Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

It's because the polls, averaged across the common ones are showing the vote split 50/50. Remains are getting ever more desperate and resorting to ever more ridiculous hyperbole.

Project fear has morphed into project ridiculous. I laughed when I saw the wwIII story.

IDS claims that Germany vetoed Cameron's EU reforms negotiations:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/10/iain-duncan-smith-cameron-let-germans-veto-emergency-brake

Well, this has put the cat amongst the pigeons

If it's true, and I have no reason to doubt it, the Conservative split over the EU is getting wider by the minute. The gloves are off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 zedmeister wrote:
It's because the polls, averaged across the common ones are showing the vote split 50/50. Remains are getting ever more desperate and resorting to ever more ridiculous hyperbole.

Project fear has morphed into project ridiculous. I laughed when I saw the wwIII story.

I'm still laughing!

In all honesty, I wish I could vote tomorrow and put an end to this poor excuse for democratic debate from both sides. A plague on both their houses!

OMG war......with Europe. That's always been a big fear for the British.

Tell me it isn't so Dave, oh you've convinced me.

[Sarcasm mode OFF]

Seriously. This whole campaign is proof (if it were needed) that politicians and papers really do think we are as daft as they would like.

The more I read about the EU issue more annoying it gets. The suprising thing is the PM has handled this so poorly, so amateurishly. I think he's nailed his flag to the wrong mast and will go down with the ship.

HMS Boris here we come.

Cameron is like a bad second hand car salesman trying to convince you that a Reliant Robin can do 0-60 in five seconds. Why on earth did he for one second expect anyone in the country to be swayed by the idea that leaving the eu could lead to war in Europe.

What an utter berk.

The leave campaign aren't much better to be fair, some of their own claims have been laughable, and they've been just as misleading as remain.

To me this whole campaign just highlights the lack of respect (mainly right wing) politicians have for the plebs. Both sides clearly think we are all idiots who can be swayed by their garbage.

I would remind you that it is the mostly "Right" lead leave campaign that is prioritising British democracy. The Left (and unions?) have for some reason fallen meekly into line with the PM on this issue.

Highlighting the Conservatives on both sides only shows up Labour/Liberals for lack of any leadership or personality and indeed general interest in the thoughts of the common Britton.

 notprop wrote:
I would remind you that it is the mostly "Right" lead leave campaign that is prioritising British democracy. The Left (and unions?) have for some reason fallen meekly into line with the PM on this issue.

Highlighting the Conservatives on both sides only shows up Labour/Liberals for lack of any leadership or personality and indeed general interest in the thoughts of the common Britton.

Those on the leave side seem to be the lunatic fringe. Nigel Farrage, Boris Johnstone and George Galloway....what a team. Then you have Gove and Grayling sniping from the sidelines. And let's not forget they now have the support of Donald Trump too

Yes, plenty on the left have come out in support of Europe, most notably the unions. Could it be that they see the eu as a integral part of keeping their members (The common Britton) jobs secure, as well as protecting workers rights? They've hardly fallen meekly in line. They've chosen the side of the argument that they feel is best for their intrests.

Of course Boris has chosen the side that best serves his intrests too....its just those intrests seem to be furthering his own political goals rather than what's best for the country.

So self interest for Unions good, for Boris bad.

gotcha.

Latest EU referendum poll.

Bear in mind that this was conducted before Cameron's World War 3 speech, so the leave side probably gained a few points

Sample size 1003. Undecideds not included.

EU referendum poll:
Remain: 44% (-)
Leave: 46% (+1)
(via ICM / 06 - 08 May)

Neck and neck...Could be worrying for Da Boss

 notprop wrote:
So self interest for Unions good, for Boris bad.

gotcha.

Essentially yes. Self interest in the unions case is in order to protect millions of jobs and the basic rights of workers. Self intrest in Boris Johnstones case is getting his mug on the telly and trying to become prime minister. The guy is only out for number 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Latest EU referendum poll.

