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 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Ketara wrote:


Then you are in precisely the same position you would be in when visiting most of the world.

With all due respect, the world is not a single government or institution, and expecting other countries to bend over backwards for you is somewhat baffling. Nobody is making you go abroad if you are physically incapable of travelling without regular or expensive treatment.

So it's okay to be angry at some vague idea of "sovereignty" but baffling to be upset at actual restrictions to my life?

Seems a bit backwards to me.

One is a concept of national frameworks. The other one is an obsession with the personal. I can accept that you dislike the fact that foreign governments will not bend over backwards for you in the future, I wish America would allow me to borrow a tank for the weekend. You have every right to be annoyed at whatever limitations on your life exist, and strive to change them by whatever means are in your power. But you may find that foreign governments do not share your concern for your own wellbeing, no matter how fervently you wish they did. And unfortunately, the collective decision of the British people here is also not based around that need of yours. Perhaps you view that as backwards, and that is your right.

 Ketara wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Ketara wrote:


Then you are in precisely the same position you would be in when visiting most of the world.

With all due respect, the world is not a single government or institution, and expecting other countries to bend over backwards for you is somewhat baffling. Nobody is making you go abroad if you are physically incapable of travelling without regular or expensive treatment.

So it's okay to be angry at some vague idea of "sovereignty" but baffling to be upset at actual restrictions to my life?

Seems a bit backwards to me.

One is a concept of national frameworks. The other one is an obsession with the personal. I can accept that you dislike the fact that foreign governments will not bend over backwards for you in the future, I wish America would allow me to borrow a tank for the weekend. You have every right to be annoyed at whatever limitations on your life exist, and strive to change them by whatever means are in your power. But you may find that foreign governments do not share your concern for your own wellbeing, no matter how fervently you wish they did.

One is an idea made up for people to feel good about the little patch of dirt they happened to be born on, the other has lasting effects on peoples lives.

They are not "bending over backwards" for me. They still get paid, it just means that every person in the UK would be free to travel without worrying about health insurance. That is a big deal for a lot of people.

Well Boris Johnson is looking good for being the new PM. I've always liked mad boris.

Just woke up to this... God Bless Democracy.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


They are not "bending over backwards" for me. They still get paid, it just means that every person in the UK would be free to travel without worrying about health insurance. That is a big deal for a lot of people.

As it is clearly that simple, I suggest you propose this to every government in the world on the behalf of the British people. I wish you every success!

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Well, they've enjoyed free movement, free trade and free healthcare across the whole EU, which may now disappear for younger people. As for housing? Look at the numbers of young people renting vs. owning their own homes. Pensions? Look at how much older people get paid in their pensions compared to what younger people are predicted to get paid, not to mention the ever increasing pension age.

Also, the UK may have just hamstrung it's science sector which, thanks to access to EU funding, cooperation, personnel and facilities, was outperforming the US. So yeah, pretty annoyed as that could have a pretty detrimental effect on my future career.

I'm trying to formulate a response to this that does not come across as a personal attack.

Free movement? We had that for a long time ago. Free trade? Perhaps you may have a point, but we'll have to wait and see for the dust to settle on that issue. Free healthcare? No we didn't we had a reciprocal agreement that allowed us access to healthcare in member states countries while we had an E111. Housing? This has nothing to do with the EU and the present housing shortage is an issue of our own. Pensions? The people who are voting are by and large existing on the state pension! Also pensions are not a remit of the EU last I checked.

Science, I have a friend who completed his PHD in Organic Chemistry concentrating on research. On receipt of his PHD he immediately moved to the US, so problems with brain drain existed a long time ago.

Your concerns are valid, but they have nothing to do with the membership (or lack of) of the EU.

I get that your angry about the result, but you may reconsider the direction that you're aiming it.

Cheers

Andrew

Leave now has a lead of 1,100,000. Hopefully that will be enough the government can't kick it into the long grass the way I suspect they would any figure under 1,000,000.

 AndrewC wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Well, they've enjoyed free movement, free trade and free healthcare across the whole EU, which may now disappear for younger people. As for housing? Look at the numbers of young people renting vs. owning their own homes. Pensions? Look at how much older people get paid in their pensions compared to what younger people are predicted to get paid, not to mention the ever increasing pension age.

Also, the UK may have just hamstrung it's science sector which, thanks to access to EU funding, cooperation, personnel and facilities, was outperforming the US. So yeah, pretty annoyed as that could have a pretty detrimental effect on my future career.

