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Well, erm, this was negotiated. If Cameron gets his Remain vote, he'll have the perfect opportunity to test out his emergency brake (and immediately find out it is made of Blancmange)

I also saw That,


Seriously EU, do you not understand that as soon as you let Turkey in, the migrants will move west and turkey would have been paid for nothing.....

Uh, hate to break this to you, but they know.
They just want the feckless masses to be ignorant of that fact until it's too late....

 zedmeister wrote:
Looks like Spain is joining France in rattling sabres

That's why I love our government.

I mean, is there any practical reason why we would want Gibraltar? Beyond leaving jobless all those unemployed that live thanks to tobacco smuggling I mean.

The Gibraltar issue, much like the spiky walls in Ceuta and Melilla are a great source of hilarity, because if our government (any of them, doesn't matter if its left or right) wasnt so obsessed about "national prestige" and the "indissoluble unity of the kingdom" we would be way better.

But, they are idiots. And it really isn't their fault if most (basically any of them that is over 50) of our politicians were raised under an ultranationalistic dictatorship, they are just rolling with what they know.

But hey, if they do this, and the Brits kick our ass hard enough, a lot of places to enter the army will open, which will help with unemployment.

I'm not really confident about an army that hasnt won any non-civilwar conflict since the Napoleonic wars (well, you could count Morocco, but it was mostly thanks to the French)

I wouldn't worry to much about this, our government does this all the time.

It's le Reconquista stage z.

However there is more to it than that. It wasnt well known because it was censored in the press at the time but Blair sold Gibraltar to the Spanish for personal gain, and Spaoin paid, that is the actual root of the current spat. The Daily Mail followed the story back in 2005, the rest of the press did not so it was just written off as 'Daily Fail' lies. This is actually a common enough occurance at the time. I even put out a thread on this here some years ago trying to track the story via the foreign press. Blair was notorious for using tghe Official Secrets act to mask policy, he made more censorship orders in his first term than the entirity of Thatcher and Majors governments put together, despite Thatcher having the Cold War to deal with. I strongly suspected at the time that a censorship order was placed on the Daily Mail also because despite the importance of the story it appeared in one issue and was not repeated even in their own print.

It was not until 2011 and the memoires of a retired Labour minister from the Blair years did I receive any public double sourcing of the story.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2091248/Peter-Hain-memoirs-reveal-Tony-Blair-given-Gibraltar-Spain.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/europe/gibraltar/articles/How-Tony-Blair-tried-to-give-Gibraltar-to-Spain-to-curry-favour-with-the-European-Union/

The articles do not tally. Peter Hains comments are useful in that they confirm that the negotiationsexist, but downplay them considerably. Nevertheless Blair offered that Spain could 'walk in' to Gibraltar unopposed, while the UK government would use colonial guilt and multi-culturalism as means to browbeat those in the UK who were inflamed or opposed the move. The walk in would occur about 2011-12, and the people of Gibraltar would not be consulted.
The indication I received was that once 'joint sovereignty' was proposed the Gibraltarians would wake up to find Spanish police in the territory operating under Spanish law. It would happen overnight and it would be the beginning of the end. The end result is that the Uk would lose jurisdiction over the territory in stages and the local populace would be powerfless to intervene regardless of their clear wishes on this issue.
In return Spain would back Blairs appointment for EU posts and also support Blair's moves in the EU, which they did so and this allowed Blair to grandstand.

Blair however had to leave office in 2007, and Labour was kicked out of power in 2010. Cameron quite rightly doesn't want to betray the people of Gibraltar and to his credit Brown wouldn't want to either. Selling Gibraltar for personal favours for Blair is not a deal.

Nevertheless while Gibraltar has been an issue for generations it was mostly a sleeping issue, Blair offered Madrid genuine hopes of taking the peninsular, even if in a behind the scenes deal. Blair's secret deal was for the benefit of Tony Blair, nobody else, and the deal dies with his premiership. So I can see those who negotiated with him and backed him in the EU, and their successors, being actively vocal on the issue now. I even have some sympathies, but the fact remains that the Gibraltarians have made their will knwn and any British government with the slightest amount of human decency will respect that.