Bear in mind that this was conducted before Cameron's World War 3 speech, so the leave side probably gained a few points

Sample size 1003. Undecideds not included.

EU referendum poll:
Remain: 44% (-)
Leave: 46% (+1)
(via ICM / 06 - 08 May)

Neck and neck...Could be worrying for Da Boss

I'd be very interested to see what percentage are undecided, as it's a very important factor. When it comes to the brass tacks, many undecided often stick with the safe bet. It's difficult to argue that a leap into the unknown is a safe bet.

Christ, Cameron is embarassing himself. It hacks me off I'm being left on the same political line as Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage. It's no wonder the media is able to paint 'Leave' as a bunch of cranks when the most public representatives are just that!

Meanwhile, a bunch of retired American civil servants and military people apparently say that we should stay as part of the EU for general unspecified security reasons. I'm not going to lie, I read that and just think to myself, 'What on earth does it have to do with them, and why should I care what they think?' It's bit like if the ex-Burmese Junta wanted to make their opinion known, or the current military staff of Chile. I accept everyone has an opinion, but it really is of absolutely no relevance to me, nor does it have any bearing on my decision.

The Great Gordo Brown makes the case for remain, with a cut and paste speech from the Scottish independence referendum

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/11/gordon-brown-enters-eu-debate-appeal-to-labour-voters

Brown, you'll remember, is the man who signed the Lisbon treaty without reference to the nation, and yet he has the nerve to bang on about democracy

The man's an embarrassment to the nation.

link fixed.
Reds8n

Broon strikes, the nation weeps.

Keep an eye out for more than the usual amount of shifty chicanery and subterfuge from the Gov over the coming days. The number of EU nationals given NI numbers stats are out soon and they're expected to be somewhat higher than the government's official figures on EU immigration.

 zedmeister wrote:
Broon strikes, the nation weeps.

Keep an eye out for more than the usual amount of shifty chicanery and subterfuge from the Gov over the coming days. The number of EU nationals given NI numbers stats are out soon and they're expected to be somewhat higher than the government's official figures on EU immigration.

I will keep an eye open for that.

Got my EU referendum leaflet through the door today. It had been delayed in Scotland because of the Scottish Parliament election.

My verdict?

What a load of Cameron propaganda!

Even if I was minded to vote remain, some of the 'facts' in the leaflet are the opposite.

I feel sorry for the trees that died for this.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 zedmeister wrote:
Broon strikes, the nation weeps.

Keep an eye out for more than the usual amount of shifty chicanery and subterfuge from the Gov over the coming days. The number of EU nationals given NI numbers stats are out soon and they're expected to be somewhat higher than the government's official figures on EU immigration.

I will keep an eye open for that.

Got my EU referendum leaflet through the door today. It had been delayed in Scotland because of the Scottish Parliament election.

My verdict?

What a load of Cameron propaganda!

Even if I was minded to vote remain, some of the 'facts' in the leaflet are the opposite.

I feel sorry for the trees that died for this.

Yeah I got mine too, as well as a load of leaflets from the leave campaign. Both were full of nonsense and half truths.

For once it would be great if the politicians gave us some facts to make our decisions with, especially for something so important as this. But they are all still playing their petty little one upmanship games.

Ha! I'm not too bothered if ye leave lads. It will be very interesting, at least! Agreed on the crappyness of all the politicians in the debate bar my boyfriend Corbyn.

The government produced leaflet should have been produced by an independent body. Instead it's just pro-EU propaganda that they had the cheek to say was 'informing' the public and telling us what the government's position is. It's not the government's position, the government is divided over the issue, it's Cameron's position and we're all aware of which side he is on. The dodge used to spend millions of public money to produce this on top on the allocated amounts that both campaigns are supposed to abide by was disgusting.

Cameron will now say or do anything now to prevent out votes. Prepare for weeks of dirty tricks and outright propaganda from both sides as they try to outdo each other.

I think Cameron's approach is becoming counterproductive, as people are becoming fed up of Cameron's attempts to scare and browbeat the public into voting his way. Whether this number of pissed off people is more or less than those the scare campaign works on is yet to be seen.

