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 zedmeister wrote:

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
I'm looking forward to the fallout between all these future failures. It would be especially sweet if Boris, who saw this as the perfect vehicle for his leadership campaign, despite not believing in the cause, is wiped out as a contender.

As mentioned earlier (and I don't single you out for this), and as I regularly caution to anyone who listens to my drivelings, don't fall into the trap of deciding to vote one way because of a dislike of personality on one side - this is too important for that.

Either way, regardless of the referendum result, there'll be blood letting in the Tory party. Should remain prevail, the local associations won't forgive those who got voted in on a brexit ticket and backed remain. Osbourne's ambitions (he's the current puller of strings in the party) are pretty much nobbled - he's already drastically unpopular in the party and his ratings continues to plummet. Should leave prevail, there'll be a big cull and the knives will definitely be out for Cameron and Osbourne.

So, after the vote, break out the popcorn!

I think that's probably going to be the best thing to come out of the referendum, the implosion of the Tories. I honestly don't think the result of the referendum will make that much difference to our lives one way or the other. Most of the arguments are hyperbole and exaggeration. As I've said before, both sides are willfully misleading the public.

 zedmeister wrote:


If you can find a post in this thread where I was drum beating and going on patriotic rants about "Britishness", johnny foreigner, etc, etc, then show me and I will apologise. Also, I fail to understand how spelling relates to being British. Surely that's a question of cultural identity, not a flippin' spelling test? Otherwise your 'point' veers towards argumentum ad hominem.

I'm sorry. I apologise for the collateral ad hominem damage. This was mentioned in the context of the quote I pasted, from someone saying he wanted out because foreigners can't speak English, and who wanted to take away his sovereignity. A word that crops up so much I'm thinking it's a combination of sovereignty and dignity.

and of course i also agree with the previous post, that it would surely be insane to choose a side based on the politicians punting it. As a great Englishman once said, it would be like arguing precedence between a louse and a flea.

That said, I truly believe one side is being more mendacious than the other. Lying about how much we pay the EU is different from choosing an economic forecast that helps your case. And I'm surprised there's no reaction to the fact that many of the Brexiters, including John redwood and Andrea Leadsom, have dropped the "we're paying £20bn a year" argument, and are now saying it's £10bn (It's more like £8bn). There's a report on it here..

This is it - it's on.

Today marks the official start of the Purdah period, and postal votes are hitting the nation's letterboxes at any minute.

The clock is ticking.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
Daily Telegraph is reporting that plans for an EU army won't be revealed until after the referendum.

Why does the EU need its own military?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/plans-to-create-an-eu-army-kept-secret-from-voters/

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
This is it - it's on.

Today marks the official start of the Purdah period, and postal votes are hitting the nation's letterboxes at any minute.

The clock is ticking.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
Daily Telegraph is reporting that plans for an EU army won't be revealed until after the referendum.

Why does the EU need its own military?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/plans-to-create-an-eu-army-kept-secret-from-voters/

Because they're building a Super State comparable to the USA OR USSR and every State needs it's own currency (check), Bank (check) and military (WIP).

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
This is it - it's on.

Today marks the official start of the Purdah period, and postal votes are hitting the nation's letterboxes at any minute.

The clock is ticking.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
Daily Telegraph is reporting that plans for an EU army won't be revealed until after the referendum.

Why does the EU need its own military?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/plans-to-create-an-eu-army-kept-secret-from-voters/

Because they're building a Super State comparable to the USA OR USSR and every State needs it's own currency (check), Bank (check) and military (WIP).

My great fear is this: if we vote to stay in, then the EU can justifiably say that Britain has now voted twice to stay in Europe (1975 and 2016) and that Britain needs to put up or shut up.

