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 Mr. Burning wrote:

Apparently its a lie that Turkey will be joining the EU.......

Given that the UK has been Turkey's most ardent supporter, it will be a lot harder for the Turks to join after Brexit.

 zedmeister wrote:

Cheap flights to Malaga wills till be there if we Leave. That's dependent on the budget airlines and not whether you're in the EU zone or not. A quick check shows that a flight to Sweden is roughly the same as a flight to Norway. Or a flight to Morocco is about the same as a flight to Italy.

This is true.

The City will be fine should we leave. It deals with worldwide commerce, not just EU commerce.

This, perhaps not. I suspect Britain will ultimately retain its financial pre-eminence in Europe, but it will no longer be something we can guarantee, and it will be a lot rockier as places like Vienna try and lure business away. Certainly, saying it will be 'fine' simplifies an extremely complex market and matter.

"My Granny" could still live in Andalusia. Plenty of British expats live in non-eu countries and still get healthcare and pension benefits. They'd just need to take extra steps to become residents (something they should really do if they're planning on permanently live in an EU country anyway)

This is true and yet not true. Yes, people will still be able to relocate. But it won't be automatic, and there will be no guarantee of approval. In the same way I can't just move to Australia, a country doesn't always take you in and let you stay, or give you the chance to apply for citizenship. Usually you require independent wealth and a job there before most countries lay out the welcome mat. Under the EU, there's no need for such things.

Granted on the ease of studying in an EU country. But again, not insurmountable.

This is potentially one of the easier ones to solve, academics are quite good at slipping around borders. It should be relatively easy to make arrangements for students.

Peace and prosperity NATO is the reason that peace exists. Also, there's the small matter of those attacks in Belgium and Germany as well as the Ukraine debacle. And, as for prosperity, please tell that to Greece. Or Italy. Or Spain. Finally, that "help" comes at a price as Greece discovered.

Yes and no. NATO and communism is the reason we all drew together, and keeps us safe from direct external attack. But the EU has helped to keep us together. If the EU disintegrates, it's all too possible to see repeats of Kosovo or the breakup of Yugoslavia. The borders of Europe are firmer than they have been in a long time, but the rise of the Far Right isn't purely due to the EU, rather in spite of it. Whilst inherently anti-democratic towards anti-capitalist or facist groups, the EU has helped to suppress such groups in most cases (with a few obvious exceptions).

That said, we are unlikely to see any issues here in Britain if the European project fails. Britain is possibly the most politically stable place in the world. But it helps to keep a wider perspective.

I agree that nations need help, but shovelling cash at poorer states is not necessarily a good way to go. And we should be able to choose, as a nation, whom we help and how we help them.

For a third time, yes and no.

Theoretically, spreading the wealth helps spread political stability, as well as creating more markets for our advanced consumer goods and services. That said, it hasn't panned out much that way so far for us (we still export more outside of the EU than to it), but there's an inevitable trend in that direction, it'll just take more time.

As for the supposed advantages of collective bargaining that the EU gives, this picture is how I percieve it:

Spoiler:

I agree with this. Our slice of the cake might be smaller, but it'll be more comprised of things we personally want, as opposed to all of Europe.

 notprop wrote:
Indeed.

 treslibras wrote:


I guess, in the end, 95% of Brits will make an emotional decision, rationalized by rather one-sided "proper" arguments. So you just need to chose "Do I feel better as a British AND as a European (with all the downsides) or to be be British only (with all the downsides)?

Because Brits cannot make a rational decision?

I think Ketara showed a lot more rationability than you in his response - without accepting all my points nor giving up his position.
So I think some Brits can make a reasoned and informed decision, it is just that I highly doubt most will. Which would be the same for Germans or French, or Belgians (definitely for Belgians! ). I think it much more attitudes such as your own or zedmeister that poison the discussion, being defensive all the time, sitting on a highly manichean point of view (us vs. them), trying to "eliminate" every point that is being brought forward without proper knowledge of economics or polities (not politics). So if you wanted to show me that more Brits will vote rationally, you have not made a good point, I am afraid.

