obliterate any opponent within 1-2 turn sof shooting like Eldar/Tau can, doesn't mean it's automatically underpowered.

Some armies, such as Daemons, will literally auto-lose upon deployment against a Gladius, simply because we have no way to deal with that amount of armour - especially when it's 'free'.

 greatbigtree wrote:
The Battle Demi-Company, not Gladius, gives free transports to mediocre units. It helps with target saturation, but is only useful for a swam strategy... with Marines.

I acknowledge that it seems to do well enough at Tournaments, but in our Garage gaming group, nobody takes it any more because it is regularly beaten. The benefit of free transports for a crap-ton of basic duders has not been successful in our group of 5 "regular" gamers.

I think it's stupid, but not horrible to face off against.

The bolded is simply mistaken. In order to get free transports, you have to bring two demi-companies, i.e., a full battle company.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Just because a GSF can't obliterate any opponent within 1-2 turn sof shooting like Eldar/Tau can, doesn't mean it's automatically underpowered

I didn't claim that it's underpowered. I simply said that it's not unfair.

Some armies, such as Daemons, will literally auto-lose upon deployment against a Gladius, simply because we have no way to deal with that amount of armour - especially when it's 'free'.

Don't demons rely heavily on summoning? On...you know...getting free units throughout the course of the game?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grand.Master. wrote:I wish a single Gladius would give free transports to full-sized squads. That would have supported a legitimately fluffy build, at least somewhat redressed the weakness of playing the demi-company without going overboard, and been a marketing tool for GW. That's win all around.

10 full squads with minimum HQ choices would be 1580 points. That pretty much would mean that you can't take anything else, especially if you upgrade the transports.

Why shouldn't I be able to take a battle company with a first company in an 1850 points game?

Bwaaahahaha.

My orks would like to loot some of your free transports.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Bwaaahahaha.

My orks would like to loot some of your free transports.

Boys are 6 points per model. Gretchins are roughly 3 points per model.

What's the problem? How many objective secured models can you get for 70 points?

Traditio wrote:

Boys are 6 points per model. Gretchins are roughly 3 points per model.

What's the problem? How many objective secured models can you get for 70 points?

Ever played with boyz and gretchin vs tac marines with free transports ?
Just look at the tournament results or ask any ork player what is wrong with 6 point boyz and 3 point grots

Traditio wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Bwaaahahaha.

My orks would like to loot some of your free transports.

Boys are 6 points per model. Gretchins are roughly 3 points per model.

What's the problem? How many objective secured models can you get for 70 points?

When it comes to objective grabbing and potential target engagement, the number of units matter more than models. An Ork army will typically max out at 12 obsec units, bearing usually a third to a half that in most lists. They're often big, with lots of models, but the actual number of units they have to hold or contest objectives with is relatively small, and likewise the number of targets they can engage at any one time with said units.

A Marine army won't have the same number of models, but for what a kitted Ork Boyz mob of 30 models costs to deploy that single element of maneuver, a Space Marine army can potentially bring up to 4, and that's without free transports, with free transports you may be looking at up to 6 maneuver elements to the Orks 1, or even more if you're talking 'Eavy Armor mob.

So yeah, the number of models can be much larger for the Orks, but 30 dudes camping 1 objective is far less useful than ten dudes and two transports camping 4, or twenty dudes and four transports camping 6.

Traditio wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Just because a GSF can't obliterate any opponent within 1-2 turn sof shooting like Eldar/Tau can, doesn't mean it's automatically underpowered

I didn't claim that it's underpowered. I simply said that it's not unfair.

Some armies, such as Daemons, will literally auto-lose upon deployment against a Gladius, simply because we have no way to deal with that amount of armour - especially when it's 'free'.

Don't demons rely heavily on summoning? On...you know...getting free units throughout the course of the game?

Summoning is nowhere near the automatic advantage that free Razorbacks/Drop Pods are.