I'm trying to formulate a response to this that does not come across as a personal attack.

Free movement? We had that for a long time ago. Free trade? Perhaps you may have a point, but we'll have to wait and see for the dust to settle on that issue. Free healthcare? No we didn't we had a reciprocal agreement that allowed us access to healthcare in member states countries while we had an E111. Housing? This has nothing to do with the EU and the present housing shortage is an issue of our own. Pensions? The people who are voting are by and large existing on the state pension! Also pensions are not a remit of the EU last I checked.

Science, I have a friend who completed his PHD in Organic Chemistry concentrating on research. On receipt of his PHD he immediately moved to the US, so problems with brain drain existed a long time ago.

Your concerns are valid, but they have nothing to do with the membership (or lack of) of the EU.

I get that your angry about the result, but you may reconsider the direction that you're aiming it.

Cheers

Andrew

I realise that (at the moment at least) that housing and pensions had nothing to do with the EU (though I believe the EU was looking into introducing a bill which would cap the cost of renting). My point was that this is yet another example of older people making a decision that will affect younger people a lot more than them, like the changes to state pensions and them buying up all the houses to let them out and further fund their retirement.

Also, with the introduction of frameworks such as Horizon 2020, Europe was actually pulling ahead of the US in terms of research output. Which would indicate that the brain drain to the US was not as great as it may have been previously.

I think i'm done for the night with this. Wasted too much time looking at something that doesn't effect me too much. I mean it does but nowhere near as much as it effects the EU or the UK (or even scotland).

 Ustrello wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
So with a leave it is pretty certain that scotland will leave the UK correct?

Not certain no, but more likely than it was yesterday.

I mean wasn't stay razor thin last time? So you think that a leave EU vote would give the independent party a huge boost

55/45 in favour of the union last time, polling before the EUref had it in a statistical tie near enough 50/50 as an average. A lot of folk who voted No last time said they would reconsider and probably vote Yes a second time round in the event of Brexit, but folk say a lot of things and my gut feeling is that most of the pundits/newspaper types peddling that line were hoping to use it to drive opinion down south in England, to persuade unionists there to vote Remain, and when it comes down to it most will prevaricate and then vote No again.

Whether the result changes a second time, assuming there is one, depends entirely on whether the Yes campaign can repeat their performance from before - turning an average 20% support into actual 45%. They'd need to do almost as well again to get a definitive Yes vote. That, I expect, will depend on what happens over the next couple of years during the exit negotiations - if the EU want a stick to beat the UK with, we could find the murmured opposition from EU officials of the last indyref becomes definitive support which in combination with the Brexit vote puts the EU membership issue from last time to bed, and if the pound takes a sustained hit then the whole "fnar fnar, no sterling for you, jockos!" line rather loses its impact OTOH, if the EU decide they just want shot of the lot of us ASAP, the pound recovers somewhat, and the Tories manage to tear themselves apart so thoroughly even Labour appear to have a whisper of a chance of election, then I expect we'd get much the same result as before.

It's by no means a foregone conclusion.

EDIT: And yes, I didn;t go to bed, sue me I'm too hyped/annoyed now

Time for bed for me. I look forward to the reams of articles and political speculation/strife when I wake up,

Good riddance, finally England can be USA's 51 state? GW stuff will even more expensive, back to pounds, shillings and pence, yards, feet etcetera
Battle for Brittain part 2!

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

I realise that (at the moment at least) that housing and pensions had nothing to do with the EU (though I believe the EU was looking into introducing a bill which would cap the cost of renting). My point was that this is yet another example of older people making a decision that will affect younger people a lot more than them, like the changes to state pensions and them buying up all the houses to let them out and further fund their retirement.

Also, with the introduction of frameworks such as Horizon 2020, Europe was actually pulling ahead of the US in terms of research output. Which would indicate that the brain drain to the US was not as great as it may have been previously.

Even if the EU was looking at introducing a bill to cap the cost of renting a property, you still wouldn't be able to rent anywhere because all the rentals would be sold off. The cap wouldn't affect the cost of property.

Getting late here, going to sleep.

Cheers.

Andrew

And the Dutch is wanting to get in this action...\BNO NewsVerified account

‏@BNONews
BREAKING: Dutch Party for Freedom leader Geert Wilders calls for Dutch EU referendum after Brexit

Oh dear, Northern Ireland have also voted Remain.