We wouldn't have a leg to stand on if more integration happened.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Why does the EU need its own military?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/plans-to-create-an-eu-army-kept-secret-from-voters/

NATO is the cornerstone of European defense policy. However this organization is completely depended on US military infrastructure. EU nations want some military expeditionary capability for interventions in Europe's backyard that the US can't be arsed with.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
My great fear is this: if we vote to stay in, then the EU can justifiably say that Britain has now voted twice to stay in Europe (1975 and 2016) and that Britain needs to put up or shut up.

We wouldn't have a leg to stand on if more integration happened.

That's my great fear as well. We've come too far. If we vote to stay after all this the EU is going to hammer us mercilessly. No more op outs on future integration, and a steady piling on of the pressure to join the euro etc. Our bluff will have been called. And we'll just sit there in the corner being ignored as more countries pile in...except when they want more money off us.

I have this feeling that remain are going to win. I've heard some people say that they'll vote to stay in just to avoid roaming charges on their phone. If people are willing to throw away national sovereignty for such shallow reasons maybe we didn't deserve it in the first place.

It's a possibility. Or perhaps the EU will simply welcome us back and acknowledge that there is a need for internal change.

Zond wrote:
It's a possibility. Or perhaps the EU will simply welcome us back and acknowledge that there is a need for internal change.

Just kiddin.

Meh, got to do something to break up the fearful doom and gloom in the echo chamber.

Zond wrote:
It's a possibility. Or perhaps the EU will simply welcome us back and acknowledge that there is a need for internal change.

The same EU that has taken to searching our elected representatives for digital devices before they're allowed to go read proposed legislation in a secure room?

Seems legit

Haha, better than this mythical British Utopia that will arise once the shackles of these damned Europeans are lifted. We'll save so much money... the exact figure is hard to pin down. We'll have control over all this rampant immigration, like the 20,000 Syrians we have to find homes for of which we've taken in 1600. And if rumours are correct you'll finally be free of those bloody Scots.

It's a vote to see whether you want to get feth'd by the UK or the EU Parliament at this point. Like every vote.

Zond wrote:
Haha, better than this mythical British Utopia that will arise once the shackles of these damned Europeans are lifted. We'll save so much money... the exact figure is hard to pin down. We'll have control over all this rampant immigration, like the 20,000 Syrians we have to find homes for of which we've taken in 1600. And if rumours are correct you'll finally be free of those bloody Scots.

It's a vote to see whether you want to get feth'd by the UK or the EU Parliament at this point. Like every vote.

Yeah, but I can kick the buggers off the gravy chain in one of those choices.

You can? I think that requires societal collapse or revolution.

It dawned on me today. The Commission is the only group that initiates EU law and is lobbied by national governments and big businesses. The Commission is appointed by the Council, made up of the government ministers. Our leaders appoint these guys to dictate laws.

I see it all now. The EU is perfectly designed to allow so called democratic governments to rule without answering to the people. They appoint the commissioners who create laws they and big businesses have lobbied for, and when people complain about those laws they say 'aw sorry, but it's not us doing it. Blame the commission.'

The Commission, seemingly the ones in charge, are really a shield for the Council to do whatever the hell it wants. The only way this can be fixed if the commission is nominated by the parliament or from the parliament and voted in by the people. But thats never going to happen. Why would they upset this sweet deal they have going.

Look at past commissioners. Our governments sent Neil Kinnock, the guy who lost two general elections. So despite the British people clearly stating that they didn't want him in charge, off he went to the Commision to weild political power over us.

Zond wrote:
You can? I think that requires societal collapse or revolution.

Nah mate. It's called the General Election.

Although it might seem like societal collapse for some of them. God only knows I was pleased when Galloway's arse ceased to warm his seat in Parliament.

Zond wrote:
Meh, got to do something to break up the fearful doom and gloom in the echo chamber.

This place really has become an echo chamber hasn't it. Anyone with a hint of remain sentiment gets shot down as we saw a few pages back. It also make me laugh when all the brexiters talk about project fear without a hint of irony, while at the same time warning of an eu army/super state, and being forced to integrate more. Let alone all the nonsense spouted about how many immigrants could be coming in the next few years.