For one thing, Summoning requires a large investment of WC's. If the Daemons are doing nothing but making more of themselves, they're not actively killing anything! Each attempt at Summoning is literally using up the resources for at least 1-2 Witchfire/augment/hexes that the Daemon army is now incapable of casting.
For an army that relies very heavily on augments/hexes to boost otherwise mediocre units, that's a huge trade-off. Couple that with the fact that outside of less than half a dozen options, the only shooting a Daemon army can muster is also psychic based.

Summoning is also a risk, as the fact you require typically 6-7 dice to ensure a successful casting is giving you about a 26-30'ish% chance of Perils. So while Pink Horrors may not care much, it become far, far riskier if you're attempting any summoning with your typically 130-160pts Heralds, or worse yet, your 250-300+pts DP's/Greater Daemons!

At it's most effective, a Daemon army will try to summon 1-2 units/turn max. Khorne Daemonkin have a similar type of mechanic, and no one whines about Blood Tithe summons being unfair/OP as gak.

Of course, I know it's still cool to hate on Daemon players, ever since that one summer back in '08.

Traditio wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grand.Master. wrote:I wish a single Gladius would give free transports to full-sized squads. That would have supported a legitimately fluffy build, at least somewhat redressed the weakness of playing the demi-company without going overboard, and been a marketing tool for GW. That's win all around.

10 full squads with minimum HQ choices would be 1580 points. That pretty much would mean that you can't take anything else, especially if you upgrade the transports.

Why shouldn't I be able to take a battle company with a first company in an 1850 points game?

At the very least, it should have been mandatory to take full 10 man Tactical Squads.

As it stands, the so-called "tax" Marines pay is only second fiddle to Necrons & Khornekin in terms of your actual 'bag for buck'... At 1850, with only 5 man squads, there's still plenty of pts left over to kit out the Captain, and fill out the Tacs & Devs with Grav/Melta.
Add in Scouts as the cheap mandatory Auxiliary, and now you've also got a bunch of Infiltrators for adding even more table control/area denial at deployment.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Summoning is nowhere near the automatic advantage that free Razorbacks/Drop Pods are.

For one thing, Summoning requires a large investment of WC's. If the Daemons are doing nothing but making more of themselves, they're not actively killing anything! Each attempt at Summoning is literally using up the resources for at least 1-2 Witchfire/augment/hexes that the Daemon army is now incapable of casting.
For an army that relies very heavily on augments/hexes to boost otherwise mediocre units, that's a huge trade-off. Couple that with the fact that outside of less than half a dozen options, the only shooting a Daemon army can muster is also psychic based.

Summoning is also a risk, as the fact you require typically 6-7 dice to ensure a successful casting is giving you about a 26-30'ish% chance of Perils. So while Pink Horrors may not care much, it become far, far riskier if you're attempting any summoning with your typically 130-160pts Heralds, or worse yet, your 250-300+pts DP's/Greater Daemons!

At it's most effective, a Daemon army will try to summon 1-2 units/turn max. Khorne Daemonkin have a similar type of mechanic, and no one whines about Blood Tithe summons being unfair/OP as gak.

Of course, I know it's still cool to hate on Daemon players, ever since that one summer back in '08.

The common criticism against the gladius strike force battle company is that it involves "free stuff." If you want to complain about free points, then complain about free points. You should be insisting that all summoning should be removed from the rulebooks and codices (whether be khorne demonkind, demons, or otherwise).

1850 points should be 1850 points should be 1850 points. Right?

I'll leave the transports at home if you agree not to summon anything. Seems fair to me.

You can talk about the downsides to summoning all you want, but the simple fact is that summoning means that you get "free" points on the field.

At the very least, it should have been mandatory to take full 10 man Tactical Squads.

As it stands, the so-called "tax" Marines pay is only second fiddle to Necrons & Khornekin in terms of your actual 'bag for buck'... At 1850, with only 5 man squads, there's still plenty of pts left over to kit out the Captain, and fill out the Tacs & Devs with Grav/Melta.
Add in Scouts as the cheap mandatory Auxiliary, and now you've also got a bunch of Infiltrators for adding even more table control/area denial at deployment.

