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I want to be a good sport I really do, but if Leave win there's a place on the web that I will be returning to to mock them over it, because of the hateful way they treated me for having a different opinion. I've had disagreements here but so far nobody has sent me a pm saying that I deserve cancer for wanting to leave the EU.

Honestly, regardless of the result, Friday's weather report will likely include a huge band of Smug settling across the UK; as the louder supporters of the winning side seek to become the official dictionary definition of 'insufferable'.

I think it's a bit early to say it's disastrous.

I think given the polls we've seen so far -- and bearing in mind the leave/remain does cross over party/political allegiances, there really wasn't much of a choice but to call a referendum on the matter.

There's no way any of the existing parties -- possible exception of the Libs and UKIP ... and look how they did at the last election -- could clearly come down as in or out without splintering.

The debate/argument has been a long time coming and is -- IMO, YMMV -- due "lancing".

Even without the timelines put forwards for x/y/z to take hold one suspects that this isn't quite the end of the saga here anyway.

Any significant shift one way or another by the Uk or the EU -- or of course other global events -- is still quite likely to cause further ructions in the future.

For example I know of people who will be voting remain but would still oppose any attempt for us to take.. join ..?? ... the Euro as our currency.

I don't think this issue will be solved by the lance.


It will just be the hole that allows bacteria to fester in the wound.

Well michael hesiltine just said on a live lbc interview that the uk would be joining the euro when the 'project' was further along. Whoops from him.

http://www.lbc.co.uk/remains-heseltine-uk-will-join-the-euro-132613

 reds8n wrote:


For example I know of people who will be voting remain but would still oppose any attempt for us to take.. join ..?? ... the Euro as our currency.

That seems an entirely reasonable position. the UK has secured an opt out against the Euro, and against further integration, and there might be a point at which other nations should get the same. Obviously the problem is that, if you already have the Euro, perhaps further integration is obligatory.

Not that I buy the argument that the present problems are all the Euro's fault.. the prime cause is the banking crisis and insane lending.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I want to be a good sport I really do, but if Leave win there's a place on the web that I will be returning to to mock them over it, because of the hateful way they treated me for having a different opinion. I've had disagreements here but so far nobody has sent me a pm saying that I deserve cancer for wanting to leave the EU.

Was that on Dakka? Sad. I've had plenty of Facebook abuse, mostly from people who represent a collective damning indictment of the British (or more specifically Yorkshire) education system.

Any "opt-outs" that we have aren't worth the paper they're written on. At best, the EU views our opt-outs as temporary. After all, how many "Red-lines" did Tony Blair concede over the years?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Any "opt-outs" that we have aren't worth the paper they're written on. At best, the EU views our opt-outs as temporary. After all, how many "Red-lines" did Tony Blair concede over the years?

I trust a legally-binding treaty over internet assertions, sorry!

In any case we would certainly Leave rather than join the Euro.

@ Hivefleet Oblivion

Nah, it was TV Tropes. Real gak hole.

@ Shadow Captain Edithae

Yeah, the EU has this nasty habit of changing the rules when it suits them. If we stay they will hammer us.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Any "opt-outs" that we have aren't worth the paper they're written on. At best, the EU views our opt-outs as temporary. After all, how many "Red-lines" did Tony Blair concede over the years?

I trust a legally-binding treaty over internet assertions, sorry!

In any case we would certainly Leave rather than join the Euro.

I hope you're not referring to the "promises of reform" that David Cameron was parading after returning from his negotiating tour.

... and you all laughed when they mentioned WW III

Never forget, he asked for nothing and got less than that. They pissed in his face. Now they want us to trust them.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:


Not that I buy the argument that the present problems are all the Euro's fault.. the prime cause is the banking crisis and insane lending.

To go off at a slight tangent the EU and European national governments were at fault when the crisis hit Europe. The EU in particular is guilty of going against its regulations in allowing Greece, Italy, Spain, Ireland and Portugal to have government debt to go above 60% of GDP.