We can leave at any time we want if things get dodgy, this isn't a one off choice. We don't even need a referendum, all we need is a parliamentary act saying we are leaving. Simples. Right now there is no eu army, there is no third reich style super state, and net migration from the eu is around 150000. For perspective that's around 0.25 percent of the population. If that's putting a strain on public services, then perhaps the problem is with the capacity in our public services, not the people using them.

 Ketara wrote:

Zond wrote:
Haha, better than this mythical British Utopia that will arise once the shackles of these damned Europeans are lifted. We'll save so much money... the exact figure is hard to pin down. We'll have control over all this rampant immigration, like the 20,000 Syrians we have to find homes for of which we've taken in 1600. And if rumours are correct you'll finally be free of those bloody Scots.

It's a vote to see whether you want to get feth'd by the UK or the EU Parliament at this point. Like every vote.

Yeah, but I can kick the buggers off the gravy chain in one of those choices.

Yeah, the further the decision point of "democracy" is removed from the people the harder it becomes for people to influence it.

Zond wrote:
It's a possibility. Or perhaps the EU will simply welcome us back and acknowledge that there is a need for internal change.

If the EU starts internal change, I'll change my name to dakka dakka, and you can quote me on that!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've decided to shift my focus to what will happen after the referendum, and I found this Guardian article to be quite interesting. It's about the fragmentation of English politics.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/26/immigration-england-ons-migration-london-eu-referendum

I've said this numerous times, but if Remain don't win by a big margin, the problem won't go away.

Everybody predicted the death of the SNP after the 2014 referendum, but they cleaned up at the General Election a few months later.

If it's an IN vote, expect to see UKIP's support skyrocket in the months to come, especially in the old industrial areas of England. This will damage the Labour party and make a 2020 GE election victory even more unlikely.

 General Kroll wrote:

Zond wrote:
Meh, got to do something to break up the fearful doom and gloom in the echo chamber.

This place really has become an echo chamber hasn't it. Anyone with a hint of remain sentiment gets shot down as we saw a few pages back. It also make me laugh when all the brexiters talk about project fear without a hint of irony, while at the same time warning of an eu army/super state, and being forced to integrate more. Let alone all the nonsense spouted about how many immigrants could be coming in the next few years.

We can leave at any time we want if things get dodgy, this isn't a one off choice. We don't even need a referendum, all we need is a parliamentary act saying we are leaving. Simples. Right now there is no eu army, there is no third reich style super state, and net migration from the eu is around 150000. For perspective that's around 0.25 percent of the population. If that's putting a strain on public services, then perhaps the problem is with the capacity in our public services, not the people using them.

1. Please define "shot down". This is a public forum, and people are free to disagree with you. Don't like people disagreeing with your opinion? Don't post here then.

2. Warnings about an "EU army" and further integratiion are not fear mongering, these are actual proposals and plans being put forward right now. The Five Presidents Report lays out their plans for future integration in the next few years.

3. Net immigration is running at 300,000 a year. Several more countries are on track to join the EU, including Turkey, which is MASSIVE and quickly becoming an Islamist dictatorship , and its entire population will have the right to immigrate to this country. Just exactly how are complaints about this "nonsense"?

4. Yes, we can leave without a referendum if a Government makes the decision to leave and pushes it through Parliament. But thats never going to happen, because no prominent parliamentary party is in favour of leaving. Hence the surge in support for Eurosceptics like UKIP in recent years. At least a vote to Leave in this referendum will send a clear message to the political class that they're on the wrong side of the issue.

 General Kroll wrote:

Zond wrote:
Meh, got to do something to break up the fearful doom and gloom in the echo chamber.

This place really has become an echo chamber hasn't it. Anyone with a hint of remain sentiment gets shot down as we saw a few pages back. It also make me laugh when all the brexiters talk about project fear without a hint of irony, while at the same time warning of an eu army/super state, and being forced to integrate more. Let alone all the nonsense spouted about how many immigrants could be coming in the next few years.