 Da Boss wrote:
Ha! I'm not too bothered if ye leave lads. It will be very interesting, at least! Agreed on the crappyness of all the politicians in the debate bar my boyfriend Corbyn.

Corbyn? He's been bad-mouthing the European project for years, then U-turns on a scale that would shame Nick Clegg, and you're praising Corbyn!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
The government produced leaflet should have been produced by an independent body. Instead it's just pro-EU propaganda that they had the cheek to say was 'informing' the public and telling us what the government's position is. It's not the government's position, the government is divided over the issue, it's Cameron's position and we're all aware of which side he is on. The dodge used to spend millions of public money to produce this on top on the allocated amounts that both campaigns are supposed to abide by was disgusting.

Cameron will now say or do anything now to prevent out votes. Prepare for weeks of dirty tricks and outright propaganda from both sides as they try to outdo each other.

I think Cameron's approach is becoming counterproductive, as people are becoming fed up of Cameron's attempts to scare and browbeat the public into voting his way. Whether this number of pissed off people is more or less than those the scare campaign works on is yet to be seen.

Whatever way the vote goes - Cameron's days are numbered. The Tory grassroots are sharpening their knives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 General Kroll wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 zedmeister wrote:
Broon strikes, the nation weeps.

Keep an eye out for more than the usual amount of shifty chicanery and subterfuge from the Gov over the coming days. The number of EU nationals given NI numbers stats are out soon and they're expected to be somewhat higher than the government's official figures on EU immigration.

I will keep an eye open for that.

Got my EU referendum leaflet through the door today. It had been delayed in Scotland because of the Scottish Parliament election.

My verdict?

What a load of Cameron propaganda!

Even if I was minded to vote remain, some of the 'facts' in the leaflet are the opposite.

I feel sorry for the trees that died for this.

Yeah I got mine too, as well as a load of leaflets from the leave campaign. Both were full of nonsense and half truths.

For once it would be great if the politicians gave us some facts to make our decisions with, especially for something so important as this. But they are all still playing their petty little one upmanship games.

I was tempted to fire my leaflet back out the letterbox or even use it on my rear for you know what, but sharp edges and a delicate area make for a bad mix!

Ah now, it's possible to criticise without wanting to leave. I've loads of things to criticise about the EU, but I don't want to leave it or see it destroyed. Just improved!

But Corbyn is just so dreamy.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Ha! I'm not too bothered if ye leave lads. It will be very interesting, at least! Agreed on the crappyness of all the politicians in the debate bar my boyfriend Corbyn.

Corbyn? He's been bad-mouthing the European project for years, then U-turns on a scale that would shame Nick Clegg, and you're praising Corbyn!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
The government produced leaflet should have been produced by an independent body. Instead it's just pro-EU propaganda that they had the cheek to say was 'informing' the public and telling us what the government's position is. It's not the government's position, the government is divided over the issue, it's Cameron's position and we're all aware of which side he is on. The dodge used to spend millions of public money to produce this on top on the allocated amounts that both campaigns are supposed to abide by was disgusting.

Cameron will now say or do anything now to prevent out votes. Prepare for weeks of dirty tricks and outright propaganda from both sides as they try to outdo each other.

I think Cameron's approach is becoming counterproductive, as people are becoming fed up of Cameron's attempts to scare and browbeat the public into voting his way. Whether this number of pissed off people is more or less than those the scare campaign works on is yet to be seen.

Whatever way the vote goes - Cameron's days are numbered. The Tory grassroots are sharpening their knives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 General Kroll wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 zedmeister wrote:
Broon strikes, the nation weeps.

Keep an eye out for more than the usual amount of shifty chicanery and subterfuge from the Gov over the coming days. The number of EU nationals given NI numbers stats are out soon and they're expected to be somewhat higher than the government's official figures on EU immigration.

I will keep an eye open for that.

Got my EU referendum leaflet through the door today. It had been delayed in Scotland because of the Scottish Parliament election.