Just been looking at the details of that Turkey deal.

Our leaders would struggle to sell water to a thirsty man

Fair play to Turkey - they had the EU over a barrel and they played their hand well, and got what they wanted, but this deal sucks big time.

 zedmeister wrote:
Well, erm, this was negotiated. If Cameron gets his Remain vote, he'll have the perfect opportunity to test out his emergency brake (and immediately find out it is made of Blancmange)

To be fair the handbrake the UK negotiated for doesn't cover this. Nor should it. The EU can negotiate what it wants with Turkey, no country including the UK should not have a veto to stop them, but any country should be empowered to opt out of the particular agreement.

 Orlanth wrote:
... snip ...

I despised Blair before this, but my God... I remember hearing about some maneuvers a while back but always assumed that was that other oily bastard Jack Straw. But Blair really does deserve to be vilified for bollocks such as this. For example, we can blame him for the current mess that the House of Lords is in which is pretty much now filled with political placemen. I'll stop there before I go on a colossal rant about his dismantling of various institutions that were more or less working fine, replacing them with heavily politicised quangos and derail things...

In principle, I actually agree with this deal with Turkey (well, besides them extorting us for 6 billion Euros). We have a humanitarian duty to take in genuine refugees of war who go through the proper process and apply for permission, which the people camped out at Calais are not.


No, my issue is that once Turkey gets what it wants, EU membership, its going o IMMEDIATELY break its agreement by opening the borders and flooding Europe with migrants. We cannot trust them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 zedmeister wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
... snip ...

I despised Blair before this, but my God... I remember hearing about some maneuvers a while back but always assumed that was that other oily bastard Jack Straw. But Blair really does deserve to be vilified for bollocks such as this. For example, we can blame him for the current mess that the House of Lords is in which is pretty much now filled with political placemen. I'll stop there before I go on a colossal rant about his dismantling of various institutions that were more or less working fine, replacing them with heavily politicised quangos and derail things...

B!air is a literal fething traitor.

An illegal war and alleged but unproven war crimes is one thing (and something I already despise him for) but secretly trying to sell out British citizens and hand over their fething home to a foreign government?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
In principle, I actually agree with this deal with Turkey (well, besides them extorting us for 6 billion Euros). We have a humanitarian duty to take in genuine refugees of war who go through the proper process and apply for permission, which the people camped out at Calais are not.


No, my issue is that once Turkey gets what it wants, EU membership, its going o IMMEDIATELY break its agreement by opening the borders and flooding Europe with migrants. We cannot trust them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 zedmeister wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
... snip ...

I despised Blair before this, but my God... I remember hearing about some maneuvers a while back but always assumed that was that other oily bastard Jack Straw. But Blair really does deserve to be vilified for bollocks such as this. For example, we can blame him for the current mess that the House of Lords is in which is pretty much now filled with political placemen. I'll stop there before I go on a colossal rant about his dismantling of various institutions that were more or less working fine, replacing them with heavily politicised quangos and derail things...

B!air is a literal fething traitor.

An illegal war and alleged but unproven war crimes is one thing (and something I already despise him for) but secretly trying to sell out British citizens and hand over their fething home to a foreign government?

There' no guarantee that Turkey won't send these refugees back again or issue them with visas or passports and point them in the direction of Europe. Corruption is a big problem in Turkey, and has been for a long time. This will get abused.

That's what I said.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
That's what I said.

My apologies

The EU's handling of the Turkey situation has been nothing short of shambolic. This short term plan, will, in the long term, bring the EU to its knees IMO. Handing out Visas like confetti will lead to a slippery slope.

The EU have already turned a blind eye to the Turkish government cracking down on the press. Expect the same when Turkey declares war on the Kurds.

They won't declare war, they'll just continue the status quo (which is already a de facto state of war) and deny it. If confronted over their bombing of Kurds in Syria and Iraq, Turkey will simply make indignant noises about the need to "combat terrorism".