I don't really see this as problematic. I see this as even less problematic if we aren't going for optimization.

What's it to you if I want to take Pedro Kantor, honor guard, sternguard and free rhinos?

Increasing the troop tax means less customization. I want customization. GW specifically designed the battle company to allow me to customize.

Traditio wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Summoning is nowhere near the automatic advantage that free Razorbacks/Drop Pods are.

For one thing, Summoning requires a large investment of WC's. If the Daemons are doing nothing but making more of themselves, they're not actively killing anything! Each attempt at Summoning is literally using up the resources for at least 1-2 Witchfire/augment/hexes that the Daemon army is now incapable of casting.
For an army that relies very heavily on augments/hexes to boost otherwise mediocre units, that's a huge trade-off. Couple that with the fact that outside of less than half a dozen options, the only shooting a Daemon army can muster is also psychic based.

Summoning is also a risk, as the fact you require typically 6-7 dice to ensure a successful casting is giving you about a 26-30'ish% chance of Perils. So while Pink Horrors may not care much, it become far, far riskier if you're attempting any summoning with your typically 130-160pts Heralds, or worse yet, your 250-300+pts DP's/Greater Daemons!

At it's most effective, a Daemon army will try to summon 1-2 units/turn max. Khorne Daemonkin have a similar type of mechanic, and no one whines about Blood Tithe summons being unfair/OP as gak.

Of course, I know it's still cool to hate on Daemon players, ever since that one summer back in '08.

The common criticism against the gladius strike force battle company is that it involves "free stuff." If you want to complain about free points, then complain about free points. You should be insisting that all summoning should be removed from the rulebooks and codices (whether be khorne demonkind, demons, or otherwise).

1850 points should be 1850 points should be 1850 points. Right?

I'll leave the transports at home if you agree not to summon anything. Seems fair to me.

You can talk about the downsides to summoning all you want, but the simple fact is that summoning means that you get "free" points on the field.

At the very least, it should have been mandatory to take full 10 man Tactical Squads.

As it stands, the so-called "tax" Marines pay is only second fiddle to Necrons & Khornekin in terms of your actual 'bag for buck'... At 1850, with only 5 man squads, there's still plenty of pts left over to kit out the Captain, and fill out the Tacs & Devs with Grav/Melta.
Add in Scouts as the cheap mandatory Auxiliary, and now you've also got a bunch of Infiltrators for adding even more table control/area denial at deployment.

I don't really see this as problematic. I see this as even less problematic if we aren't going for optimization.

What's it to you if I want to take Pedro Kantor, honor guard, sternguard and free rhinos?

Increasing the troop tax means less customization. I want customization. GW specifically designed the battle company to allow me to customize.

The point is flying over you. It's not the fact it's free, it's free Ob Sec.

Gladius just has to out last the opponent and get the objectives. It also dictates the battlefield, because if you need an objective to claim a point and they have an objective with ObSec you've got to decide whether that Objective is worth dedicating fire power too.

Summoning is nowhere near Gladius because you can kill the Psykers and you can still get the objectives, not to mention that they have to roll for the powers, give up Cursed Earth and have to manifest the powers. The Gladius just gives you the units without doing anything (aside take the units that can take the transports) ie, there is less involved in the process of free points.

Traditio wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Summoning is nowhere near the automatic advantage that free Razorbacks/Drop Pods are.

For one thing, Summoning requires a large investment of WC's. If the Daemons are doing nothing but making more of themselves, they're not actively killing anything! Each attempt at Summoning is literally using up the resources for at least 1-2 Witchfire/augment/hexes that the Daemon army is now incapable of casting.
For an army that relies very heavily on augments/hexes to boost otherwise mediocre units, that's a huge trade-off. Couple that with the fact that outside of less than half a dozen options, the only shooting a Daemon army can muster is also psychic based.