My verdict?

What a load of Cameron propaganda!

Even if I was minded to vote remain, some of the 'facts' in the leaflet are the opposite.

I feel sorry for the trees that died for this.

Yeah I got mine too, as well as a load of leaflets from the leave campaign. Both were full of nonsense and half truths.

For once it would be great if the politicians gave us some facts to make our decisions with, especially for something so important as this. But they are all still playing their petty little one upmanship games.

I was tempted to fire my leaflet back out the letterbox or even use it on my rear for you know what, but sharp edges and a delicate area make for a bad mix!

Lol it's far too glossy to use as loo paper.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/pro-brexit-group-grassroots-out-has-sacked-a-dozen-staff-ahe?utm_term=.rn1Gxz8Re#.nsLVgk6J0

Pro-Brexit Group Grassroots Out Has Sacked A Dozen Staff Ahead Of Referendum
The Nigel Farage-backed campaign has sacked its regional coordinators with just six weeks to go until the EU referendum, BuzzFeed News has learned, leaving what one former agent described as a “zombie campaign”.

..............

Around a dozen full-time agents were made redundant last month, despite helping to found local anti-EU campaigns and coordinate volunteers in the run-up to the vote on 23 June.
One former Grassroots Out agent claimed staff had originally been promised a job until after the EU referendum and suggested the organisation, founded by Tory MPs Peter Bone and Tom Pursglove, now resembled a “zombie campaign”.
The decision to sack the professional staff before the vote shows the problems caused by rival factions within the anti-EU movement building their own organisations and competing for the support of the same activists.
The ex-agent suggested the decision to sack staff meant the campaign now had a network of anti-EU volunteers across the country who would no longer be coordinated, potentially damaging the pro-Brexit campaign. They also claimed individuals at the top of the GO organisation had blocked efforts to work with the official anti-EU campaign, Vote Leave, due to personal enmities.
“A lot of people in Grassroots Out wanted to work with Vote Leave after they got designation, but people at the top of Grassroots Out didn’t want to work with Vote Leave,” said the former agent. “If you’re going to support a football team you’re not going to support a football team that’s gone into an unofficial league. It makes sense to work with Vote Leave.”

In related news :


https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/730524198989385728




That's a Vote Leave spokesperson, complaining after ITV chose Nigel Farage -- the leader of UKIP -- to represent the Leave campaign in a TV debate.

So this means that anti-EU UKIP are at war with anti-EU Vote Leave after Vote Leave attacked ITV/Peston for being pro-EU : by putting Farage on TV.


Meanwhile Boris Johnson has pulled a pint and waved a pasty about, with regards to information about exactly what we'd if with regards to EU citizens in this country if we do choose to leave there appears to be something of a silence.

 reds8n wrote:
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/pro-brexit-group-grassroots-out-has-sacked-a-dozen-staff-ahe?utm_term=.rn1Gxz8Re#.nsLVgk6J0

Pro-Brexit Group Grassroots Out Has Sacked A Dozen Staff Ahead Of Referendum
The Nigel Farage-backed campaign has sacked its regional coordinators with just six weeks to go until the EU referendum, BuzzFeed News has learned, leaving what one former agent described as a “zombie campaign”.

..............

Around a dozen full-time agents were made redundant last month, despite helping to found local anti-EU campaigns and coordinate volunteers in the run-up to the vote on 23 June.
One former Grassroots Out agent claimed staff had originally been promised a job until after the EU referendum and suggested the organisation, founded by Tory MPs Peter Bone and Tom Pursglove, now resembled a “zombie campaign”.
The decision to sack the professional staff before the vote shows the problems caused by rival factions within the anti-EU movement building their own organisations and competing for the support of the same activists.
The ex-agent suggested the decision to sack staff meant the campaign now had a network of anti-EU volunteers across the country who would no longer be coordinated, potentially damaging the pro-Brexit campaign. They also claimed individuals at the top of the GO organisation had blocked efforts to work with the official anti-EU campaign, Vote Leave, due to personal enmities.
“A lot of people in Grassroots Out wanted to work with Vote Leave after they got designation, but people at the top of Grassroots Out didn’t want to work with Vote Leave,” said the former agent. “If you’re going to support a football team you’re not going to support a football team that’s gone into an unofficial league. It makes sense to work with Vote Leave.”