Again, I am not saying that you should not leave or that you have no right, or that Britains well-being will be decided upon by the European question alone.
I find it sad, that the average Brit does not seem to see the advantages besides the - non-trivial! - disadvantages. But that could be said about the average German or French as well.

That is precisely why most of my friends (French, Belgian, German, Spanish) now say "Have them leave and we will all learn a lot from it."

Ketara, take that fence out of your rear and stop all this yes and no malarkey

 treslibras wrote:
[ I think it much more attitudes such as your own or zedmeister that poison the discussion, being defensive all the time, sitting on a highly manichean point of view (us vs. them), trying to "eliminate" every point that is being brought forward without proper knowledge of economics or polities (not politics).

Poison? Really? You made some points, I made a half hearted attempt at rebutting them. Isn't that more akin to a debate. I wasn't bashing or ranting and I'm sure I have simplified or got some confused - Ketara made a better job of rebutting my ramblings and he's voting Leave (or was).

Poisoning the debate would be chucking around deliberate untruths, blatant character assassinations and the like. This is an emotional and political decision for us and things will get heated (as with anything to do with politics). Hardly poisonous though.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Ketara, take that fence out of your rear and stop all this yes and no malarkey

I do seem to have stirred up the hornets nest slightly (ladies, you're both pretty!) Perhaps I should go back to researching pre-WW1 armaments instead of posting on Dakka...

There's epic fails and then there's epic fails.

The German finance minister says no access to the single market if it's BREXIT.

God almighty...

Even if he's right, does he honestly think the best way to get an in vote is a for a German politician to lecture the British public, given the historical past between Britain and Germany...

Words fail me. He must be a Farage plant

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/10/no-single-market-access-for-uk-after-brexit-wolfgang-schauble-says

 treslibras wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:
It’s been the case for awhile that all the remain camp have been able to do is attack the people of the leave camp – this has just become more apparent when it’s in a concentrated block like a TV debate.

It’s a failing strategy however, if all you can do is attack you’re opposition then people will start to think that you can’t actually come up with a good argument to remain.

I only watched part of the debate, but what I did see was out showing how a vote to leave could be good for the country – and in yelling that a vote out would be good for Boris, what nobody seemed to be doing was showing why a vote to remain would be a good thing for anyone.

Well, for starters, you can fly to Mallorca for 40 quid instead of 200. You get to keep The City with all the money and surplus it creates for London and the UK as a whole. Your granny can live in Andalucia and still get UK pensions and access to health care without extra costs. You can easily go to other European countries, study there, work there and come back anytime you like. You will also be part of a visionary project to create a zone of peace and prosperity where for centuries military conflicts and civil unrest was an everyday part of a lot of peoples lives. If your country was in dire need of help, it would receive it.
You are also working on developping poorer European countries, making them less susceptible to crime, civil unrest or even war in the process. You can adress international issues through an international system that is a bit more than just "the heads of all involved states".
You can buy European wares cheaper. Your business will profit a lot from having more contintental European customers. Your business also gets required workers more easily. Your culture is getting infused with new ideas faster. If Germany wants to push their car industry further into the world, you actually might have a veto in that - or get something nice and shiny YOUR government wants in return for being OK with it.

It think that are just some of the benefits.

Of course there are the damages of leaving, as well, and there are important negative sides with staying, which have already been discussed with various states of rationality.

I guess, in the end, 95% of Brits will make an emotional decision, rationalized by rather one-sided "proper" arguments. So you just need to chose "Do I feel better as a British AND as a European (with all the downsides) or to be be British only (with all the downsides)?

My suggestion: Some time ago (in the 1970s), British people (or at least their leaders) thought it was a brilliant idea to become more European. 1. Ask yourself why. 2. See where your country has gone from that point on. 3. Make a decision if you want to continue that way, or at least keep what you got out of it, or not.

I know most people have already pointed out your flaws, but let me do the same:

Whilst some of those are good point some are just silly – please explain why a flight to Majorca would go up from £40 to £200, whilst there MAY be some tax charged I doubt this would be 400%.

My granny would continue to get her UK pension living in the EU regardless of if we are in the EU or not, the same as she DOES actually get this living in the US, so that’s not a valid argument either.