We can leave at any time we want if things get dodgy, this isn't a one off choice. We don't even need a referendum, all we need is a parliamentary act saying we are leaving. Simples. Right now there is no eu army, there is no third reich style super state, and net migration from the eu is around 150000. For perspective that's around 0.25 percent of the population. If that's putting a strain on public services, then perhaps the problem is with the capacity in our public services, not the people using them.

I don't call it 'project fear', i call it 'sleepwalking the voter into having no say at all' - it's difficult enough to get something changed in this country, what makes you think that we will get any more accountability by introducing another layer of bureaucracy above them?
The answer is that we wont. It will become less accountable - that's not 'project fear', that's logical deduction.

The EU presidents release a report stating that the aim of the EU is complete integration of all member states, and assuming roles in all member states political systems which policymakers make the country legally accountable to as well as a blanket acceptance of any policy passed by the EU and thats 'project fear' whenever it's brought up', huh?


We cannot 'leave at any time' - once we are part of it the notion of us 'leaving' would have to be voted on by all member states.

Read that again - the notion of us 'leaving' would have to be voted on by all member states.
You think that would happen in a million years given the current EU member states reactions to us wanting out now?!?

France threatened to send every migrant in calais across the channel and shut of trade, Spain threatened to cut off trade and seize back gibraltar (start a war with us), EU policymakers threatened to cut off trade with all EU member states; Thank feth that's all they can do right now - imagine what kind of 'coercion' would be levelled at us when they have control over our policy of law?


The good thing about a BREXIT is that if we get cold feet we can join at any time we want to.

important bit: any time we want to.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:

Zond wrote:
Meh, got to do something to break up the fearful doom and gloom in the echo chamber.

This place really has become an echo chamber hasn't it. Anyone with a hint of remain sentiment gets shot down as we saw a few pages back. It also make me laugh when all the brexiters talk about project fear without a hint of irony, while at the same time warning of an eu army/super state, and being forced to integrate more. Let alone all the nonsense spouted about how many immigrants could be coming in the next few years.

We can leave at any time we want if things get dodgy, this isn't a one off choice. We don't even need a referendum, all we need is a parliamentary act saying we are leaving. Simples. Right now there is no eu army, there is no third reich style super state, and net migration from the eu is around 150000. For perspective that's around 0.25 percent of the population. If that's putting a strain on public services, then perhaps the problem is with the capacity in our public services, not the people using them.

1. Please define "shot down". This is a public forum, and people are free to disagree with you. Don't like people disagreeing with your opinion? Don't post here then.

2. Warnings about an "EU army" and further integratiion are not fear mongering, these are actual proposals and plans being put forward right now. The Five Presidents Report lays out their plans for future integration in the next few years.

3. Net immigration is running at 300,000 a year. Several more countries are on track to join the EU, including Turkey, which is MASSIVE and quickly becoming an Islamist superstate, and its entire population will have the right to immigrate to this country. Just exactly how are complaints about this "nonsense"?

4. Yes, we can leave without a referendum if a Government makes the decision to leave and pushes it through Parliament. But thats never going to happen, because no prominent parliamentary party is in favour of leaving. Hence the surge in support for Eurosceptics like UKIP in recent years. At least a vote to Leave in this referendum will send a clear message to the political class that they're on the wrong side of the issue.

1. I've no problem with people disagreeing with me, in fact I welcome it, however I don't welcome harassing behaviour or unpleasantness, there's no need for it, I'm sure we are all capable of having a reasoned discussion without getting insanely tribal about things. There was a user a couple of pages ago that was harangued by several users on the Brexit side. It reminded me of the many cybernats that plagued forums in the run up to the up to the Scottish independence vote a couple of years ago. I wasn't around here then, but there were other forums I visited where things became most unpleasant.

