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2016/03/08 22:53:43
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
Hahaha, at this rate we won't need a referendum. Merkel will cause a crisis that unravels the whole thing before then
I know a load of Balkan and central Europe states are closing off borders and are thoroughly fecked off with the current mess. This unilateral "deal" will have gone down like a cup of cold sick
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/08 22:54:10
2016/03/08 22:54:48
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
Wait, WHAT?? Merkel WANTS to continue flooding Europe with migrants?
Merkel stabbing the rest of Europe in the back and making her own deal with Turkey...does she expect the rest of Europe to fall in line? What if a member state objects?
She sounds like a fething megalomaniac!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/08 22:56:10
2016/03/08 22:55:31
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
So, up until someone brought up the Daily Mail, we seemed to be half way near a reasoned discussion.
Then all of a sudden everyone is talking bollocks.
No surprise there then, that toilet paper of a rag is scientifically proven to lower the IQ of people reading it, those in the vicinity of those reading it, those who quote it on the internet, and the poor buggers who glance at a link to a web page that links to that utter gak fest.
It is absolutely guaranteed that anything that is printed in that paper, including the TV listings is utter toss. I wouldn't trust it to be able to wipe the gak from my clagnuts.
Anyway, you were saying?
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
2016/03/09 00:11:24
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
r_squared wrote: So, up until someone brought up the Daily Mail, we seemed to be half way near a reasoned discussion.
Then all of a sudden everyone is talking bollocks.
No surprise there then, that toilet paper of a rag is scientifically proven to lower the IQ of people reading it, those in the vicinity of those reading it, those who quote it on the internet, and the poor buggers who glance at a link to a web page that links to that utter gak fest.
It is absolutely guaranteed that anything that is printed in that paper, including the TV listings is utter toss. I wouldn't trust it to be able to wipe the gak from my clagnuts.
Anyway, you were saying?
Actually...we're talking about the Financial Times. The last Daily Mail link was ages ago, halfway down page page 24 by Orlanth, and that article was by Peter Hitchens, a very knowledgeable and extremely well traveled foreign correspondent who you'd do well to heed, if you could just get past your partisan bias. The rest of the links on page 24 were all Daily Express and Financial Times.
And also...I would say the same about The Guardian.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2016/03/09 00:37:34
2016/03/09 00:19:45
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
The Financial Times? and that didn't wipe the drool from the chins of the enlightened?
Well feth me.
and as for Partisan bias, there's plenty of that going on here, and it isn't coming from my posts. Apart from about the Daily Mail, because that rag is gak. And anyone who reads it, or quotes from it is a fething idiot, who should have metal tools taken away from them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/09 00:22:13
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
2016/03/09 00:28:36
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
r_squared wrote: So, up until someone brought up the Daily Mail, we seemed to be half way near a reasoned discussion.
Then all of a sudden everyone is talking bollocks.
No surprise there then, that toilet paper of a rag is scientifically proven to lower the IQ of people reading it, those in the vicinity of those reading it, those who quote it on the internet, and the poor buggers who glance at a link to a web page that links to that utter gak fest.
It is absolutely guaranteed that anything that is printed in that paper, including the TV listings is utter toss. I wouldn't trust it to be able to wipe the gak from my clagnuts.
Anyway, you were saying?
I'll be frank, that Five President's Report seems to have swung more or less every undecided voter who's read it so far in this thread. And along with myself, four other undecideds I've chatted to about it now have moved to voting 'Leave'. Vitriol from Spain and France aside, it would take a considerable revelation to shift my opinion back to undecided again.
It does make me worry for the future though. I suspect our country will take an economic hit if we do leave, and I don't look forward to the inevitable recession. I fear we may be in for a bleak few years immediately following.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/09 00:30:59
2016/03/09 00:34:47
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
r_squared wrote: So, up until someone brought up the Daily Mail, we seemed to be half way near a reasoned discussion.