Cost of goods will go up – maybe, or maybe we’ll just buy all the stuff that your EU bans (I certainly don’t care how bendy my cucumbers are) and the prices will actually go down, or maybe we’ll get a free trade agreement with China and get our stuff cheap without import taxes, the truth is we won’t know until we leave.

Free healthcare within the EU I will give you, this is a benefit of membership and one I’ll be sad to see go. That said travel health insurance is normally about £40 (assuming you don’t get this free with your bank for example) so it’s not going to hit peoples finances too much. I will give you that this IS a valid argument to remain however.

Helping the poor countries of the EU? Do you really see what the EU is doing to Greece as helping it? Are you that deluded?

We get to keep the City? You mean it’s just going to disappear if we leave? We’ve managed to keep the city so far because we’ve managed to PREVENT the EU from including the UK in it’s over regulation of the city – if we leave we can ignore the few regulations that we were unable to prevent. That’s a reason for it to stay NOT leave. They are in the city because they want to avoid the EU regulation in the first place a vote to leave is hardly going to see them rushing to go to the more regulated place.

Peace – cause this is entirely the EU, despite the fact it was we had 30 years of peace before the EU started, it’s nothing to do with the fact that people became fed up of going to war or the introduction of NATO and the UN.

Being able to work in Germany – because immigration didn’t exist before the EU, oh no. It may be easier to go work there, but I’ve never heard of any modern country turning away anyone who can help it’s economy.

Interesting you should bring up the vote in 1970 also. The majority of the people who voted at that time are now predicted to vote OUT – clearly those who remember a time before the EU think that we are better off out of it – that is actually one of the biggest reasons that made me go with OUT.

So you have made 1 good claim in all that, hardly a ringing endorsement – but it is 1 more than the people campaigning to remain are making.

My original point wasn't that there are no good reasons to stay in the EU, of cause there are some - it's just that the benefits are so far outweighed by what we lose that even those campaigning to remain in have given up giving reasons for us to remain and have started to attacking those who are showing the benefits of leaving. It's not the right track to win the referendum and if anything pushes those undecided towards Brexit.

 Ketara wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Ketara, take that fence out of your rear and stop all this yes and no malarkey

I do seem to have stirred up the hornets nest slightly (ladies, you're both pretty!) Perhaps I should go back to researching pre-WW1 armaments instead of posting on Dakka...

Nah, keep posting here. It stops me rambling

 treslibras wrote:

 notprop wrote:
Indeed.

 treslibras wrote:


I guess, in the end, 95% of Brits will make an emotional decision, rationalized by rather one-sided "proper" arguments. So you just need to chose "Do I feel better as a British AND as a European (with all the downsides) or to be be British only (with all the downsides)?

Because Brits cannot make a rational decision?

I think Ketara showed a lot more rationability than you in his response - without accepting all my points nor giving up his position.
So I think some Brits can make a reasoned and informed decision, it is just that I highly doubt most will. Which would be the same for Germans or French, or Belgians (definitely for Belgians! ). I think it much more attitudes such as your own or zedmeister that poison the discussion, being defensive all the time, sitting on a highly manichean point of view (us vs. them), trying to "eliminate" every point that is being brought forward without proper knowledge of economics or polities (not politics). So if you wanted to show me that more Brits will vote rationally, you have not made a good point, I am afraid.

Again, I am not saying that you should not leave or that you have no right, or that Britains well-being will be decided upon by the European question alone.
I find it sad, that the average Brit does not seem to see the advantages besides the - non-trivial! - disadvantages. But that could be said about the average German or French as well.

That is precisely why most of my friends (French, Belgian, German, Spanish) now say "Have them leave and we will all learn a lot from it."

While I greatly respect my friend Ketara he comes from a more Academic background than my own as Commercial Manager in London. We both see the same problem but from different aspects and our opinions are coloured by than. In general though I don't think there is so much as a cigarette (cigarette) paper between us on this one.

The few points you did make that weren't tacit insults (you were nice enough to number them) were addressed and you have ignored those so you seem to have come to this topic seeming out of concern of the UK undermining the creaking EU project.

