Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The Conservative Party is more likely to blow up if the vote is to remain. Euroscepticis has been a rumbling cancer in the part since the 1980s, and it won't go away if the vote is to remain.

If I'm being honest, I am slightly concerned about Friday morning, because the polls are so close.

If it's 51/49 for either side, the courts will probably be involved, and that's bad for democracy...

Do you think there is any suggestion of ballot stuffing or something like that? It seems unlikely.

I'll give you evens that places will run out of ballot papers/close while people are waiting etc etc.

There'll be a massive stink kicked up about the voter registration extension, whoever wins. It ain't over on Friday.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Do you think there is any suggestion of ballot stuffing or something like that? It seems unlikely.

It does seem unlikely, but that voter extension debacle will likely escalate things if the vote is close.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 reds8n wrote:
I'll give you evens that places will run out of ballot papers/close while people are waiting etc etc.

No excuse for it, because they have a historical example of a recent referendum from two years ago, and all the lessons that were learned from that.

Turnout is likely to be very high, so I don't want to hear any bullgak from the electoral commission about polling stations being undermanned or not enough ballot papers being available.

It is a nonsense, though. How can either side say the people who registered later were more likely to support X or Y? It's impossible to know.

Instead everyone should be glad that more people were able to get a vote.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It is a nonsense, though. How can either side say the people who registered later were more likely to support X or Y? It's impossible to know.

Instead everyone should be glad that more people were able to get a vote.

Don't get me wrong - I'm glad more people are voting, but there is zero excuse for the shambles that happened, because they had a template from the Scottish referendum that they could have followed in order to avoid what happened.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
If I'm being honest, I am slightly concerned about Friday morning, because the polls are so close.

If it's 51/49 for either side, the courts will probably be involved, and that's bad for democracy...

And it raises another interesting point. The split appears to be very close to 50/50. So, if Leave win, how are they (Gov) going to accommodate the wishes of those who voted remain? How will they be "listened to". Consequently, should Remain win, how will those who voted Leave be "listened to"? How will the country be reconciled around the final choice? Unless a clear result is shown for either side, I doubt this debate is far from over.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It is a nonsense, though. How can either side say the people who registered later were more likely to support X or Y? It's impossible to know.

Instead everyone should be glad that more people were able to get a vote.

There was apparently an age skew to the later registrations. The Leave camp say this is therefore unfair as it will favour Remain (the statistics are unequivocal).

As I mentioned to the Leave fella who was campaigning in my street yesterday (when campaigning was officially suspended for obvious reasons), he shouldn't be allowed to vote, he'll be dead soon but my kids will need jobs.

 zedmeister wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
If I'm being honest, I am slightly concerned about Friday morning, because the polls are so close.

If it's 51/49 for either side, the courts will probably be involved, and that's bad for democracy...

And it raises another interesting point. The split appears to be very close to 50/50. So, if Leave win, how are they (Gov) going to accommodate the wishes of those who voted remain? How will they be "listened to". Consequently, should Remain win, how will those who voted Leave be "listened to"? How will the country be reconciled around the final choice? Unless a clear result is shown for either side, I doubt this debate is far from over.

If, and it's a big if, the winning margin is say, 200,000 votes or something, I'm expecting a force 11 gak storm to hit the UK

 zedmeister wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
If I'm being honest, I am slightly concerned about Friday morning, because the polls are so close.

If it's 51/49 for either side, the courts will probably be involved, and that's bad for democracy...

And it raises another interesting point. The split appears to be very close to 50/50. So, if Leave win, how are they (Gov) going to accommodate the wishes of those who voted remain? How will they be "listened to". Consequently, should Remain win, how will those who voted Leave be "listened to"? How will the country be reconciled around the final choice? Unless a clear result is shown for either side, I doubt this debate is far from over.

You're absolutely right, and it's another reason why the referendum was a stupid idea at the start.

If it is a close as it looks. I wonder if there will be another treaty change offered and a new referendum held later based on the new deal as the EU now realises it's really happening.

I get the feeling that the rest of Europe didn't really think there was a danger of the UK leaving.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 zedmeister wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
If I'm being honest, I am slightly concerned about Friday morning, because the polls are so close.