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
They won't declare war, they'll just continue the status quo (which is already a de facto state of war) and deny it. If confronted over their bombing of Kurds in Syria and Iraq, Turkey will simply make indignant noises about the need to "combat terrorism".

On the subject of terrorism, Turkey shares a border with Iraq and Syria, terrorist sneaks into Turkey, bribes an official for a visa into Europe for six months, and...

So much for Cameron's argument that being in the EU makes Britain safer...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One of the most corrupt and authoritarian regimes on earth is now the processing centre for who gets into the EU?

A country that borders nations that contain thousands of ISIL fighters...

This is sheer insanity...beyond parody!

Get me the hell out of this EU before its too late

Cameron doesn't care about keeping Britain safe. In fact he doesn't care about half the things he says. He just cares about his own wealth and the wealth of his friends, many of whom has vested interests in Staying.

He didn't even expect he'd have to keep his election promise for a referendum, because he expected (and wanted) another coalition with the Lib Dems which he would have used as an excuse to drop policies he doesn't like.


In other news, the Daily Mail is saying that it can prove that a No.10 Cameron aide directly intervened with a call to the CBI and pressured them to oust their leader after he publicly backed the Out campaign.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

In other news, the Daily Mail is saying that it can prove that a No.10 Cameron aide directly intervened with a call to the CBI and pressured them to oust their leader after he publicly backed the Out campaign.

You mean the British Chamber of Commerce? Wouldn't surprise me especially since Guido Fawkes did some digging and found other senior members who are for Remaining are still in their posts... Dirty tricks is the name of the game here.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Cameron doesn't care about keeping Britain safe. In fact he doesn't care about half the things he says. He just cares about his own wealth and the wealth of his friends, many of whom has vested interests in Staying.

People are rarely so simplistic.

Apparently some French mayor is running his mouth saying in the event of an Out vote France will rip up the UK-France agreement on border controls in Calais, put migrants onto ferries and ship them to the UK.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/650120/France-ferries-Calais-migrants-Britain-hours-EU-out-vote-referendum-Brexit

If in the unlikely event this does happen...couldn't we just turn the ferries back? Deny them permission to dock, leaving the ferries in a limbo, at the expense of the French government? He says they'll use DFDS ferries to ship migrants to Dover, in that case we should blacklist any ferry company that cooperates with this scheme. I don't think this idiot thought it through very well.

Rash statements, illogical threats, poor understanding of current affairs... it's Boris Johnson's French cousin!

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Apparently some French mayor is running his mouth saying in the event of an Out vote France will rip up the UK-France agreement on border controls in Calais, put migrants onto ferries and ship them to the UK.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/650120/France-ferries-Calais-migrants-Britain-hours-EU-out-vote-referendum-Brexit

If in the unlikely event this does happen...couldn't we just turn the ferries back? Deny them permission to dock, leaving the ferries in a limbo, at the expense of the French government? He says they'll use DFDS ferries to ship migrants to Dover, in that case we should blacklist any ferry company that cooperates with this scheme. I don't think this idiot thought it through very well.

All we have to do is implement massive fines for every ferry caught with an illegal immigrant on board, and good luck getting the ferry companies to take them.

I love seeing the illegal immigrant issue becoming so big in Europe.

I'm not saying that in a sarcastic sense. It's been such a hot issue over here for a while now, glad to see it's not just us that's dealing with it.

 djones520 wrote:
I love seeing the illegal immigrant issue becoming so big in Europe.

I'm not saying that in a sarcastic sense. It's been such a hot issue over here for a while now, glad to see it's not just us that's dealing with it.

Another thing we have in common: our politicians are just as hopeless as your politicians when it comes to dealing with this issue

Just read the paper, apparently only 1/6 people feel as thought they know enough to vote on the referendum, and that a low turnout means Brexit is more likely.


This is from the Sun however, YMMV.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Apparently some French mayor is running his mouth saying in the event of an Out vote France will rip up the UK-France agreement on border controls in Calais, put migrants onto ferries and ship them to the UK.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/650120/France-ferries-Calais-migrants-Britain-hours-EU-out-vote-referendum-Brexit

If in the unlikely event this does happen...couldn't we just turn the ferries back? Deny them permission to dock, leaving the ferries in a limbo, at the expense of the French government? He says they'll use DFDS ferries to ship migrants to Dover, in that case we should blacklist any ferry company that cooperates with this scheme. I don't think this idiot thought it through very well.