If as you say you and your friends have such a leis affair attitude then why do you feel the need to address the subject?

Oh no far from irrational Brits I think the lady doth protest to much on this one and have merely revealed your own fears of the UK leaving.

Do you hear that JCB back leaving? That's comforting to know. They're one of our genuine success stories.

I can provide no sources on this, but somebody on twitter was saying that the last minute rush of voters to register could be problematic, because they have to be verified at local council level.

10 days left + 1 million new voters to verify = clusterfeth.

And Vote Leave may seek a judicial review on this.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I can provide no sources on this, but somebody on twitter was saying that the last minute rush of voters to register could be problematic, because they have to be verified at local council level.

10 days left + 1 million new voters to verify = clusterfeth.

And Vote Leave may seek a judicial review on this.

I think whoever loses will seek a judicial review. Whichever way the vote goes, somebody will end up spitting their dummy out.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I can provide no sources on this, but somebody on twitter was saying that the last minute rush of voters to register could be problematic, because they have to be verified at local council level.

10 days left + 1 million new voters to verify = clusterfeth.

And Vote Leave may seek a judicial review on this.

I think whoever loses will seek a judicial review. Whichever way the vote goes, somebody will end up spitting their dummy out.

I don't want unelected judges ruling on who won or lost a democratic referendum, so let's hope it never comes to that.

A fair election was too much to ask for.

Don't worry, UK. If that relationship doesn't work out, we'll be here. Waiting...

You know you want to...

I do like the fact that the founder of vote leave has been threatening a lawsuit over the deadline extension. Because British voices getting their say is good if it involves leaving europe, but is problematic if those voices disagree with him.

 kronk wrote:
Don't worry, UK. If that relationship doesn't work out, we'll be here. Waiting...

You know you want to...

America? The USA is yesterday's news. It's the People's Republic of China for me


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Goliath wrote:
I do like the fact that the founder of vote leave has been threatening a lawsuit over the deadline extension. Because British voices getting their say is good if it involves leaving europe, but is problematic if those voices disagree with him.

I think the whole thing has been badly handled - it's very shambolic. As I said earlier, I'm pretty sure that these new voters have to be verified at local council level, so there is potential for abuse.

It's not as though the Electoral Commission couldn't predict this - there was a last minute surge to vote for the Scottish Independence referendum.

Isnt it typical though?

The start of the campaign saw registration for the election being brought up, specifically amongst younger voters.

Now, come the deadline, which was mentioned again. there are people who cannot log on to register because thousands have left it too late.

Would it have been better to run a more high profile campaign for voter registration through out May? maybe but I reckon the result would be the same.

All in all though, tough tits if you are not registered by now.

That's actually my sentiments as well. It's not like you didn't have plenty of time, and it takes minutes to do.

The worst thing is though, I feel like we'll never get a fair answer to this question now because they've ballsed it up so badly.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
That's actually my sentiments as well. It's not like you didn't have plenty of time, and it takes minutes to do.

The worst thing is though, I feel like we'll never get a fair answer to this question now because they've ballsed it up so badly.

No, the worse thing is that the ones on the loosing side will bang on about registration being ballsed up. It hasn't been

Actually are there any figures for how many previously unregistered voters did register when able to do so?....need to look this up....Found it 1.65 million registered to vote in the lead up to the deadline.

This is against 7.5 million being incorrectly or un registered (2014 figures). So the problem effects every election which takes place.

The problem with the extended time (to Mr at least) is less that it was extended and more by how long.

Why does the fact that the website went down for 1 hour justify an extra 48 hour extention?

Everyone knew the rules - if you miss the deadline this is your fault and we shouldn't be pandering to you. To me this just goes into the same bracket as most of what the in crowd does, they feel that they don't have to play by the rules.

In other news, anyone seen the honours list? Makes you wonder how many of them top CEOs actually truly believe in the EU and how many just wanted a knighthood.