Summoning is also a risk, as the fact you require typically 6-7 dice to ensure a successful casting is giving you about a 26-30'ish% chance of Perils. So while Pink Horrors may not care much, it become far, far riskier if you're attempting any summoning with your typically 130-160pts Heralds, or worse yet, your 250-300+pts DP's/Greater Daemons!

At it's most effective, a Daemon army will try to summon 1-2 units/turn max. Khorne Daemonkin have a similar type of mechanic, and no one whines about Blood Tithe summons being unfair/OP as gak.

Of course, I know it's still cool to hate on Daemon players, ever since that one summer back in '08.

The common criticism against the gladius strike force battle company is that it involves "free stuff." If you want to complain about free points, then complain about free points. You should be insisting that all summoning should be removed from the rulebooks and codices (whether be khorne demonkind, demons, or otherwise).

1850 points should be 1850 points should be 1850 points. Right?

I'll leave the transports at home if you agree not to summon anything. Seems fair to me.

You can talk about the downsides to summoning all you want, but the simple fact is that summoning means that you get "free" points on the field.

At the very least, it should have been mandatory to take full 10 man Tactical Squads.

As it stands, the so-called "tax" Marines pay is only second fiddle to Necrons & Khornekin in terms of your actual 'bag for buck'... At 1850, with only 5 man squads, there's still plenty of pts left over to kit out the Captain, and fill out the Tacs & Devs with Grav/Melta.
Add in Scouts as the cheap mandatory Auxiliary, and now you've also got a bunch of Infiltrators for adding even more table control/area denial at deployment.

I don't really see this as problematic. I see this as even less problematic if we aren't going for optimization.

What's it to you if I want to take Pedro Kantor, honor guard, sternguard and free rhinos?

Increasing the troop tax means less customization. I want customization. GW specifically designed the battle company to allow me to customize.

You seem to be missing the point that most tournaments use Maelstorm. Firepower doesn't necessarily matter if your racking up points on grabbing objectives. The massive amount of transports and Objective secure gives you a massive edge. A GSF finished 3rd at the LVO.

If the mission is table your opponent, then yea it's not the best list but few tournaments if any use that format.

Traditio wrote:
Boys are 6 points per model. Gretchins are roughly 3 points per model.

What's the problem? How many objective secured models can you get for 70 points?

Okay, what about Sisters? Could we get free transports?
I am sure that would not be overpowered, our models are 12 points but with T3 and no immunity to morale and no chapter tactics…

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Okay, what about Sisters? Could we get free transports?
I am sure that would not be overpowered, our models are 12 points but with T3 and no immunity to morale and no chapter tactics…

If sisters of battle got free transports, I don't necessarily think that this would be unfair. Those of you who are playing with older codices simply aren't grasping, I think, the fact that these free transports come at the cost of having to field certain units.

Those free transports would come at the price of you fielding units that you wouldn't necessarily run in a CAD...or at all, except for the fact that you're getting the free transports.

It's not like you'd be able to spam penance engines and get free rhinos. You know what I'm saying?

I knew it wouldn't be long before a SoB player would rear their ugly head and complain about their army.

Traditio wrote:
Those of you who are playing with older codices simply aren't grasping, I think, the fact that these free transports come at the cost of having to field certain units.

Those free transports would come at the price of you fielding units that you wouldn't necessarily run in a CAD...or at all, except for the fact that you're getting the free transports.

I don't think you understand the Sisters of Battle codex. We don't have variety. Do you think tactical squads are bad and you would rather use something else? Well, we have to use battle sisters squads because they are our only troop choice. And giving them a free rhino/immolator is a HUGE boost to them.
The only Sisters choice that could potentially be deemed a “tax” would be the Celestian (but those are an elite choice, so it won't require many of them, and even then Celestians with a free transport becomes WAY better than BSS without one), Canoness (but HQ so will require one at most, and a single free Immolator pays her full cost back), and maybe Repentia but they certainly would not be part of the formation.
Really, try to come up with ANY unit requirement for a Sisters version of the Gladius Strike Force that is not a direct, huge boost to Sisters of Battle, and we'll talk. And even if we don't take the Objective Secured stuff into account, just from all the free transports.