They also okayed the bailouts which were, again, against principles laid down by Finance ministers within the EU.

The EU could never allow Greece to leave the Euro currency ( you guessed it, its against the EU's rules) so was left propping up a country which they allowed to run up massive amounts of debt, contra to policy in order to ensure the Euro was a stable currency.

If Italy's banking sector cannot deal with the debt their government has (137% of GDP and rising) this will be another country that needs a bailout.

The Euro is a bigger risk to European stability than a Brexit IMO.

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:


Not that I buy the argument that the present problems are all the Euro's fault.. the prime cause is the banking crisis and insane lending.

To go off at a slight tangent the EU and European national governments were at fault when the crisis hit Europe. The EU in particular is guilty of going against its regulations in allowing Greece, Italy, Spain, Ireland and Portugal to have government debt to go above 60% of GDP.

They also okayed the bailouts which were, again, against principles laid down by Finance ministers within the EU.

The EU could never allow Greece to leave the Euro currency ...

The Euro is a bigger risk to European stability than a Brexit IMO.

Oh yes, agreed. Hubris. But we are where we are now and fortunately somewhat insulated.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


I hope you're not referring to the "promises of reform" that David Cameron was parading after returning from his negotiating tour.

A meme doesn't make an argument. A more pertinent historical reference might be how the biggest Brexit supporter, the Daily Mail, supported Chamberlain and described Adolf Hitler as "a man we can work with."

the UK is not committed to further integration - that's a sea change in attitude. You can go la la la and pretend it doesn't exist (a bit like some people claim the rebate doesn't exist, or how if we don't pay the EU anything they'll keep sending us funds).

Also, recently he secured the concession that child benefit is paid at a level that reflects cost of living in the child's country.

Anyway, as you were, there are plenty of valid, reasonable arguments for Leave that don't fly in the face of reality, and that don't consist of pasting in memes!

It wasn't supposed to be a serious argument, it was merely a joke. Chill out.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
it was merely a joke..

not any more of a joke than the claims on the side of Boris's Red Bus though, huh?

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
it was merely a joke..

not any more of a joke than the claims on the side of Boris's Red Bus though, huh?

Like I said, I can't stand the spanker. So no argument there.

Ok, I watched rthe latest debate on BBC. I'm....astounded that leave has lasted this long. I heard a lot of actual information from Remain, and lot of Trump, to coin a phrase, from Leave.

To boil it down while parodying it just a wee bit:



"We should leave, wrap ourselves in the Union Jack, and scream God Save the Queen and feth the EU!'

"But what about lost jobs and out newfound lack of trade treaties?"

'We'll force the EU to bow to our will because we're strong and England forever!"

"How will we be strong with no jobs?'

"Because England is never stronger than when commoners are starving in the streets! Just ask Nelson and Wellington! We beat the Nazis while we huddled in bombed out houses, we can do it again!'

"What does that have to do with....."

"feth THE KRAUTS AND FROGS AND THE PAKIS!"

"Now, wait just a moment!"

"CEASE YOUR BELITTLEING ENGLAND, YOU TRAITORS!"

"Quick, get the mike off him he's losing it!"

"WE'LL BUILD A WALL AROUND THE MICKS AND MAKE THEM PAY FOR IT!"

"Get some facts, he's going full Trump!"

I actually though David Beckham put it better than anyone else.

RObert Peston tweeted that Cameron is totally changing his style, as the money argument isn't working - Beckham's Remain for the kids, for the future, is far more emotive .

And did anyone see John Barnes's takedown of Gove? Magisterial. "We are world leaders, from a moral point of view.... and we're going to be the first to jump ship when things get tough? "

Who'd have thought it was English footballers who'd bring intellectual vigour and insight to the campaign?

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/sport/2016/06/i-support-remain-john-barnes-rejects-michael-goves-claim-he-pro-brexit

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Ok, I watched rthe latest debate on BBC. I'm....astounded that leave has lasted this long. I heard a lot of actual information from Remain, and lot of Trump, to coin a phrase, from Leave.