I really can't see the legal basis on which France could deliberately ship illegal immigrants from their country to ours. And I just can't believe the way the people and officials in Calais blame Britain for the situation there, when they're illegal immigrants that entered France and are on French soil. Wherever they want to go, the French government should do something about it. Yet apparently it's all our fault!

 Howard A Treesong wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Apparently some French mayor is running his mouth saying in the event of an Out vote France will rip up the UK-France agreement on border controls in Calais, put migrants onto ferries and ship them to the UK.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/650120/France-ferries-Calais-migrants-Britain-hours-EU-out-vote-referendum-Brexit

If in the unlikely event this does happen...couldn't we just turn the ferries back? Deny them permission to dock, leaving the ferries in a limbo, at the expense of the French government? He says they'll use DFDS ferries to ship migrants to Dover, in that case we should blacklist any ferry company that cooperates with this scheme. I don't think this idiot thought it through very well.

I really can't see the legal basis on which France could deliberately ship illegal immigrants from their country to ours. And I just can't believe the way the people and officials in Calais blame Britain for the situation there, when they're illegal immigrants that entered France and are on French soil. Wherever they want to go, the French government should do something about it. Yet apparently it's all our fault!

Because the French want to pass the buck and the costs of dealing with the problem to someone else.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
That's what I said.

My apologies

The EU's handling of the Turkey situation has been nothing short of shambolic. This short term plan, will, in the long term, bring the EU to its knees IMO. Handing out Visas like confetti will lead to a slippery slope.

The EU have already turned a blind eye to the Turkish government cracking down on the press. Expect the same when Turkey declares war on the Kurds.

In this case it's Merkel who is making a pig's breakfast of things again for electoral gains at home. EU officials were aiming for a deal to close the Balkan route and force the Turks to take back non-Syrians from Greece . Her bilateral talks with Turkey sabotaged Tusk's deal and created this monstrosity. (http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/f6c982ec-e54e-11e5-ac45-5c039e797d1c.html#axzz42DYMI200)

 Antario wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
That's what I said.

My apologies

The EU's handling of the Turkey situation has been nothing short of shambolic. This short term plan, will, in the long term, bring the EU to its knees IMO. Handing out Visas like confetti will lead to a slippery slope.

The EU have already turned a blind eye to the Turkish government cracking down on the press. Expect the same when Turkey declares war on the Kurds.

In this case it's Merkel who is making a pig's breakfast of things again for electoral gains at home. EU officials were aiming for a deal to close the Balkan route and force the Turks to take back non-Syrians from Greece . Her bilateral talks with Turkey sabotaged Tusk's deal and created this monstrosity. (http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/f6c982ec-e54e-11e5-ac45-5c039e797d1c.html#axzz42DYMI200)

Would you mind quoting the article or at the very least summarizing it for those of us who don't have a subscription?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Antario wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
That's what I said.

My apologies

The EU's handling of the Turkey situation has been nothing short of shambolic. This short term plan, will, in the long term, bring the EU to its knees IMO. Handing out Visas like confetti will lead to a slippery slope.

The EU have already turned a blind eye to the Turkish government cracking down on the press. Expect the same when Turkey declares war on the Kurds.

In this case it's Merkel who is making a pig's breakfast of things again for electoral gains at home. EU officials were aiming for a deal to close the Balkan route and force the Turks to take back non-Syrians from Greece . Her bilateral talks with Turkey sabotaged Tusk's deal and created this monstrosity. (http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/f6c982ec-e54e-11e5-ac45-5c039e797d1c.html#axzz42DYMI200)

Would you mind quoting the article or at the very least summarizing it for those of us who don't have a subscription?

Sure, the key points are quoted just below.

It's nice to know that Ms Merkel's policies align so closely with the combined EU policy of over twenty member states....waitaminute....

Cheers