If it's 51/49 for either side, the courts will probably be involved, and that's bad for democracy...

And it raises another interesting point. The split appears to be very close to 50/50. So, if Leave win, how are they (Gov) going to accommodate the wishes of those who voted remain? How will they be "listened to". Consequently, should Remain win, how will those who voted Leave be "listened to"? How will the country be reconciled around the final choice? Unless a clear result is shown for either side, I doubt this debate is far from over.

You're absolutely right, and it's another reason why the referendum was a stupid idea at the start.

I disagree. It's been 40+ years since the EEC referendum, and in that time we had Maastricht, Lisbon, and a whole bunch of other EU measures. I think it was the right thing to do.

A lot of the problems are down to Cameron's ineptitude and inability to handle his own party, but the average man in the street shouldn't carry the can for that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 obsidianaura wrote:
If it is a close as it looks. I wonder if there will be another treaty change offered and a new referendum held later based on the new deal as the EU now realises it's really happening.

I get the feeling that the rest of Europe didn't really think there was a danger of the UK leaving.

You can bet your last penny that if it's a close BREXIT vote, the EU top brass will be all over Britain like a bad rash as they rush to offer a new deal.

Expect them also to make sympathetic noises about Scotland being welcomed into the EU by a unique fast track programme, that was always in the rules, but was 'accidently' forgotten about.

It's hard to know what everyone else in Europe thinks. Support for the EU is low in a lot of core countries even including France, but like me, a lot of people like the general idea of the EU while disagreeing with some of the details.

The best result IMO would be a close win for Remain that gives the EU enough of a shock to make them listen to complaining voices.

It's easier to reform the organisation from within than by leaving. I don't think tinkering with treaty details for individual countries is the right way forwards. There would need to be a clearer idea of what needs to be reformed, based on wider spread discontent than just the UK.

I don't think Cameron is the man to go in to bat for Britain against the EU top level, but a narrow Remain result might make it possible for him to get a coalition of politicians and diplomats from other countries. Someone from Denmark may turn out to be the best advocate.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It's hard to know what everyone else in Europe thinks. Support for the EU is low in a lot of core countries even including France, but like me, a lot of people like the general idea of the EU while disagreeing with some of the details.

The best result IMO would be a close win for Remain that gives the EU enough of a shock to make them listen to complaining voices.

It's easier to reform the organisation from within than by leaving. I don't think tinkering with treaty details for individual countries is the right way forwards. There would need to be a clearer idea of what needs to be reformed, based on wider spread discontent than just the UK.

I don't think Cameron is the man to go in to bat for Britain against the EU top level, but a narrow Remain result might make it possible for him to get a coalition of politicians and diplomats from other countries. Someone from Denmark may turn out to be the best advocate.

I'm hoping for the same.

Either way the EU needs to do something. Not compromising on things to help countries within it cope, is not going to sooth the discontent.

This is why there needs to be a sensible accounting of complaints, rather than generalised moaning and grumbling about "red tape", "immigration", "sovereignty" and so on.

The government and EU need to actually specify and quantify what people are worried about.

Herzlos wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Pro tip.

If you hate the Tories vote to leave, the party will have destroyed itself by the end of the year.

As much asI hate the tories, that's a terrible idea. The tories will tear themselvs apart anyway, but whilst labour continues to have no directin theres no real alternative. We should be voting based on the bigger picture and the future and whatever happens we'll have crap, innefective, corrupt self serving politicians.

I know, I was joking. Only partially because no doubt people are only voting based on political parties.



It's a bit like AVP, no matter which side wins, both will lose.

But if leave wins and the government tells us no, there will be riots.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Boris aside

I've seen some sincere people make sound argument for Brexit. But I'm dumbfounded you think Boris is one of the better ones.

Behind that cheery exterior is one of the most ambitious, unprincipled characters in politics. He's an entirely different beast, even to Cameron and Osborne.