To boil it down while parodying it just a wee bit:



"We should leave, wrap ourselves in the Union Jack, and scream God Save the Queen and feth the EU!'

"But what about lost jobs and out newfound lack of trade treaties?"

'We'll force the EU to bow to our will because we're strong and England forever!"

"How will we be strong with no jobs?'

"Because England is never stronger than when commoners are starving in the streets! Just ask Nelson and Wellington! We beat the Nazis while we huddled in bombed out houses, we can do it again!'

"What does that have to do with....."

"feth THE KRAUTS AND FROGS AND THE PAKIS!"

"Now, wait just a moment!"

"CEASE YOUR BELITTLEING ENGLAND, YOU TRAITORS!"

"Quick, get the mike off him he's losing it!"

"WE'LL BUILD A WALL AROUND THE MICKS AND MAKE THEM PAY FOR IT!"

"Get some facts, he's going full Trump!"

Would you mind toning the flame bait down just a little, please?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Would you mind toning the flame bait down just a little, please?

Yeah, it's distracting from the memes of irrelevant WW2 comparisons! (from the side funded by BNP donors).

As opposed to most of the remain comments which are along the lines of us leaving is equivalent to either Suicide or the beginnings of WW3. We don't know with who. We can only imagine it's Russia vs the EU.

I agree the name of Churchill shouldn't be invoked. But that of Vladimir Putin certainly should.

Anne Applebaum is one of the foremost authorities on Europe, when it was divided by an Iron Curtain:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-uk-leaving-the-european-union-could-mean-the-end-of-both-of-them/2016/02/05/6970d39a-cb5a-11e5-ae11-57b6aeab993f_story.html

just saw this...

Major leak from Brussels reveals NHS will be ‘KILLED OFF’ if Britain remains in the EU
Hundreds of papers from the secretive trade talks between the US and EU have been released online.

They appear to confirm fears that the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership talks between Brussels and Washington will, when ratified, lead to the health service being privatised or dismantled.

The documents, obtained by Greenpeace Netherlands, include a US proposal to have a committee with representatives from Washington and Brussels to meet each year “to review state-owned enterprises and monopolies” which would include the NHS.
The committee would meet annually and would not be guaranteed a representative from Britain.

But it would still be able to review state-run services in this country. Its duties would include checking that state services do not “distort” the market.

One section of the papers makes it clear that the EU and America would seek eventually to end all forms of state intervention in competition with the private sector.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/666454/NHS-EU-killed-off-Brexit-Remain-Leave-referendum-Brussels-European-Union

 SirDonlad wrote:
just saw this...

Major leak from Brussels reveals NHS will be ‘KILLED OFF’ if Britain remains in the EU
Hundreds of papers from the secretive trade talks between the US and EU have been released online.

They appear to confirm fears that the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership talks between Brussels and Washington will, when ratified, lead to the health service being privatised or dismantled.

The documents, obtained by Greenpeace Netherlands, include a US proposal to have a committee with representatives from Washington and Brussels to meet each year “to review state-owned enterprises and monopolies” which would include the NHS.
The committee would meet annually and would not be guaranteed a representative from Britain.

But it would still be able to review state-run services in this country. Its duties would include checking that state services do not “distort” the market.

One section of the papers makes it clear that the EU and America would seek eventually to end all forms of state intervention in competition with the private sector.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/666454/NHS-EU-killed-off-Brexit-Remain-Leave-referendum-Brussels-European-Union

That's some weapons-grade scare-mongering there...

 whembly wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:
just saw this...

Major leak from Brussels reveals NHS will be ‘KILLED OFF’ if Britain remains in the EU
Hundreds of papers from the secretive trade talks between the US and EU have been released online.

They appear to confirm fears that the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership talks between Brussels and Washington will, when ratified, lead to the health service being privatised or dismantled.

The documents, obtained by Greenpeace Netherlands, include a US proposal to have a committee with representatives from Washington and Brussels to meet each year “to review state-owned enterprises and monopolies” which would include the NHS.
The committee would meet annually and would not be guaranteed a representative from Britain.