It's almost over. Thank God it's almost over. The end of the road is in sight

Had to laugh at Donald Tusk's end of civilization warning if the UK BREXIT's

And the remain camp must be bricking it if the latest polls are anything to go by.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
It's almost over. Thank God it's almost over. The end of the road is in sight

Had to laugh at Donald Tusk's end of civilization warning if the UK BREXIT's

And the remain camp must be bricking it if the latest polls are anything to go by.

Don't be complacent though. A poll does not win a referreundum. Quite funny to watch the remains panic though.

Finally, this picture perfectly encapsulates the constant barrage of hyperbole and scare stories from Remain:

 zedmeister wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
It's almost over. Thank God it's almost over. The end of the road is in sight

Had to laugh at Donald Tusk's end of civilization warning if the UK BREXIT's

And the remain camp must be bricking it if the latest polls are anything to go by.

Don't be complacent though. A poll does not win a referreundum. Quite funny to watch the remains panic though.

Finally, this picture perfectly encapsulates the constant barrage of hyperbole and scare stories from Remain:

Spoiler:

I like it.

I've seen similar images with the Titanic.

Got a leaflet through the door today.

"Don't let Farage speak for you!"

Excuse me, I like Nigel Farage and I voted for UKIP. Farage DOES speak for me.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Got a leaflet through the door today.

"Don't let Farage speak for you!"

Excuse me, I like Nigel Farage and I voted for UKIP. Farage DOES speak for me.

Farage deserves credit for helping to get a referendum, but if I'm being honest, I couldn't give two hoots for Farage or UKIP. Never the less, my decision to vote leave goes beyond party politics, so I suppose it's a moot point

Farage once said that he would quit politics once his goal of getting us out of the EU is achieved. Obviously his party has outgrown him, and will likely endure after his departure and maybe even after a BREXIT (though a name change would be in order).

I don't view UKIP as a potential governing party, I view them as a sort of pressure group. The mainstream parties aren't listening to the electorate, so the electorate is turning to alternatives like the SNP and UKIP (who got more votes than the SNP ). UKIP have done a great job of getting and keeping British membership of the EU on the political agenda, and being a general thorn in the side for the Tories. We wouldn't have gotten a referendum without UKIP undermining support for the Tories. Parties like UKIP and the SNP force the bigger parties to adapt and change their policies or risk electoral annihilation.

I live in a safe Labour seat (Sedgefield, Tony Blair's former constituency) and I detest Labour so voting is somewhat pointless. Theres no point in voting for the Tories (who I also detest, but view as the lesser of two evils) because they have no chance of unseating Phil Wilson. So all I can do is abstain or make a (somewhat futile) statement by casting my vote for a party like UKIP and adding my vote to their national tally.


Basically, by voting for UKIP I hope to force the likes of the Tories or Labour to change.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Farage once said that he would quit politics once his goal of getting us out of the EU is achieved. Obviously his party has outgrown him, and will likely endure after his departure and maybe even after a BREXIT (though a name change would be in order).

I don't view UKIP as a potential governing party, I view them as a sort of pressure group. The mainstream parties aren't listening to the electorate, so the electorate is turning to alternatives like the SNP and UKIP (who got more votes than the SNP ). UKIP have done a great job of getting and keeping British membership of the EU on the political agenda, and being a general thorn in the side for the Tories. We wouldn't have gotten a referendum without UKIP undermining support for the Tories. Parties like UKIP and the SNP force the bigger parties to adapt and change their policies or risk electoral annihilation.

I live in a safe Labour seat (Sedgefield, Tony Blair's former constituency) and I detest Labour so voting is somewhat pointless. Theres no point in voting for the Tories (who I also detest, but view as the lesser of two evils) because they have no chance of unseating Phil Wilson. So all I can do is abstain or make a (somewhat futile) statement by casting my vote for a party like UKIP and adding my vote to their national tally.


Basically, by voting for UKIP I hope to force the likes of the Tories or Labour to change.

I understand your rational for voting UKIP, but as for Farage, I think he likes the spotlight too much, so even if it is BREXIT, expect to see UKIP continue, or morph into a new centre-right party, with Farage at the head, to rival the Tories.

I like that pic. Very app!

If this was the beginning of the end of the EU, what might the future hold for Europe?