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 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

To say that the Third Reich will return without the EU is nonsense.

Oh, sorry, I misconstrued you, I thought you said Europe was "fine" before the EU. Must have mis-read the letters f i n & e.

So we can take it that you thought having Poland, Ukraine etc under occupation by a totalitarian state - which still resents their involvement with Europe - is fine? Have you ever hear of the Stasi?

That's why Poland in particular is worried about the "security problem" of Brexit. It was the EU pushed for heavier sanctions once Putin invaded the Crimea, and the UK was at the forefront of the EU response - as it well should be, rather than retreating to our Island and waving the Cross of St George.

Hey MODs what going on?

There's a vote remain banner at the top of this webpage!!

I thought Yakface and Legoburner were neutral on this?

Get it sorted MODs

PS Is this a gentle hint to be a DCM, so that I won't be bothered by these ads?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Hey MODs what going on?

There's a vote remain banner at the top of this webpage!!

I thought Yakface and Legoburner were neutral on this?

Get it sorted MODs

PS Is this a gentle hint to be a DCM, so that I won't be bothered by these ads?

Excuse me sir, do you have a moment to talk about our Lord and Saviour AdBlock?

I can't see it. (All mods are DCMs too.)

The ads are paid for. If Leave want one they only have to dip into their campaign funds.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Hey MODs what going on?

There's a vote remain banner at the top of this webpage!!

I thought Yakface and Legoburner were neutral on this?

Get it sorted MODs

PS Is this a gentle hint to be a DCM, so that I won't be bothered by these ads?

Excuse me sir, do you have a moment to talk about our Lord and Saviour AdBlock?

Don't use adblock :( unless you want to donate to dakka?

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

To say that the Third Reich will return without the EU is nonsense.

Oh, sorry, I misconstrued you, I thought you said Europe was "fine" before the EU. Must have mis-read the letters f i n & e.

So we can take it that you thought having Poland, Ukraine etc under occupation by a totalitarian state - which still resents their involvement with Europe - is fine? Have you ever hear of the Stasi?

That's why Poland in particular is worried about the "security problem" of Brexit. It was the EU pushed for heavier sanctions once Putin invaded the Crimea, and the UK was at the forefront of the EU response - as it well should be, rather than retreating to our Island and waving the Cross of St George.

Nobody should let their vote, be it in or out, be decided on the basis of what might happen in another country after the referendum.

My number 1 concern is the future of this island.

And to add to my earlier point, I was merely trying to say that warfare, strife, peace prosperity etc etc have always been a part of humanity, and sadly, will probably always be with us. The presense or the absence of the EU won't change that aspect of humanity IMO.

We have peace and prosperity in Europe, and the Romans, centuries before, had it during the age of the 4 good emperors. The EU doesn't have the monopoly on this.

I have actually been considering becoming a DCM lately but I'm in and out of employment ATM (zero hours contracts). Maybe when i have a stable job.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I can't see it. (All mods are DCMs too.)

The ads are paid for. If Leave want one they only have to dip into their campaign funds.

This is a blantant attack on the official neutral position of dakkadakka.

I want a full explanation for this outrage!

Even dakka has been bought and sold for EU gold...I'm very disappointed


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 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Hey MODs what going on?

There's a vote remain banner at the top of this webpage!!

I thought Yakface and Legoburner were neutral on this?

Get it sorted MODs

PS Is this a gentle hint to be a DCM, so that I won't be bothered by these ads?

Excuse me sir, do you have a moment to talk about our Lord and Saviour AdBlock?

I think it's a sales pitch on dakka's behalf

Hey Do_I_Not_Like_That, if the UK leaves the EU, Nicola Sturgeon said she'd try and hold another Scottish independence vote.

Is that something you'd want again?

 obsidianaura wrote:
Hey Do_I_Not_Like_That, if the UK leaves the EU, Nicola Sturgeon said she'd try and hold another Scottish independence vote.

Is that something you'd want again?

Absolutely, but I think it would be too early for another Scottish referendum. Prime Minister Boris Johnson, and Chancellor of the exchequer, Nigel Farage, would probably make the case for Scottish independence.

 obsidianaura wrote:
Hey Do_I_Not_Like_That, if the UK leaves the EU, Nicola Sturgeon said she'd try and hold another Scottish independence vote.

Is that something you'd want again?

Considering he voted for Scottish Independence...yes?