But it would still be able to review state-run services in this country. Its duties would include checking that state services do not “distort” the market.

One section of the papers makes it clear that the EU and America would seek eventually to end all forms of state intervention in competition with the private sector.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/666454/NHS-EU-killed-off-Brexit-Remain-Leave-referendum-Brussels-European-Union

That's some weapons-grade scare-mongering there...

If you don't believe it, go read the papers yourself. Greenpeace leaked them.

 SirDonlad wrote:
just saw this...

Major leak from Brussels reveals NHS will be ‘KILLED OFF’ if Britain remains in the EU
Hundreds of papers from the secretive trade talks between the US and EU have been released online.

They appear to confirm fears that the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership talks between Brussels and Washington will, when ratified, lead to the health service being privatised or dismantled.

The documents, obtained by Greenpeace Netherlands, include a US proposal to have a committee with representatives from Washington and Brussels to meet each year “to review state-owned enterprises and monopolies” which would include the NHS.
The committee would meet annually and would not be guaranteed a representative from Britain.

But it would still be able to review state-run services in this country. Its duties would include checking that state services do not “distort” the market.

One section of the papers makes it clear that the EU and America would seek eventually to end all forms of state intervention in competition with the private sector.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/666454/NHS-EU-killed-off-Brexit-Remain-Leave-referendum-Brussels-European-Union

1. Anyone who's been paying attention has known this for months, up here we've been howling about it to the usual total lack of regard from WM.

2. If the UK government wanted one, it could fairly easily negotiate an exception for the NHS much as other EU countries are negotiating exceptions for their state-owned industry, healthcare, and transport organisations. As far as we know the UK government have made no such attempt.

3. France, as far as we know, is planning to refuse to accede to the treaty, meaning TTIP is functionally dead for the moment as it requires unanimity.

4. And lastly, using this to bash the EU and big up Brexit is frankly hilarious, given that by the definition of the WHO the UK(ie England & Wales, up here ours is public and will stay that way ta very much) already doesn't have an NHS any more because of the rampant privatisation and marketisation of the last thirty years, which the current government has only accelerated - are we meant to believe our friendly local Tory government is suddenly, once freed of the onerous shackles of EU regulation that don't mandate any of the actions they've taken re the NHS so far, are suddenly going to volte face?

I think it's rather more likely that they'll carry right on privatising away entirely of their own accord, then rush out to sign TTIP anyway because they'll be desperate to shore up their international cred in the face of a justifiably obstinate EU negotiating team.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:
just saw this...

Major leak from Brussels reveals NHS will be ‘KILLED OFF’ if Britain remains in the EU
Hundreds of papers from the secretive trade talks between the US and EU have been released online.

They appear to confirm fears that the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership talks between Brussels and Washington will, when ratified, lead to the health service being privatised or dismantled.

The documents, obtained by Greenpeace Netherlands, include a US proposal to have a committee with representatives from Washington and Brussels to meet each year “to review state-owned enterprises and monopolies” which would include the NHS.
The committee would meet annually and would not be guaranteed a representative from Britain.

But it would still be able to review state-run services in this country. Its duties would include checking that state services do not “distort” the market.

One section of the papers makes it clear that the EU and America would seek eventually to end all forms of state intervention in competition with the private sector.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/666454/NHS-EU-killed-off-Brexit-Remain-Leave-referendum-Brussels-European-Union

That's some weapons-grade scare-mongering there...

If you don't believe it, go read the papers yourself. Greenpeace leaked them.

Nations can walk away from agreements, so I find it hard to believe that the UK would allow the EU to effectively destroy a program if the populace doesn't want to...

SInce when did our Governments ever care about what we want?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
SInce when did our Governments ever care about what we want?

Well... you got a point.

Not that my opinion matters, but I'd favor a Brexit... to preserve UK's self-determination if nothing else. But, I have no flipping clue as to what that actually means.