Then all of a sudden everyone is talking bollocks.
No surprise there then, that toilet paper of a rag is scientifically proven to lower the IQ of people reading it, those in the vicinity of those reading it, those who quote it on the internet, and the poor buggers who glance at a link to a web page that links to that utter gak fest.
It is absolutely guaranteed that anything that is printed in that paper, including the TV listings is utter toss. I wouldn't trust it to be able to wipe the gak from my clagnuts.
Anyway, you were saying?
I'll be frank, that Five President's Report seems to have swung more or less every undecided voter who's read it so far in this thread. And along with myself, four other undecideds I've chatted to about it now have moved to voting 'Leave'. Vitriol from Spain and France aside, it would take a considerable revelation to shift my opinion back to undecided again.
It does make me worry for the future though. I suspect our country will take an economic hit if we do leave, and I don't look forward to the inevitable recession. I fear we may be in for a bleak few years immediately following.
Europe is going to shaft us regardless of the result.
Buckingham Palace has moved to deny claims the Queen is backing Brexit Monarch, 89, said to have aired Eurosceptic views to Nick Clegg at a lunch Source told The Sun pro-EU then deputy PM was reprimanded by Queen Mr Clegg last night said he had ‘no recollection’ of such a conversation
Clegg is clearly lying. That is not the sort of thing you would forget.
And yes R_squared, its a Daily Mail article. Cry me a river.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/03/09 02:06:10
2016/03/09 07:55:30
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
That's a lovely gift to Brexit. One can imagine that the telephones in Buckingham Palace will be ringing incessantly this morning with PR shills and other lowlifes desperately trying to get a statement or even turn the Queen into a Remain tool. With any luck, the Palace will be silent. Though, Charlie probably won't be able to keep his gob shut.
2016/03/09 08:55:36
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
Apparently even the Corgis and dear old Winston Churchill want out. Diana told the mail in an exclusive interview with Marjorie Potts, 68 of Hove.
"She came to me last night, clear as you standing there. I'd just had me neck medicine when the Queen of Hearts told me that Winnie and her had a message for Mr Cameron."
Made me drop me sherry it did.
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
2016/03/09 08:59:23
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
r_squared wrote: Just look at its source, the Daily fething Mail.
Apparently even the Corgis and dear old Winston Churchill want out. Diana told the mail in an exclusive interview with Marjorie Potts, 68 of Hove.
"She came to me last night, clear as you standing there. I'd just had me neck medicine when the Queen of Hearts told me that Winnie and her had a message for Mr Cameron."
Made me drop me sherry it did.
Your bias is showing. If you actually read the article, you'll see the source is actually the Sun.
I dislike the Daily Mail. It is sensational and hypocritical. But, the Daily Mail does have decent columnists that are worth a read. The aforementioned Peter Hitchens as well as Peter Oborne for example. Don't discount the story because you disagree with the publishing company.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/09 09:14:33
2016/03/09 09:19:44
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
r_squared wrote: ... Apart from about the Daily Mail, because that rag is gak. And anyone who reads it, or quotes from it is a fething idiot, who should have metal tools taken away from them.
I say the same about anyone coming from or living in the cess pit that is Boston. You lot cant even be trusted to get to the top of the stump! Your 'skilled' agri workers come from eastern Europe AND are shipped in form that other gak hole Worksop!
See, its fun to cast aspersions.
The Daily Mail is a font of regurgitated nonsense but it often hits close to the bone when other media fails to either cover stories or take the establishment line.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/09 09:20:10
2016/03/09 09:43:28
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
It does make me worry for the future though. I suspect our country will take an economic hit if we do leave, and I don't look forward to the inevitable recession. I fear we may be in for a bleak few years immediately following.
Quite.
Despite all the shouting and all too often ludicrous nationalistic statements I'd like some actual answers or plans as to what we'll actually do.
We've got something like 2 Million citizens living/working in the EU.