Lol, maybe this whole EU referendum is an SNP trojan horse so they can get a second go.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 obsidianaura wrote:
Hey Do_I_Not_Like_That, if the UK leaves the EU, Nicola Sturgeon said she'd try and hold another Scottish independence vote.

Is that something you'd want again?

Absolutely, but I think it would be too early for another Scottish referendum. Prime Minister Boris Johnson, and Chancellor of the exchequer, Nigel Farage, would probably make the case for Scottish independence.

It'd make the case for voluntary extinction.

Scotland won't leave. Not with oil the price it's currently at.

But guys, a North Sea Economic Area, made up of the UK, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Iceland, and in a dream scenario Greenland, Holland and Ireland as well...a commercial arrangement that respects the sovereignty of all its member states.

We could build it.

 obsidianaura wrote:


I'm voting to stay in but even I'd have to disagree here. If the unelected EU is able to overrule and elected government then its not democracy.

How much of the EU is unelected Vs how much of the UK?

I don't want the Tory's to remove rights and things but if we vote for them in, then that's what we should get.

They got 36% of the vote. 64% of the population didn't want them.


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 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Nobody should let their vote, be it in or out, be decided on the basis of what might happen in another country after the referendum.

My number 1 concern is the future of this island.

What about indirect impacts on our island? If we allow Eastern Europe to destabilize (because Putin clearly wants it back), what's the fall-out going to be? How long before we have all of those refugees to house as well as the current flood? What if we get dragged into it?

What might happen in other countries will affect the future of this island.

Herzlos wrote:

 obsidianaura wrote:


I'm voting to stay in but even I'd have to disagree here. If the unelected EU is able to overrule and elected government then its not democracy.

How much of the EU is unelected Vs how much of the UK?

I don't want the Tory's to remove rights and things but if we vote for them in, then that's what we should get.

They got 36% of the vote. 64% of the population didn't want them.

Unfortunately the options at the polling stations were not THE TORRYS or NOT THE TORRYS

I don't know about proportions on the EU. They have some unelected people. We have no unelected people. It's my only real problem with the EU

 obsidianaura wrote:
Hey Do_I_Not_Like_That, if the UK leaves the EU, Nicola Sturgeon said she'd try and hold another Scottish independence vote.

Is that something you'd want again?

Definitely. If it gets us back into Europe and gets the tories to stop screwing us over, then I'd be all for it. The only concern then would be that Labour would never get a majority again without Scotland, so we'd be stuck with a shafted country as a neighbour. Our economy would boom if we were still in Europe too, as many companies would likely move north of the border.


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 obsidianaura wrote:
We have no unelected people.

Apart from the 790 hereditory Lords, and all of the unelected beurocrats that run stuff.

Herzlos wrote:

 obsidianaura wrote:


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 obsidianaura wrote:
We have no unelected people.

Apart from the 790 hereditory Lords, and all of the unelected beurocrats that run stuff.

Good point, actually. I repressed my memory of them.

If we do leave the EU the House of Lords needs to go next. Especially if the Torys are planning on spamming it with concervatives to get their own way. It's definitely not democratic.

 obsidianaura wrote:
...
I don't know about proportions on the EU. They have some unelected people. We have no unelected people. It's my only real problem with the EU

We can't make the EU get more democratic by leaving. If we want to make it more demoractic we should stay in and form a bloc with Germany, Denmark and show some leadership.

Not that the House of Lords can do anything. The House of Commons has the power to bypass the Lords at whim.


We also have a queen, we are a sucker for tradition.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 obsidianaura wrote:
...
I don't know about proportions on the EU. They have some unelected people. We have no unelected people. It's my only real problem with the EU

We can't make the EU get more democratic by leaving. If we want to make it more demoractic we should stay in and form a bloc with Germany, Denmark and show some leadership.

Agreed. Hopefully the remain side will win and then our MEPs go in and start kicking the EU's behinds into shape . I think we should be pushing for an EU health service and a combined military service. That'd save some money by distributing the cost more fairly. It'd be a nightmare to figure out who was in charge of that stuff though.


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 welshhoppo wrote:
Not that the House of Lords can do anything. The House of Commons has the power to bypass the Lords at whim.


We also have a queen, we are a sucker for tradition.

They stopped the plan to cut disabled peoples benefits though. I thought if they could have bypassed the house of lords they would have.

 obsidianaura wrote:


I don't know about proportions on the EU. They have some unelected people. We have no unelected people. It's my only real problem with the EU

The House of Lords is not a thing now?