Traditio wrote:

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Okay, what about Sisters? Could we get free transports?
I am sure that would not be overpowered, our models are 12 points but with T3 and no immunity to morale and no chapter tactics…

If sisters of battle got free transports, I don't necessarily think that this would be unfair. Those of you who are playing with older codices simply aren't grasping, I think, the fact that these free transports come at the cost of having to field certain units.

Those free transports would come at the price of you fielding units that you wouldn't necessarily run in a CAD...or at all, except for the fact that you're getting the free transports.

It's not like you'd be able to spam penance engines and get free rhinos. You know what I'm saying?

A GSF got third in the LVO one of the biggest 40k tournaments. 295 players all bringing the strongest list they could and marines got third. Only Eldar managed and we all know Eldar is in another league. It's a very strong list in objective games.

Oh,.sisters don't complain about there army, sisters are actually rather competitive due to.5 girl units in retributors and dominions in immolators. Sisters complain.about there lack of support which you'd had to have the empathy of a weather.beaten rock to not understand.

What your.not.understanding traditio is that those of us playing older codexes don't see these units your forced to take as taxes. And they shall know no fear is one of the most powerful rules in the game for troops, it almost total bypasses an entire mechanic of the game. Chapter tactics can be incredibly powerful and the weapon options available (read: Grav gun) make csms and dark Eldar blush. To use these "tax" units as justification just seems quite frankly greedy when I look from the persepctive of my dark Eldar codex when the units your complaining about don't seem bad to begin with.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Traditio wrote:
Those of you who are playing with older codices simply aren't grasping, I think, the fact that these free transports come at the cost of having to field certain units.

Those free transports would come at the price of you fielding units that you wouldn't necessarily run in a CAD...or at all, except for the fact that you're getting the free transports.

I don't think you understand the Sisters of Battle codex. We don't have variety. Do you think tactical squads are bad and you would rather use something else? Well, we have to use battle sisters squads because they are our only troop choice. And giving them a free rhino/immolator is a HUGE boost to them.
The only Sisters choice that could potentially be deemed a “tax” would be the Celestian (but those are an elite choice, so it won't require many of them, and even then Celestians with a free transport becomes WAY better than BSS without one), Canoness (but HQ so will require one at most, and a single free Immolator pays her full cost back), and maybe Repentia but they certainly would not be part of the formation.
Really, try to come up with ANY unit requirement for a Sisters version of the Gladius Strike Force that is not a direct, huge boost to Sisters of Battle, and we'll talk. And even if we don't take the Objective Secured stuff into account, just from all the free transports.

Tactical Squads are bad because you can't double up on Special Weapons. Once you do that, nobody will complain about them.

It is literally the only thing they need.

Traditio wrote:

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Okay, what about Sisters? Could we get free transports?
I am sure that would not be overpowered, our models are 12 points but with T3 and no immunity to morale and no chapter tactics…

If sisters of battle got free transports, I don't necessarily think that this would be unfair. Those of you who are playing with older codices simply aren't grasping, I think, the fact that these free transports come at the cost of having to field certain units.

Those free transports would come at the price of you fielding units that you wouldn't necessarily run in a CAD...or at all, except for the fact that you're getting the free transports.

It's not like you'd be able to spam penance engines and get free rhinos. You know what I'm saying?

You keep using the worst possible transport as proof that the Gladius Cheese Force is nothing that special... Sure, if all you take are Rhinos, then it's 0 fun for those armies such as Daemons, Necrons, Tyranids, etc... who have an extremely difficult just handling MSU vehicle spam in general.

I've *never* faced a Gladius however that only took Rhinos. Typically you see Razorbacks and/or a combination of Razorbacks + Drop Pods w/Deathwind launchers.