What is the plan for them ?
I've got friends in Germany -- other than contributors in this thread -- and of those 2 have been told that if we leave they will lose their jobs.
They'll also be, presumably, unable to claim benefits and will have to return home.
If this is repeated to any scale..... what do we do ?
If we're incredibly generous and say that 90% of people affected either take other citizenship -- some of my friends in Germany are looking into this -- or manage to work around, what are we going to do with the 200,000 people will be deported or returning home ?
The following has been doing the rounds on various sites --
Spoiler:
In laymans terms:
"But Germany, France and Italy won't stop buying things from the UK if we leave" say the brexiteers, they NEED us, and they won't put us into a tariff regime, so says the Leave EU camp.
It won't be a choice, it's not a case of the EU damaging their imports to be spiteful to a UK that just voted to leave the EU. The fact is that there exists a document called the Treaty of the European Union and it sets out the very foundation of how the 28 member states work and cooperate together. It was part written by the UK and part drafted by UK lawyers.
It was agreed by all Member States that the EU would create a 'thing' called the "EU Common External Tariff Regime" for countries outside the EU that wanted to to trade with EU businesses. Different tariffs are in place for different product types. Higher for products the EU doesn't desperately need and lower for the things it does need desperately like energy for example - which explains why Norway get such a good deal as around half of Norways exports to the EU is oil and gas.
When we tear up our membership card, Article 50 of the Treaty I mentioned comes into force. It says that a country that notifies the EU we are leaving the club all our agreements terminate 24 months after notification. When this happens (potentially summer 2018) we are automatically under the external tariff regime that the UK helped to draft and fully signed up to.
The ONLY way this could be changed is if the Treaty is changed. This requires the agreement of all remaining 27 countries. Many of whom have a referendum lock if there are any changes to the Treaty. It just isn't feasibly possible to have all the necessary referendums and treaty change agreed by heads of state of 27 nations across Europe in the 2 year time limit.
Meanwhile we could continue to renegotiate the 4,500 plus different product groups that we trade with the EU to try and get lower tariffs on the things we buy and sell. This could take as much as a decade (or longer if other trade negotiations are any guide).
The point is that the UK becoming a part of the EU Tariff Regime (which meets WTO guidelines) is automatic if we elect to Leave and there is nothing that Germany, France or Spain or even the UK can do about it.
Currently we enjoy unlimited trade with the largest trading bloc on the planet free from duties, tariffs or quota and that is my main reason for voting to stay IN the EU.
It's also worth noting that of all the top ten economies in the world every single one of them with a population of less than one billion people is a member of a continental trade bloc like the EU. Do we really think we are powerful enough to buck the trend of global trade and international economics? I think not. We are pretty good, but not *that* good.
p.s. You won't find this information in the Fact Free Zone that is the Leave EU campaign, but fact check any of the above if you so wish.
Now, obviously, none of that is or would be insurmountable and of course sometimes you have to take a hit, so to speak, to do what's worthwhile.
Or indeed one could argue that if something is the right thing to do then it should be done regardless of the cost.
But I'd really like to hear from the Brexit group what the actual plans for this will be.
I'm also somewhat dubious about what would happen to pension plans in the Uk, as if we left -- presumably... ? -- we'd no longer be protected by the legislation pushed through in the last few years
and I don't really trust the UK govt. -- of any of the parties -- with regards to protecting people's investments. they are all fat too susceptible to ....."persuasion" ..... by the big banks and investment companies.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2016/03/09 10:24:15
Subject: Re:EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
Liz was quite happy to be used as a stooge for the Better Together campaign, so the idea that the Queen is, or should remain neutral, is complete horsegak.
I've made my position clear these past months: an independent Scotland that is out of the UK and out of the EU, is what I'm after.
BUT
To see the BREXIT campaign squeal about media bias,number 10 putting pressure on business leaders to declare for IN, and moaning about project fear, well, these very same people were happy to do it to Scotland in 2014.