2. Net migration is 300,000 just around half of that is from the eu. Either way it's still a minuscule percentage of the population, we are in no way "overrun" the strain on things like the NHS, the police and councils are far more to do with austerity measures, and poor planning regards to social care provision, than a few thousand people from Poland.

Turkey isn't yet meeting the requirements needed to join the European Union. For a start, it's practically a dictatorship, so it doesn't meet the necessary requirements on democracy etc. Among other issues. Turkey, in short, is a mess.

So it's by no means assured that turkey will join, ergo the leave side are very much scaremongering about this by proclaiming Turkey are on the cusp of joining. It's very much in the Farrage handbook of scaremongering on immigrants. Remember when he told us 25 million Romanians were going to turn up as soon as we opened the borders? Where are these people?

4. The political class by the by, will do what they think is best for the country, we might not always agree with that, but at the end of the day they have their own self interests at heart, and that includes getting as many people as possible to vote for them. Could it possibly be, that the major political parties, all of them, are acutely aware that the best way to get as many people as possible to vote for them is by staying in a beneficial European Union? Yes support for UKIP has risen, but to date they have just ONE sitting MP. If the population as a majority felt SO strongly about leaving, I'm certain they would have more.
Leading us into a European superstate is unlikely to be on the agenda of either the Conservative or Labour Parties, politicians on the whole don't like ceding their own power to other people. As a rule they tend to try and accrue as much of it as possible.

Now I won't pretend that there are some perseusive arguments for leaving, the cost of the beraucracy for is a good example, as is their treatment of countries like Greece. But frankly the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks for me. I have no intention on voting based on the fevered dreams of what the European Union may become, I will vote on how it is now.

Right now we have a collective ability to do good things for people across the continent, we have a big say in what laws are made by the European Union (9/10 laws are passed with the agreement of British MEPs) we have access to a massive free market and I can, should I choose, live anywhere on the continent unempeeded. When I eventually get my business off the ground I can sell my produce to 500 million people without paying import/export duties, My sisters in laws can retire to France without the need to worry about visas or red tape, I can go and stay in their house for as long as I want, my cousin can go and live in Prague with his girlfriend, my family in Ireland can visit me without filling in visa declarations, and I can visit them too. Heck I could go and live with them should I choose.

Thanks to EU red tape, I can eat French meat safe in the knowledge that it's been produced in a safe manner, I can drink German beer knowing that it's not 10% bleach, and I can drive an Italian car knowing that it meets a good safety standard. Now some may argue that this red tape is stuff that we could easily implement our selves, but I would say to them, that they don't understand the power of collective bargaining. If we made a law saying our people had the right to holiday pay, what's to stop Holland from saying to companies "Look we don't make companies pay holiday pay here, set up your factory in Rotterdam instead of Hull"

If the price for that is letting in a few thousand people, (who by the way contribute more taxes than they take out in services) then so be it. I'm not going to let the likes of Cameron perseude me to vote in based on a hypothetical WW3 or that fop Boris perseude me based on dubious claims about our democracy and a Reich style superstate. Neither should anyone else. Ignore the tub thumpers and look at what you benefit from, and what you don't benefit from. Whichever way you decide to vote, don't be taken in by the exaggerations and lies of either campaign.

I can honestly say that neither campaign has had any effect whatsoever on my voting intentions. I'd already decided I wanted out of the EU a decade ago. Nothing since then has changed my mind, in fact the previous 10 years have only solidified my decision. So no, I have not been fooled by anybody's lies and exaggeration.

What you're advocating is essentially giving up Liberty for Security. You like the benefits of EU membership like product regulation, but in the process you're giving up liberties, i.e. your democratic influence and power to decide who governs us. As SirDonlad says, Democracy gets weaker with every degree of separation between the electorate and the people in charge. We can vote out a British government, but what if we dislike the laws being passed by the European government? What chance do we have of ever voting them out?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I can honestly say that neither campaign has had any effect whatsoever on my voting intentions. I'd already decided I wanted out of the EU a decade ago. Nothing since then has changed my mind, in fact the previous 10 years have only solidified my decision.