You still have pts to take things like;
4x Tacs w/Meltagun + Combi-Melta (each w/free Razorback)
2x Tacs w/Flamer (free Razorback)
2x Assault Squads w/2 Flamers (Drop Pod + Deathwind launcher)
2x Dev Squads w/2 Grav Cannon + amp (free Razorback)

That's why people hate the Gladius. Depending on how bare bones you keep your HQ's, half those 'Backs will even sport the twin-plas/las turrets for added utility. Throw in either a cheap Scout or Sternguard auxiliary to taste.
Or else you can skimp on the upgrades across the Tac squads, and instead kit out your Captain with the Shield Eternal & give him a Command Squad of Gravbikers... Or drop a couple of free transports and take GravCents.
AND you get Chapter Tactics to top it all off... Depending on which you take, it can become even more of a nightmare to face. (IH's & Scars w/Khan are the nastiest IMHO)

There's just too much to kill before it scores so many objective pts, that the only way to win against it is to go for a complete wipe out. Maybe Eldar/Tau can possibly manage it within 4-6 turns, but literally no other army can 100% table that many targets
And if you're playing a book like 'Nids or CSM's or Daemons or Orks? Forget it. There's no point in playing as those books are either too badly outclassed to begin with, or else require a tailored list just to try and compete.

The Gladius' bonuses are so far beyond things like Summoning that it isn't even funny anymore... Maybe if my Summoned units came loaded with Scatlasers/Grav and/or could Run+Charge the same turn they're summoned, etc... Then yeah, Summoning would be equally as gross as (especially) optimised GSF is. (and probably more so!)
But Summoning is literally putting down at most 100pts of T3/4 dudes with only a 5++, who can't do anything except Run in their Shooting phase, and who's damage output is limited almost entirely to punching things in assaults! (Flamers can shoot S4/ap4 templates, while Turbo Boosting Screamers can inflict D3/S4 hits)

Besides, if the thought of Clown Car scares you that much, note that Codex Marines are THE best army in the game at nuking such a like! (hint, Drop Pods, especially 'free' ones, are your very best friend!)

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tactical Squads are bad

With a free Razorback included? They are not bad. They get their one special weapon, and the Razorback weapons. Way better than equivalent points in SoB.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Traditio wrote:
It's not like you'd be able to spam penance engines and get free rhinos. You know what I'm saying?

Damn. I missed that. Penitent engine as something Sisters would like to spam? What the hell? Why? Just why?

I'm making a list right now that's basically Razor Backs w/ Assault cannons filled with either Tac squads w/ grav weapons backed by grav devs in drop pods to target threats. It's not SM it's DA but I'll post my results.
My main opponents are CSM, Nids, Necrons, Tau, Eldar, Demons, Dark Eldar. I'll keep this list going for awhile to see how it fairs with demon factories, flyrants, decurion, tau firepower, and eldar bikes.

Updates forthcoming.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tactical Squads are bad

With a free Razorback included? They are not bad. They get their one special weapon, and the Razorback weapons. Way better than equivalent points in SoB.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Traditio wrote:
It's not like you'd be able to spam penance engines and get free rhinos. You know what I'm saying?

Damn. I missed that. Penitent engine as something Sisters would like to spam? What the hell? Why? Just why?

Nice way to cut off the rest of my statement.

NO, the free Tactical Squad with the Razorback is nice. Tactical Squads are a tax until they get to purchase two Special Weapons. If Space Wolves had the same bonuses in their mega formation, it'd be completely stupid.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tactical Squads are bad

With a free Razorback included? They are not bad. They get their one special weapon, and the Razorback weapons. Way better than equivalent points in SoB.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Traditio wrote:
It's not like you'd be able to spam penance engines and get free rhinos. You know what I'm saying?

Damn. I missed that. Penitent engine as something Sisters would like to spam? What the hell? Why? Just why?

Nice way to cut off the rest of my statement.