Suck it up, and let me enjoy a double serving Schadenfreude!
But I still want out of the EU.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2016/03/09 10:28:43
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
I've got friends in Germany -- other than contributors in this thread -- and of those 2 have been told that if we leave they will lose their jobs.
They were told that? Directly, by their management? On what grounds would they be sacked? No valid visas? Not eligible to work? Business pulling out? Something else?
The following has been doing the rounds on various sites --
All generally true, but the last line does show its bias somewhat. Though it doesn't touch on the fact that the UK imports from the EU more than it exports to the EU. And that gives us a position of strength should new treaty discussions take place. Finally, what prevents from adopting something similar to the Swiss or Norwegian model?
I'm also somewhat dubious about what would happen to pension plans in the Uk, as if we left -- presumably... ? -- we'd no longer be protected by the legislation pushed through in the last few years
and I don't really trust the UK govt. -- of any of the parties -- with regards to protecting people's investments. they are all fat too susceptible to ....."persuasion" ..... by the big banks and investment companies.
Carry on as they are? Despite Brown doing his best to feth up pensions, we are quite good at them actually. And who says all laws will be repealed? You just need to consider that the Conservatives core vote are older and a lot are pensioners. I can't see them risking upsetting their core vote by trashing or risking they're core vote's income. But, I think that leads into your point about lack of information.
Though, as has been mentioned already, the Five Presidents Report shows exactly the true direction of where we are heading and the main reason why I am voting Leave. Economy and Immigration are the big arguments, but at the end of the day it all boils down to this one simple question: Do you want to be a part of the United States of Europe? Yes? Vote Remain. No? Vote leave. And, I'll ask this question to those that think we still have a shot at reforming and maintaining distance: How successful have we been so far and do you think we'll ever have a strong enough leader to resist?
Finally, on your point about lack of trust and I strain to point out that this is not a dig at yourself. This is more me railing and ranting at faceless commentators. I'm always tripping over comments along the lines of (and I genericise them somewhat): "I hate our government, they're so undemocratic, we need the EU to step in" or "This new x law is stupid, the EU will save us" and it riles me up. The UK Gov gets things wrong, for sure, and a healthy amount of distrust should be used when dealing with them (or any government really), but we are incredibly lucky and fortunate with our society. This griping and grumbling at how bad things are here and how the UK has gone to the dogs, etc winds me up.
I learned a new word the other day that seems to fit and describe this mindset. I stumbled upon a few quotes from Roger Scruton amongst others which lead me to it. Oikophobia. The utter derision and hate for our national institutions and way of life. Oikophobia can be seen to the be the opposite of Xenophobia. So, I agree that too much nationalism is bad and leads to a kind of Xenophobia, too little and you end up with Oikophobia.
So, what's my point? None really, I just wanted to rant! And generally I'm sick of the look on peoples faces when I tell them that, for example, we're the 5th largest manufacturer globally (which happened the other day, again). Err, anyway, rant and thread derailment attempt over.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/03/09 10:37:21
2016/03/09 10:54:44
Subject: Re:EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
They were told that? Directly, by their management? On what grounds would they be sacked? No valid visas? Not eligible to work? Business pulling out? Something else?
Yes. Yes.
Employment eligibility issues for some -- indeed no visa/equivalent. One works for ..err the.... Justice ministry ...? .. or something, mainly doing translations ----- and she is very talented with her tongue -- she'd have to go as they travel/work quite a bit in the EU zone and it would be a royal PITA to sort out all the different visas.
Apparently.
TBF one FOAF who works for an anti EU wonktank has said he'll quit on principal if we stay
All generally true, but the last line does show its bias somewhat. Though it doesn't touch on the fact that the UK imports from the EU more than it exports to the EU. And that gives us a position of strength should new treaty discussions take place. Finally, what prevents from adopting something similar to the Swiss or Norwegian model?
Indeed.