Looks like England and Wales might be off on their own in a couple of years. EDIT: Yup, here comes Sinn Fein with the regulation Size 6 fecal stirrer.

Jehan-reznor wrote:Good riddance, finally England can be USA's 51 state? GW stuff will even more expensive, back to pounds, shillings and pence, yards, feet etcetera
Battle for Brittain part 2!

Yeah, this is a major factor in me selling all my stuff. Bit weird, but I'm not going to be able to support such a hobby what with a falling pound and uncertainty.

whembly wrote:And the Dutch is wanting to get in this action...\BNO NewsVerified account

‏@BNONews
BREAKING: Dutch Party for Freedom leader Geert Wilders calls for Dutch EU referendum after Brexit

Wouldn't surprise me to see a domino effect of referendums.

This is a turning point for Britain. We've lost our way the last 40 odd years. The 70s in particular really gakked things up. We're headed in the right direction now.

Maybe History will remember this day as the beginning of the Evil Union's destruction, and the freeing of the peoples.
And your grandsons will be proud of theirs grandparents, who rose and stand up against the EU's administration and technocracy !

So it''s official. We're out. Remain can't possibly pull it back as of now. The pound is at it's lowest in a long time though, and we have no idea if we'll take the Norway option. Lot's of uncertainty.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 godardc wrote:
Maybe History will remember this day as the beginning of the Evil Union's destruction, and the freeing of the peoples.
And your grandsons will be proud of theirs grandparents, who rose and stand up against the EU's administration and technocracy !

Isn't the closest French analogue of UKIP gaining momentum in the polls? And aren't they saying they'll force an EU ref?

Just found out forgeworld became cheaper, this is exciting.

They are high for some years now, and yes, they want to organize a referendum, too.
The fact is, the left is in complete disarray because, I don't really know why, it's just people don't like the president and the PM is like a little dictator, prohibiting things, and forcing laws no one wants.

The right has more candidates than I can count^^

And effectively, the FN is high and has only 1 candidate.

They did nearly 50% last time, alone. All the others political parties had to ally to beat them, and some people are upset about their party allying with an opponent.

And, obviously, we have the same problems UK has: identity / immigration.

If the Brexit has no negative impact or just in the short term, the FN will earn some credibility.
People are afread by the economics fallout if we leave the EU, here.

But UK could avoid such a fate to France, despite itself: if the economics fallout of the Brexit are terribad, no one will do it in France !

Honestly, the result has left me... hollow. I guess I didn't realise just how little off the fence I was. If there was ever a human embodiment of how close this vote was in the early-mid stages, it'd be me.

I guess it's harder knowing how many people will hate me for my decision. I'm more sure that we should leave, but that 'more sure' is about half a percent. I'm not lying when I say that was one of the hardest decisions I've ever had to make.

Do I wish it were different? Yes. I wish Cameron hadn't fractured the entire country.
Do I regret my vote? ...Honestly, I'd probably have regretted it whichever way I voted.

Today was not the day to come off my anti-depressants.

Yay...I guess?

What a cluster feth this entire campaign has been...

That's it, the day is done.

We leave.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Yay...I guess?

What a cluster feth this entire campaign has been...

I hope we can at least all unite one last time to publicly lynch Cameron.

Time to go to the bed
Have a good day, despite all your doubts, you independant Brits !

So we've chosen division over unity, and accepted a smaller place in the world.

We've accepted a short term-ravaging of our economy in return for an uncertain future.

I've never felt so ashamed of this country.

I guess we can all now look forward of weeks and months of the establishment huffing and puffing and telling us what naughty racist little gaks we are for not voting the right way.

The EU threatening to punish us.

The vocal minority of sore losers on the Remain side protesting and rioting and refusing to respect the result.

And of course, the inevitable second referendum when the EU bribes us with a few meaningless trinkets and demands we vote again, the right way.

Yay! You did it guys. Sovereignty! Freedom! Democracy!

 Avatar 720 wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Yay...I guess?

What a cluster feth this entire campaign has been...

I hope we can at least all unite one last time to publicly lynch Cameron.

Feed him to pigs I say.

I think, and this may be controversial, that we in England made the correct decision. The Pound may have dipped, but our economy is stable, and we no longer have to bail out sinking ships like Greece.

And, most importantly, we have full control of our borders. The immigration isn't really an issue, the deportation is.