In related news :


https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/730524198989385728




That's a Vote Leave spokesperson, complaining after ITV chose Nigel Farage -- the leader of UKIP -- to represent the Leave campaign in a TV debate.

So this means that anti-EU UKIP are at war with anti-EU Vote Leave after Vote Leave attacked ITV/Peston for being pro-EU : by putting Farage on TV.


Meanwhile Boris Johnson has pulled a pit and waved a pasty about, with regards to information about exactly what we'd if with regards to EU citizens in this country if we do choose to leave there appears to be something of a silence.

I think leave have every right to be aggrieved at Farrage being chosen for the debate, he's not part of the official leave campaign, sure he's well known for his anti eu views, but he's essentially a civilian in all this. Of course ITV could have just chosen him on the basis that he will provide good entertainment value due to his prat levels. They could have had a range of voices, Boris, Cameron, Farrage and Alan Johnstone/Corbyn would have seemed fairer.

I'm worried about the lack of co-ordination for the leave campaign (up here in Scotland it seems to be non-existent)

but I'm not worried about Farage being chosen for the debate - at least he'll come out all guns blazing and stick it to Cameron.

Next scare story out, now exit will cause recession.

Honestly Cameron must be a really bad PM, he’s put our membership of the EU in jeopardy when it’ll lead to:

World War 3,
The complete removal of our influence in the world
The complete end of all trade with the EU
A recession
The end of all worker rights
Climate Change running rampant (but only within the boundaries of the UK)
Criminals and terrorists walking freely in the streets

Honestly, want kind of PM takes any action that could cause all this.....


Or perhaps they are all just scare stories and he doesn’t really believe any of that would happen.

Stranger83 wrote:
Next scare story out, now exit will cause recession.

Honestly Cameron must be a really bad PM, he’s put our membership of the EU in jeopardy when it’ll lead to:

World War 3,
The complete removal of our influence in the world
The complete end of all trade with the EU
A recession
The end of all worker rights
Climate Change running rampant (but only within the boundaries of the UK)
Criminals and terrorists walking freely in the streets

Honestly, want kind of PM takes any action that could cause all this.....


Or perhaps they are all just scare stories and he doesn’t really believe any of that would happen.

Cameron is an idiot, but that's by the by. He called the referendum because he wouldn't have had any hope of staying prime minister otherwise, the knives were out in the Tory party, and if he hadn't bent to the will of the euro sceptics like Gove and Grayling he would have got shanked big time.

I don't think they are all "scare stories" as you put it. The markets will not react well if we vote no, that's almost a given, any hint of instability and the stock market has a wobble. Getting out of the eu is a jump into the unknown. The markets will like that even less.

Workers right for example, would most certainly not be safe. Look at what the current government is doing to the trade unions for example. Would you REALLY trust a post Brexit Tory party to keep the liberal workers rights we have now?

I don't think anyone has said trade with the eu will end, but it won't be anywhere near as easy as it is now, especially while we are waiting for any trade deals to be sorted out.

There have been just as many scare stories from the ones wanting us to leave the eu. Remember Farrage saying that 20 million Romanians were going to turn up when they joined the EU? Or his recent broadcast about all those Muslims in Turkey wanting to come over here and rape us all.

Then of course there's all the wild claims about "all our laws being made in Brussels" and how we don't have a say. I forget the exact percentages that were being thrown out by the anti Europe mob, but I remember them being widely debunked. That's before you get into the fact that we actually have a say, as well as a veto on major changes. And let's not forget that many of these are laws we'd have to obey anyway should we pull out and still want to trade with the EU.

The current custodians of the leave campaign may not be throwing out these wild stories at the moment, but we've been subjected to decades of anti European fear stories from the likes of Farrage, the Express and the Mail.