So no, I have not been fooled by anybody's lies and exaggeration.

Good for you.

 General Kroll wrote:

Now I won't pretend that there are some perseusive arguments for leaving, the cost of the beraucracy for is a good example, as is their treatment of countries like Greece. But frankly the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks for me. I have no intention on voting based on the fevered dreams of what the European Union may become,

What a remarkably short-termist perspective. One can only hope that you don't utilise the same method of planning when it comes to borrowing credit.

As to 'fevered', I'm sure the Five Presidents will appreciate your description of their intended (and clearly laid out) aims. I certainly agree with you!

 General Kroll wrote:

Spoiler:

1. I've no problem with people disagreeing with me, in fact I welcome it, however I don't welcome harassing behaviour or unpleasantness, there's no need for it, I'm sure we are all capable of having a reasoned discussion without getting insanely tribal about things. There was a user a couple of pages ago that was harangued by several users on the Brexit side. It reminded me of the many cybernats that plagued forums in the run up to the up to the Scottish independence vote a couple of years ago. I wasn't around here then, but there were other forums I visited where things became most unpleasant.

2. Net migration is 300,000 just around half of that is from the eu. Either way it's still a minuscule percentage of the population, we are in no way "overrun" the strain on things like the NHS, the police and councils are far more to do with austerity measures, and poor planning regards to social care provision, than a few thousand people from Poland.

Turkey isn't yet meeting the requirements needed to join the European Union. For a start, it's practically a dictatorship, so it doesn't meet the necessary requirements on democracy etc. Among other issues. Turkey, in short, is a mess.

So it's by no means assured that turkey will join, ergo the leave side are very much scaremongering about this by proclaiming Turkey are on the cusp of joining. It's very much in the Farrage handbook of scaremongering on immigrants. Remember when he told us 25 million Romanians were going to turn up as soon as we opened the borders? Where are these people?

4. The political class by the by, will do what they think is best for the country, we might not always agree with that, but at the end of the day they have their own self interests at heart, and that includes getting as many people as possible to vote for them. Could it possibly be, that the major political parties, all of them, are acutely aware that the best way to get as many people as possible to vote for them is by staying in a beneficial European Union? Yes support for UKIP has risen, but to date they have just ONE sitting MP. If the population as a majority felt SO strongly about leaving, I'm certain they would have more.
Leading us into a European superstate is unlikely to be on the agenda of either the Conservative or Labour Parties, politicians on the whole don't like ceding their own power to other people. As a rule they tend to try and accrue as much of it as possible.

Now I won't pretend that there are some perseusive arguments for leaving, the cost of the beraucracy for is a good example, as is their treatment of countries like Greece. But frankly the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks for me. I have no intention on voting based on the fevered dreams of what the European Union may become, I will vote on how it is now.

Right now we have a collective ability to do good things for people across the continent, we have a big say in what laws are made by the European Union (9/10 laws are passed with the agreement of British MEPs) we have access to a massive free market and I can, should I choose, live anywhere on the continent unempeeded. When I eventually get my business off the ground I can sell my produce to 500 million people without paying import/export duties, My sisters in laws can retire to France without the need to worry about visas or red tape, I can go and stay in their house for as long as I want, my cousin can go and live in Prague with his girlfriend, my family in Ireland can visit me without filling in visa declarations, and I can visit them too. Heck I could go and live with them should I choose.