However a lot of the things we export we also import bits of/ingredient for first, geography/resources being a bit against us here.
Carry on as they are? Despite Brown doing his best to feth up pensions, we are quite good at them actually. And who says all laws will be repealed? You just need to consider that the Conservatives core vote are older and a lot are pensioners. I can't see them risking upsetting their core vote by trashing or risking they're core vote's income. But, I think that leads into your point about lack of information.
Given the continued mismanagement of pensions by Osborne -- note the other changes have been delayed just as this all started -- I have as much faith in him here as in Brown or indeed any of their predecessors.
But indeed .. what is the plan ?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/09 11:00:07
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2016/03/09 11:00:26
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
welshhoppo wrote: The Daily Mail does have a reputation for being a bit of a right wing tabloid paper with poor editing skills, but it very rarely outright lies.
Well, they did with Ed Millibands father.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2016/03/09 11:13:01
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
Really? I remember them calling him a massive communist that despised his adopted country along with a load of choice quotes to back it up. Now, this being the daily mail it was no doubt laced with sensationalism, but they were never forced to retract or called to account for lying. Though, watching Ed whinge and whine about the story was amusing but that supported Labours "attack the press" strategy at the time.
2016/03/09 11:23:59
Subject: Re:EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
reds8n wrote: she'd have to go as they travel/work quite a bit in the EU zone and it would be a royal PITA to sort out all the different visas.
Shengen area requires only a single Shengen visa to move about inside it IIRC (I have much non-EU family members), so that sounds of dubious provenance.
Ex-Mantic Rules Committees: Kings of War, Warpath
"The Emperor is obviously not a dictator, he's a couch." Starbuck: "Why can't we use the starboard launch bays?"
Engineer: "Because it's a gift shop!"
2016/03/09 11:25:31
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
Really? I remember them calling him a massive communist that despised his adopted country along with a load of choice quotes to back it up. Now, this being the daily mail it was no doubt laced with sensationalism, but they were never forced to retract or called to account for lying. Though, watching Ed whinge and whine about the story was amusing but that supported Labours "attack the press" strategy at the time.
They called a person who had to flee Nazi Germany and who joined the Royal Navy and was a part of Operation Overlord someone who hated the UK.
Consider that at the time that Milliband was fleeing Nazi Germany to avoid being beaten up and stuffed into a ghetto the Daily Mail was writing articles praising Hitler and fascist groups like the National Front. Who are the ones who really hated Britain and what it stood for?
Also, Milliband may have been a communist (or, more accurately, a socialist) but he was not a Stalinist. Would you say that Orwell hated the country because of his political views? Probably not.
Also, interpreting a diary entry written by a 17 year old boy as evidence that the grown man hated the country he lived in for the rest of his life? That is pure idiocy.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/03/09 11:30:35
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2016/03/09 11:32:37
Subject: EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
Buckingham Palace has moved to deny claims the Queen is backing Brexit Monarch, 89, said to have aired Eurosceptic views to Nick Clegg at a lunch Source told The Sun pro-EU then deputy PM was reprimanded by Queen Mr Clegg last night said he had ‘no recollection’ of such a conversation
Clegg is clearly lying. That is not the sort of thing you would forget.
And yes R_squared, its a Daily Mail article. Cry me a river.
I'm trying to get around the logic of your post. "A Source" tells The Sun that something happened. Both people that supposedly were involved in this happening deny it having happened, and this is somehow evidence that they're both lying rather than "A Source"?
Let alone the logic that "I don't recall that happening" doesn't work because he'd obviously remember it, so he's obviously lying. It can't be that it didn't happen and that's why he doesn't remember it, it's obviously that he's pretending that he can't remember.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/09 11:32:49
A Town Called Malus wrote: They called a person who had to flee Nazi Germany and who joined the Royal Navy and was a part of Operation Overlord someone who hated the UK.