There's misinformation and exaggeration on both sides of the debate. Just like there are fairly sensible points to be found too.

 General Kroll wrote:


Workers right for example, would most certainly not be safe. Look at what the current government is doing to the trade unions for example. Would you REALLY trust a post Brexit Tory party to keep the liberal workers rights we have now?

It always makes me laugh that people seem to think that the EU is some mighty protector of workers rights - because one of the worst infringements I can think of to workers rights are zero hour contracts - and these were entirely unheard of before the EU.

Stranger83 wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:


Workers right for example, would most certainly not be safe. Look at what the current government is doing to the trade unions for example. Would you REALLY trust a post Brexit Tory party to keep the liberal workers rights we have now?

It always makes me laugh that people seem to think that the EU is some mighty protector of workers rights - because one of the worst infringements I can think of to workers rights are zero hour contracts - and these were entirely unheard of before the EU.

Are you seriously blaming the rise of zero hour contracts on the eu?

That's laughable. Truly.

 General Kroll wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:


Workers right for example, would most certainly not be safe. Look at what the current government is doing to the trade unions for example. Would you REALLY trust a post Brexit Tory party to keep the liberal workers rights we have now?

It always makes me laugh that people seem to think that the EU is some mighty protector of workers rights - because one of the worst infringements I can think of to workers rights are zero hour contracts - and these were entirely unheard of before the EU.

Are you seriously blaming the rise of zero hour contracts on the eu?

That's laughable. Truly.

But it does raise an interesting point does it not? You stated that workers rights may not be safe out of the EU. But clearly, we have had zero hours contracts. The EU is not a defender of workers rights but is working to regulate such contracts - which are used across Europe where there are different implementations.

If the EU were to determine that the UK method of implementation was correct - and legislated on that basis - what then?

Some interesting articles linked below:
http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/observatories/eurwork/industrial-relations-dictionary/zero-hours-contracts

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/mar/09/uk-workers-on-zero-hours-contracts-rises-above-800000

http://www.epsu.org/article/zero-hours-and-spread-precarious-employment

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:


Workers right for example, would most certainly not be safe. Look at what the current government is doing to the trade unions for example. Would you REALLY trust a post Brexit Tory party to keep the liberal workers rights we have now?

It always makes me laugh that people seem to think that the EU is some mighty protector of workers rights - because one of the worst infringements I can think of to workers rights are zero hour contracts - and these were entirely unheard of before the EU.

Are you seriously blaming the rise of zero hour contracts on the eu?

That's laughable. Truly.

But it does raise an interesting point does it not? You stated that workers rights may not be safe out of the EU. But clearly, we have had zero hours contracts. The EU is not a defender of workers rights but is working to regulate such contracts - which are used across Europe where there are different implementations.

If the EU were to determine that the UK method of implementation was correct - and legislated on that basis - what then?

Some interesting articles linked below:
http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/observatories/eurwork/industrial-relations-dictionary/zero-hours-contracts

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/mar/09/uk-workers-on-zero-hours-contracts-rises-above-800000

http://www.epsu.org/article/zero-hours-and-spread-precarious-employment

Zero hours contracts are a relatively new phenomena at least on this scale. While deplorable, there hasn't really been much work done to combat them yet. Just because the eu hasn't cracked down on them...yet. Does not make them in any way responsible for them.

Look at all the other things the eu has done for workers rights:

Paid holidays
Maternity and paternity leave
The working time directive.

It's utter nonsense to say that simply because zero hour contracts exist, that the eu is responsible. Quite frankly, I would trust Brussels to deal with the problem far more than I would trust the current Tory government.

Zero hour contracts were defined in 1996 legislation.

You say maternity and paternity leave are things that came from the EU.

Yet British Materinity and Paternity leave is much better than the European requirement. The EU only demands that you give 18 weeks Materinity leave, and it doesn't have to be paid.....


Honestly, th Government isn't about to remove all our rights because we leave the EU.