Thanks to EU red tape, I can eat French meat safe in the knowledge that it's been produced in a safe manner, I can drink German beer knowing that it's not 10% bleach, and I can drive an Italian car knowing that it meets a good safety standard. Now some may argue that this red tape is stuff that we could easily implement our selves, but I would say to them, that they don't understand the power of collective bargaining. If we made a law saying our people had the right to holiday pay, what's to stop Holland from saying to companies "Look we don't make companies pay holiday pay here, set up your factory in Rotterdam instead of Hull"

If the price for that is letting in a few thousand people, (who by the way contribute more taxes than they take out in services) then so be it. I'm not going to let the likes of Cameron perseude me to vote in based on a hypothetical WW3 or that fop Boris perseude me based on dubious claims about our democracy and a Reich style superstate. Neither should anyone else. Ignore the tub thumpers and look at what you benefit from, and what you don't benefit from. Whichever way you decide to vote, don't be taken in by the exaggerations and lies of either campaign.

Good, don't let people 'persuade' you either way when lies and fear are involved, anything you post up here is destined for scrutiny by all who come here and only truth should remain.


So, to that 'scrutiny' bit....

Turkeys membership is being fast-tracked as part of a deal to act as a 'buffer zone' against the refugees which will be free to continue to Europe as soon as turkey becomes a full member of the EU.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/turkeys-president-no-refugee-deal-without-eu-visa-182011347.html

Erdogan added that if further bilateral talks on the visa issue didn't yield results, "the readmission agreement" on refugees wouldn't be approved by Turkey.

The refugee issue is coming to a head in Germany and merkel is stuck trying to delay the ramifications of the issue till after the uk referendum (and the Greek bail-out too) while trying to con the turks into jumping into the arrangement with both feet before the EU commits to it's side of the deal; obviously with the intention of screwing them after the fact.

When i was looking at migrating to europe i had to claim citizenship, register my address with local authorities, have a bank account with a defined amount of money in it and learn the local language (which was tested at the final stages of the citizenship tests) in order to move there.
Nobody will stop you buying a holiday house in Europe, but they have a big issue with people (brits mainly) living there without integrating properly. You may not need to get a visa but that doesn't mean you have no paperwork to do.
Strange really when you look at the amount of countries which can send citizens here visa-free..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_the_United_Kingdom
....including the EU.

EU red tape did not stop decaying romanian horse-meat being found in our beef supply chain.
The repercussions are what keeps the Germans from putting 10% bleach in their beer - they are rather proud of their beer and their reputation for it.
The biggest safety scare to hit Italian cars was with the ferrari 458 italia where adhesive which was too close to the exhast caught fire was made using EU red tape. Second is the fiat 500 also built using EU red tape.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2271796/Fiat-500-named-worst-car-passenger-injuries-U-S-study-claims-bigger-better-protect-crash.html


I'm interested in truth, honour and integrity in my governance and i see none in the EU.
We say we want to leave and they resond with threats - these people do not deserve the power they are courting.

Our politicians aren't much better, but i can make life hard for the people calling the shots while they're in my country - i know where my local MP lives and if he makes life difficult for me then i can make life difficult for him; accountability which the EU cannot provide me.

 Ketara wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:

Now I won't pretend that there are some perseusive arguments for leaving, the cost of the beraucracy for is a good example, as is their treatment of countries like Greece. But frankly the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks for me. I have no intention on voting based on the fevered dreams of what the European Union may become,

What a remarkably short-termist perspective. One can only hope that you don't utilise the same method of planning when it comes to borrowing credit.

As to 'fevered', I'm sure the Five Presidents will appreciate your description of their intended (and clearly laid out) aims. I certainly agree with you!

What on Earth is short termist about section you've quoted? I weight up the benefits and the draw backs. There's nothing short termist about that. There's also nothing short termist about ignoring the doom mongers who seem to make incredible leaps of logic when developing their "what ifs"

Britain has a say in what happens to the EU. A big say. None of this will happen without us having a veto on it. We aren't "sleep walking into federalism" as some would have us believe.

As I've said, voting to stay in doesn't lock us onto a track that we can't at any point leave. No one can force us to stay in the EU if it changes into something we don't like.

 SirDonlad wrote:

Good, don't let people 'persuade' you either way when lies and fear are involved, anything you post up here is destined for scrutiny by all who come here and only truth should remain.