They are in the Parliament Acts 1911 and 1949, they just don't use them that often. I think the last time they used one was to put the Hunting ban through.


It's kind of like a Parliamentary Suckerpunch, using it is kind of taboo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I found a list of the times it has been used.


The original form of the 1911 Act was used three times.[4] These were:

Government of Ireland Act 1914, which would have established a Home Rule government in Ireland; its implementation was blocked due to the First World War.
Welsh Church Act 1914, under which the Welsh part of the Church of England was disestablished in 1920, becoming the Church in Wales.
Parliament Act 1949, which amended the Parliament Act 1911 (discussed above).
The amended form of the 1911 Act has been used four times.[4] These were:

War Crimes Act 1991, which extended jurisdiction of UK courts to acts committed on behalf of Nazi Germany during the Second World War (the only time- to date- that the Parliament Acts have been used by a Conservative government).
European Parliamentary Elections Act 1999, which changed the system of elections to the European Parliament from first past the post to a form of proportional representation.
Sexual Offences (Amendment) Act 2000, which equalised the age of consent for male homosexual sexual activities with that for heterosexual and female homosexual sexual activities at 16.
Hunting Act 2004, which prohibited hare coursing and (subject to some exceptions) all hunting of wild mammals (particularly foxes) with dogs after early 2005.

 welshhoppo wrote:
They are in the Parliament Acts 1911 and 1949, they just don't use them that often. I think the last time they used one was to put the Hunting ban through.


It's kind of like a Parliamentary Suckerpunch, using it is kind of taboo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I found a list of the times it has been used.


The original form of the 1911 Act was used three times.[4] These were:

Government of Ireland Act 1914, which would have established a Home Rule government in Ireland; its implementation was blocked due to the First World War.
Welsh Church Act 1914, under which the Welsh part of the Church of England was disestablished in 1920, becoming the Church in Wales.
Parliament Act 1949, which amended the Parliament Act 1911 (discussed above).
The amended form of the 1911 Act has been used four times.[4] These were:

War Crimes Act 1991, which extended jurisdiction of UK courts to acts committed on behalf of Nazi Germany during the Second World War (the only time- to date- that the Parliament Acts have been used by a Conservative government).
European Parliamentary Elections Act 1999, which changed the system of elections to the European Parliament from first past the post to a form of proportional representation.
Sexual Offences (Amendment) Act 2000, which equalised the age of consent for male homosexual sexual activities with that for heterosexual and female homosexual sexual activities at 16.
Hunting Act 2004, which prohibited hare coursing and (subject to some exceptions) all hunting of wild mammals (particularly foxes) with dogs after early 2005.

Thanks this is interesting and cool.

Although wasn't the filibuster in the US supposed to not be used, but now happens loads?

I want to build this North Sea Economic Area group myself. The UK, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark and Iceland. Even better with Greenland, Holland and Ireland too.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I want to build this North Sea Economic Area group myself. The UK, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark and Iceland. Even better with Greenland, Holland and Ireland too.

And how long would it be before the UK started dictating to the other members what to do? At least there's not one power in the EU that has the same clout as everyone else put together.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I want to build this North Sea Economic Area group myself. The UK, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark and Iceland. Even better with Greenland, Holland and Ireland too.

And how long would it be before the UK started dictating to the other members what to do? At least there's not one power in the EU that has the same clout as everyone else put together.

It would be an economic trade zone, not a political union.

Just keep the Lutefisk flowing and nobody gets hurt.

It's an economic trade zone. That's the key difference.

Are you guys keeping Germany with its major North Sea ports of Bremerhaven, Wilhelmshaven and so on out of your North Sea Economic Area on purpose?

 obsidianaura wrote:


Thanks this is interesting and cool.

Although wasn't the filibuster in the US supposed to not be used, but now happens loads?

thanks, OP.

It's worth pointing out that there's a convention that the Lords doesn't reject commitments made in a Manifesto. That would be too undemocratic!

Americans might not know, but often with a bill, its final shape is agreed... but the bill that goes thru the elected house is much blander. then they add all the meat in the Lords, to make it how they wanted it in the first place. I've seen this happen once up close... it was fascinating how there was this dual agenda throughout, one spoken, one unspoken, but everyone in the system know how it would turn out .

I don't necessarily have anything against the Lords, overall it works at least as well as the Senate, but of course I do enjoy using it when Quitters talk about "unelected officials."