1: he lies on the record. He was sacked for making up stories in the Times, and sacked by Michael Howard for denying he was having an affair. Think about that - he became a politician because he was too dishonest to be a journalist!
2: He's no Tory. He called for the suspension of Habeas Corpus - which is exactly what people talk about when they extol the Magna Carta and ancient English liberties. He didn't do it out of principle, but to try and court more popularity.
3: Before the Olympics, London had to reduce atmospheric pollution, both for EU regs and because it had been agreed. The Chinese did it by reducing emissions - cleaning up factories. Boris did it by spraying suppressant around the monitoring sites. As in, not reducing the pollution at all but by fiddling the readings. Remember, 10,000 Londoners die early every single year thanks to NO and other pollutants.

It's fashionable to decry politicians, but some of them are honourable. I suggest he's one of the least honourable there is.

it's especially relevant to this debate, in that he's not a Brexit man; he's doing it solely to try and get the top job. At least Gove does, and always has, believe in his cause (can't believe I just said that). It's a masterclass in political cynicism, in a business famous for it.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Boris aside

I've seen some sincere people make sound argument for Brexit. But I'm dumbfounded you think Boris is one of the better ones.

Behind that cheery exterior is one of the most ambitious, unprincipled characters in politics. He's an entirely different beast, even to Cameron and Osborne.

1: he lies on the record. He was sacked for making up stories in the Times, and sacked by Michael Howard for denying he was having an affair. Think about that - he became a politician because he was too dishonest to be a journalist!
2: He's no Tory. He called for the suspension of Habeas Corpus - which is exactly what people talk about when they extol the Magna Carta and ancient English liberties. He didn't do it out of principle, but to try and court more popularity.
3: Before the Olympics, London had to reduce atmospheric pollution, both for EU regs and because it had been agreed. The Chinese did it by reducing emissions - cleaning up factories. Boris did it by spraying suppressant around the monitoring sites. As in, not reducing the pollution at all but by fiddling the readings. Remember, 10,000 Londoners die early every single year thanks to NO and other pollutants.

It's fashionable to decry politicians, but some of them are honourable. I suggest he's one of the least honourable there is.

it's especially relevant to this debate, in that he's not a Brexit man; he's doing it solely to try and get the top job. At least Gove does, and always has, believe in his cause (can't believe I just said that). It's a masterclass in political cynicism, in a business famous for it.

Completely agree with this 100%

Now, I'm voting leave, I think that's been pretty well established by now

But I would say this to my fellow dakka members.

1) Get out there and vote on Thursday. The more the better, regardless if you're IN or OUT.

2) Put party politics aside and think of the national interest. Forget personalities. Don't vote remain because you don't want Bojo as PM. And don't vote to leave because you want to see David Cameron booted out of Downing street.

Think of the bigger picture, and that bigger picture is either Britain part of the EU, or Britain making its own way in the world.

Two bit politicians like Bojo, Call me Dave, Blair, Farage, Corbyn, Osborne etc etc don't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It is a nonsense, though. How can either side say the people who registered later were more likely to support X or Y? It's impossible to know.

Instead everyone should be glad that more people were able to get a vote.

There was apparently an age skew to the later registrations. The Leave camp say this is therefore unfair as it will favour Remain (the statistics are unequivocal).

As I mentioned to the Leave fella who was campaigning in my street yesterday (when campaigning was officially suspended for obvious reasons), he shouldn't be allowed to vote, he'll be dead soon but my kids will need jobs.

Curious that it's the young voters that are expected to vote leave - they've got a much bigger stake in this as they are the ones that will have to live with the decision whilst a lot of older voters (being retired or nearly retired) are likely to be pretty insulated from whatever happens, whilst also likely to be the most xenophobic.

Herzlos wrote:

Curious that it's the young voters that are expected to vote leave - they've got a much bigger stake in this as they are the ones that will have to live with the decision whilst a lot of older voters (being retired or nearly retired) are likely to be pretty insulated from whatever happens, whilst also likely to be the most xenophobic.

My bad for not being explicit.

The statistics are something like, 65 per cent of under 29s favour Remain, and about the same proportion of over 59s favour Leave.

the proportions are roughly the same for those with degree (40% remain majority), and GCSE or less (40% Leave majority)

Can't stand Johnson. He's a self serving spanker who waited to see which way the wind was blowing and then picked a side when he sensed an opportunity to usurp Cameron as PM. I expect he's gambling that a LEAVE vote will topple Cameron, and then he'll make his move for the leadership.