So, to that 'scrutiny' bit....

Turkeys membership is being fast-tracked as part of a deal to act as a 'buffer zone' against the refugees which will be free to continue to Europe as soon as turkey becomes a full member of the EU.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/turkeys-president-no-refugee-deal-without-eu-visa-182011347.html

Erdogan added that if further bilateral talks on the visa issue didn't yield results, "the readmission agreement" on refugees wouldn't be approved by Turkey.

That has nothing to do with EU membership, only Turkey trying to use refugees as a bargaining chip for visa changes. Turkey won't be getting near EU membership until Cyprus is sorted out, which mother the Greek nor Turkish public will want, as neither side will want to give an inch.

The refugee issue is coming to a head in Germany and merkel is stuck trying to delay the ramifications of the issue till after the uk referendum (and the Greek bail-out too) while trying to con the turks into jumping into the arrangement with both feet before the EU commits to it's side of the deal; obviously with the intention of screwing them after the fact.

When i was looking at migrating to europe i had to claim citizenship, register my address with local authorities, have a bank account with a defined amount of money in it and learn the local language (which was tested at the final stages of the citizenship tests) in order to move there.
Nobody will stop you buying a holiday house in Europe, but they have a big issue with people (brits mainly) living there without integrating properly. You may not need to get a visa but that doesn't mean you have no paperwork to do.
Strange really when you look at the amount of countries which can send citizens here visa-free..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_the_United_Kingdom
....including the EU.

You can move, live and work in any EU country, with no restrictions and be treated like any other citizen of the country. You do not need any paperwork beyond what any citizen of the country needs. It's only different if you want to claim citizenship, which does nothing. Treating people from any EU country differently to locals is a clear breach of EU law.

EU red tape did not stop decaying romanian horse-meat being found in our beef supply chain.
The repercussions are what keeps the Germans from putting 10% bleach in their beer - they are rather proud of their beer and their reputation for it.
The biggest safety scare to hit Italian cars was with the ferrari 458 italia where adhesive which was too close to the exhast caught fire was made using EU red tape. Second is the fiat 500 also built using EU red tape.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2271796/Fiat-500-named-worst-car-passenger-injuries-U-S-study-claims-bigger-better-protect-crash.html

Those have nothing to do with EU law at all. The horse meat scandal had nothing to do with EU red tape. People broke the law. Not EU law, but British law, and British checks did not stop it.

The cars have nothing to do with EU law. Recalls and issues happen all the time on cars, built all over the world. Being in or out of the EU makes no difference.

I'm interested in truth, honour and integrity in my governance and i see none in the EU.
We say we want to leave and they resond with threats - these people do not deserve the power they are courting.

Our politicians aren't much better, but i can make life hard for the people calling the shots while they're in my country - i know where my local MP lives and if he makes life difficult for me then i can make life difficult for him; accountability which the EU cannot provide me.

Why not? You have an MEP same as you have an MP. Why not do the same with them?

Your arguments are nothing to do with the EU. You are just picking random negative things and trying to blame the EU, without even making any argument as to why the EU is in any way responsible, or not telling the truth, such as with Turkey and free movement.

 General Kroll wrote:

Now I won't pretend that there are some perseusive arguments for leaving, the cost of the beraucracy for is a good example, as is their treatment of countries like Greece. But frankly the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks for me. I have no intention on voting based on the fevered dreams of what the European Union may become,

In other words, "I got mine so everyone else can shove it".

Short sighted and selfish.

No one can force us to stay in the EU if it changes into something we don't like.

For the last few decades, the political elites in the Western World seem to be more and more detached from the ordinary people that elect them. Now, there are various reasons for this, and although the EU shares some of the blame for that, it's not solely responsible for this situation.

None the less, I get the impression that European and EU elites would press on with full integration, regardless of what ordinary voters want.

There seems to be this attitude of we know what's best for you.