NO, the free Tactical Squad with the Razorback is nice. Tactical Squads are a tax until they get to purchase two Special Weapons. If Space Wolves had the same bonuses in their mega formation, it'd be completely stupid.

So you actually are implying that Sisters with free transports would be utterly broken?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tactical Squads are a tax until they get to purchase two Special Weapons.

So you agree that they are way better point for point than BSS but still call them a tax?

I play space marines on a regular basis. I play with Grey Knights, so I'm not using an older codex. And yet, I still dispute your point. Devastator squads and tactical squads aren't useless as you would have us believe. Devastators with a free razorback for cover/ extra firepower can be hard to kill if they are at the back and you've got a load of tac squads coming at you- you have to focus on the immediate thread. Also, being Grey Knights, I don't have much anti-tank beside the deadknight-if my opponent were to take 5 obsec vehicles, that hadn't even take points away from his army (and yes I did hear your points on over costed units, but I just don't believe its true compared to the older codices, which are the majority of GW's army range so shouldn't be ignored) I would cry.

Traditio wrote:
I don't really have much sympathy for guard or the CSM. Both codices have the ability to spam high strength, low AP pie plates.

I will grant that the "base" CSM troop deserves a boost, though.

Ok, before anything else... What high-strength, low AP pie plates can CSMs spam?

We literally only have 2 models with such a thing, the absolutely terrible and overcosted Defiler and the short ranged Vindicator, which we can't even take in squadrons to get cool bonuses like you loyalists.
Both are heavy support. If CSMs can spam pie plates then what do you call a SM CAD list with 9 Vindicators? Ultra-mega spam?


Also you get SPAMMABLE FREE OBSEC VEHICLES from the full Battle Company. In a meta that favours MSU objective grabbers, few armies do it better than a Battle Company with their 8 min-marine Obsec squads and their 8 Obsec Razorbacks or more commonly Drop Pods. All 6 objective markers are now covered in 3 Obsec units each, or at the very least 1 Obsec with 2+ others ready to swoop in if its destroyed.

A Gladius Strike Force took 3rd place at the LVO which featured nearly 300 players. The only lists that beat it out were both Eldar armies with both being spam lists.

Please, tell me how an army that's not unfair managed to make the top three of one of, if not the, biggest 40K tournaments ever and fell short only of two lists from the army everyone knows is top dog.

I've noticed that the OP has yet to respond to any post mentioning the Gladius' tournament results, probably because they directly contradict the point he is making with hard factual evidence.

It's a troll thread, or simply not worth anyone's time trying to reason with him at this point. It's literally a room full of people on one side and 1 obstinate dude on the other.

Traditio wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
OP creates thread to defend how broken an army is.

People explain why its broken.

Gets defensive, dismisses anything not agreeing with the statement in the OP.

I'm sure this will go so well.

Vaktathi (as usual) is spot on. Tourney results indicate its strong. Piles of anecdotal evidence indicate its strong. Spending three minutes looking at how powerful it is by simply reading and doing some basic math indicates its strong.

You can maybe argue its not the single most powerful combination in the game, but its a hell of a lot of better than the overwhelming vast majority of builds, especially in codices not beginning with Eld, Nec, Tau or Space Marine.

I repeat my challenge:

Would anyone care to tell me about the last time that you got tabled by a battle company?

I'm waiting.

Essentially all I'm hearing from you people is: "But it's difficult to table it!"

Again, I repeat my challenge:

Why was nobody complaining, last codex, about the possibility of spamming assault marines and "free" drop pods or rhinos?

I don't think getting tabled is the only measure of how strong something is, especially as the strategy of this army is to win by objectives rather than by removing the other army from the table before the end of the game.

Arguably it makes for a more interesting loss than getting tabled.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW I have not played against (so not lost against, let alone been tabled by) the GSF, and I actually like the idea behind the formation, and don't think an army built this way is necessarily 'unfair' in general, though I am sure it does have some specific match ups that are unfair.