Consider that at the time that Milliband was fleeing Nazi Germany to avoid being beaten up and stuffed into a ghetto the Daily Mail was writing articles praising Hitler and fascist groups like the National Front. Who are the ones who really hated Britain and what it stood for?
Also, Milliband may have been a communist (or, more accurately, a socialist) but he was not a Stalinist. Would you say that Orwell hated the country because of his political views? Probably not.
Oh, I agree the article was in very poor taste and sensational, but they didn't fabricate his quotes and missed a shed load of points (for example, his total resistance to any form of military intervention or action regardless of its aims).
As to the slight strawman on what the Daily Mail did during the war, I'll say this: yes it was abhorrent, but the people who ran the stories and editorial direction in those times are most likely long dead. But avoiding an entity because of something a bunch of people did years ago seems a bit nonsensical. For example, do you avoid the likes of Bayer, Hugo Boss or VW because of what they did during the war?
Edit: You git, somehow, I've defended the Daily Mail
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/03/09 11:59:01
2016/03/09 11:40:52
Subject: Re:EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
Liz was quite happy to be used as a stooge for the Better Together campaign, so the idea that the Queen is, or should remain neutral, is complete horsegak.
You realise that there is actually a fair amount of difference between these two situations, right? With regards to Scotland, it was about Scotland leaving the thing that she is Queen of, which I imagine she would have more of a personal stake in. In the EU referendum then she won' have as much of a stake, because it's not as if she's queen of the EU.
number 10 putting pressure on business leaders to declare for IN
Have you considered that the business leaders decided upon their opinion without direction from No. 10? I mean, there's quite a lot of them come out in support of staying, I'd imagine that if there was some overarching conspiracy from David Cameron then it would have come to light, no?
reds8n wrote: she'd have to go as they travel/work quite a bit in the EU zone and it would be a royal PITA to sort out all the different visas.
Shengen area requires only a single Shengen visa to move about inside it IIRC (I have much non-EU family members), so that sounds of dubious provenance.
Quite possibly.
Will that still apply ?
Will she be allowed to keep/use her current passport ?
Or will she have to get a new one ?
And how long will that take ?
They plan some of their trips 3-4 months in advance due to all the hotels, trains etc etc .
the people who ran the stories and editorial direction in those times are most likely long de
So was the gentleman they were attacking.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2016/03/09 11:54:43
Subject: Re:EU referendum June 23rd! Should Britain stay or go?
Liz was quite happy to be used as a stooge for the Better Together campaign, so the idea that the Queen is, or should remain neutral, is complete horsegak.
More hysteria. The palace has denied any Brexit comments from Her Majesty. The person who the comments were allegedly made to cant recall them either. Its just a rumour.
As for Her Majesty and the Scottish referendum all she said was that Scots should 'think carefully before voting'. Thats a neutral comment. If Yes Scotland voters believe it is an alarm call directed at them then it only shows their own insecurity. Of course iScotland would be a venture fraught with danger, but that is not Her Majesty's fault or loads her comments, its just a reasonable assumption based on Salmond's wild and unworkable promises, that every No voter knew and most Yes voters suspected in the back of their minds.
To see the BREXIT campaign squeal about media bias,number 10 putting pressure on business leaders to declare for IN, and moaning about project fear, well, these very same people were happy to do it to Scotland in 2014.
Project Fear is now a political watchword used by both sides. I wish it wasnt because there was no Project Fear in the Scottish referendum, it was a propaganda slogan to attach to those commentators who told the truth regarding the SNP's lies and wild promises in the referendum.
Now we have both sides saying In and Out are bad for the economy. There is a lot of project Fear going on because we dont know for sure.
However iScotland not getting fast tracked into the EU, or Scotland not getting currency union, those were 'Project Fear' they were Project Tell the Truth.
Besides the SNP are walking into a trap right now today that can be used against them. I wonder if you can spot it.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
-- she'd have to go as they travel/work quite a bit in the 