My parents just can't understand that, they assumed that because I support LEAVE I must therefore like Johnson. Apparently they like him because he's "funny" or something.

And don't vote to leave because you want to see David Cameron booted out of Downing street.

I made my decision 10 years ago, but Cameron getting the boot would be a welcome bonus.

 welshhoppo wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Pro tip.

If you hate the Tories vote to leave, the party will have destroyed itself by the end of the year.

As much asI hate the tories, that's a terrible idea. The tories will tear themselvs apart anyway, but whilst labour continues to have no directin theres no real alternative. We should be voting based on the bigger picture and the future and whatever happens we'll have crap, innefective, corrupt self serving politicians.

I know, I was joking. Only partially because no doubt people are only voting based on political parties.



It's a bit like AVP, no matter which side wins, both will lose.

But if leave wins and the government tells us no, there will be riots.

I didn't think you were being serious, but I've heard of some pretty daft reasons for voting either way, though nothing as much as the notion that people will base it on the performance of the England football team in the Euros.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

Curious that it's the young voters that are expected to vote leave - they've got a much bigger stake in this as they are the ones that will have to live with the decision whilst a lot of older voters (being retired or nearly retired) are likely to be pretty insulated from whatever happens, whilst also likely to be the most xenophobic.

My bad for not being explicit.

The statistics are something like, 65 per cent of under 29s favour Remain, and about the same proportion of over 59s favour Leave.

No problem

So those with most to lose favour staying in, those with least to lose favour leaving?

Herzlos wrote:
whilst a lot of older voters (being retired or nearly retired) are likely to be pretty insulated from whatever happens

Not if the Government's prophecies of doom regarding pensions are to be believed.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
whilst a lot of older voters (being retired or nearly retired) are likely to be pretty insulated from whatever happens

Not if the Government's prophecies of doom regarding pensions are to be believed.

Nothing bad will happen to pensions. The government will just pull money away from other things like university funding, or education in general in order to keep those retired people happy and voting for them.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Can't stand Johnson. He's a self serving spanker who waited to see which way the wind was blowing and then picked a side when he sensed an opportunity to usurp Cameron as PM. I expect he's gambling that a LEAVE vote will topple Cameron, and then he'll make his move for the leadership.

My parents just can't understand that, they assumed that because I support LEAVE I must therefore like Johnson. Apparently they like him because he's "funny" or something.

And don't vote to leave because you want to see David Cameron booted out of Downing street.

I made my decision 10 years ago, but Cameron getting the boot would be a welcome bonus.

Boris Johnson is one of the many people that as I've gotten older have gone from "The funny X guy! I like him he does daft stuff!" to actually being genuinely concerning. He gives off the air of being a bit silly, like some sort of bumbling lovable uncle, but after some deeper research almost everything he does seems to come across as incredibly self-serving and in many cases dishonest.

People also in this group include: Rick Santorum (his surname is slang which is funny, his policies are disgusting), Chuck Norris (hurr hurr memes, but actively works against LGBT rights), Putin (he rides horses and goes shirtless! but is also Putin), Jeremy Clarkson (He makes rude jokes! He's an overgrown child who throws about racism as if it's confetti) and Nadine Dorries (she's an MP who went on I'm a Celebrity Get me out of here! That's Hilarious! She's my local MP and opposes almost everything that I stand for)

 Goliath wrote:
Nadine Dorries (she's an MP who went on I'm a Celebrity Get me out of here! That's Hilarious! She's my local MP and opposes almost everything that I stand for)

You have my sympathies

If we do stay/remain then presumably Cameron will have seen off Gove, Johnson Fox etc etc with regards to the PM job yes ?

I think at times people really underestimate exactly how confident -- even if it's often without exactly great reasons -- Cameron is.

 reds8n wrote:


I think at times people really underestimate exactly how confident -- even if it's often without exactly great reasons -- Cameron is.

Not really. If you see him destroying your own preferred party leader at Question Time with consummate ease, totally unruffled, you have to give him credit for confidence, at least.

Calling the referendum was pretty disastrous though, given it was simply to placate extremists like John Redwood ("the bastards", as Major put it), he's divided the country, might well still lose and be responsible for torpedoing our economy, and our future, and as we know there have been tragic events that might not have happened without all the hate that's been unleashed.