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 Iron_Captain wrote:

The Dutch aren't any less grumpy and suspicious of the EU than the British, but the vast majority do recognise that the benefits are worth the drawbacks (as far as those exist anyway, most of the "drawbacks" cited by anti-EU folks are completely made up)

People like you are one of the reasons people voted to leave the EU. There are very real drawbacks to the EU, the root being its fundamental and intended lack of democracy and it's enforcement of an economic order meant to favour core nations. Pretending that these things simply don't exist is going to soon leave you with a collapsed union and no clue whatsoever how you got there.

My favorite comment so far was "don't worry this only screws up the economy and markets, Game of Thrones should be just fine".

There isn't a fundamental and intended lack of democracy in the EU.

Every single EU directive is directed, developed and authorised by the elected representatives of the member nations. The top level is the council of ministers comprising the elected political leaders of the member countries, like Cameron for the UK.

The working parties on specialist areas are headed up by the elected ministers of the member countries who deal with those specialist areas, such as the health minister for medical issues.

Finally, the directives are scrutinised by the directly elected European Parliament. After that they only become law within each member state by the directly elected member state parliaments creating laws to enact them.

In effect there are four levels of democratic oversight.

This is one of the dreadful sad things. The democratic structure is there, but people haven't been informed about it.

For anyone who voted to remain:
I was basically prepping myself to be in your position not 24 hours ago, so i get that you are pretty pee-ed off right now, but this doesn't mean your opinion will be ignored.
48% of the voters is by no means a small number and your opinion WILL be used in future political debate, i can almost garuantee it.

... or just willfully ignored it because of agenda.


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 SirDonlad wrote:
For anyone who voted to remain:
I was basically prepping myself to be in your position not 24 hours ago, so i get that you are pretty pee-ed off right now, but this doesn't mean your opinion will be ignored.
48% of the voters is by no means a small number and your opinion WILL be used in future political debate, i can almost garuantee it.

To further what end, exactly? Our opinion has been ignored, and we will be forced into a situation we did not want, or agree with. That hardly salves the wounds tbh, rather just rubs our noses in it.

 Wyrmalla wrote:
So much for fear mongering to vote no two years ago, where the Scots being told if they went independent they'd be kicked out of the EU...

That is true, though. Scotland as a new nation would have had to apply for membership of the EU like Slovenia or Latvia.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Regarding the allegation that Farage is "backtracking" on taking the £350m we give to to the EU and using it for the NHS...thats utter bs. The Official Leave Campaign made that pledge. Farage was not part of that campaign, he helped lead a separate campaign. He had no part in making that pledge.

That ITV/Good Morning interview was an ignorant hit piece attacking Farage for something he wasn't responsible for.

What a pity that Farage was happy to let the false claim slide for weeks during the campaign. I am sure it was all justified in the support of a greater cause.

Oh, get over yourself.

It was not a "False pledge". Farage did not make the pledge. He has no responsibility for keeping it, or for holding the other Leave Campaign to account before or after the Referendum over the promises they make. He's merely given his opinion that he doesn't agree with it, because he thinks its a promise that can't be kept.

The actual people who made the pledge, the Official Leave Campaign, have not to my knowledge, recanted it.. Ergo its not (yet) a "false pledge" and you're geting your knickers in a twist for no reason. Who knows? Maybe the people who actually made the pledge will be able to keep it.

If you could just get over your hate for Farage for one moment, perhaps you could direct your ire at the people who are actually responsible.

As you know perfectly well、Farage has been a leading mover in the Brexit campaign for years.

Thats...not a counter argument.

You know perfectly well that one cannot be held responsible for the actions and promises of people you are not associated with and have no influence or authority over.

You do realise that there were two entirely separate Leave Campaigns, right? One with official acknowledgement and public funding, and one without. The former made the NHS pledge, the latter is the campaign to which Farage belongs.

No I don t. I don t care if there are two separate campaigns. They are both aiming at the same thing.

So that makes them responsible for the actions of each other? That is fething ridiculous. It doesn't matter if they share the same goal, they are two separate campaigns with different members and different leaders.

This is like blaming the Labour party for the actions of members of the Liberal Democrat party because they share some political positions and occasionally campaign for the same thing.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Wyrmalla wrote:
So much for fear mongering to vote no two years ago, where the Scots being told if they went independent they'd be kicked out of the EU...

That is true, though. Scotland as a new nation would have had to apply for membership of the EU like Slovenia or Latvia.

My point being that, and it was said at the time, if we stayed in Britain we would be leaving regardless - which has come to pass.

Par the course for driveling propaganda these days in the UK though.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There isn't a fundamental and intended lack of democracy in the EU.

Every single EU directive is directed, developed and authorised by the elected representatives of the member nations. The top level is the council of ministers comprising the elected political leaders of the member countries, like Cameron for the UK.

The working parties on specialist areas are headed up by the elected ministers of the member countries who deal with those specialist areas, such as the health minister for medical issues.

Finally, the directives are scrutinised by the directly elected European Parliament. After that they only become law within each member state by the directly elected member state parliaments creating laws to enact them.

In effect there are four levels of democratic oversight.

This is one of the dreadful sad things. The democratic structure is there, but people haven't been informed about it.

That's on the remain campaign. If they had stopped the project fear and gone for more that it may have changes things.

 Ahtman wrote:
My favorite comment so far was "don't worry this only screws up the economy and markets, Game of Thrones should be just fine".

Game of Thrones doesn't need any help in screwing up, they do that just fine on their own.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Wyrmalla wrote:
So much for fear mongering to vote no two years ago, where the Scots being told if they went independent they'd be kicked out of the EU...

That is true, though. Scotland as a new nation would have had to apply for membership of the EU like Slovenia or Latvia.

What if they get their act together, negotiate with the French and Germans,and sort out a Scottish exit within 2 years whilst still a member of the EU?
I can imagine our Euro cousins might enjoy the ramifications and humiliation of England I those circumstances, and it might serve as warning to other countries considering their own indy ref.

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

The Dutch aren't any less grumpy and suspicious of the EU than the British, but the vast majority do recognise that the benefits are worth the drawbacks (as far as those exist anyway, most of the "drawbacks" cited by anti-EU folks are completely made up)

People like you are one of the reasons people voted to leave the EU. There are very real drawbacks to the EU, the root being its fundamental and intended lack of democracy and it's enforcement of an economic order meant to favour core nations. Pretending that these things simply don't exist is going to soon leave you with a collapsed union and no clue whatsoever how you got there.

Of course the EU is not perfect, there are drawbacks, I did not say there weren't. Maybe you should try to read?
What I said is that most of the drawbacks anti-EU folks love to repeat are made up. Not that all of the drawbacks are made up.

And well, while improvement really can and does need to be made (and the EU is aware of this and is continuously making attempts of improvement already) you really can't blame the EU for not being more democratic when the people of Europe seem for the most part to have absolutely no interest at all in European elections or in even finding out how the EU works or what it actually does. The EU really isn't much less democratic than your average representative democracy, and it is likely to be much more transparent if people actually bothered to look up information. Democracy needs to come from both sides. It only works if people actually bother to inform themselves and participate. This is the biggest problem the EU faces. If they don't do anything to improve democracy and transparancy, people will shout that they are undemocratic bureacrats. If they do improve democracy and transparancy, people simply don't pay any attention and continue to shout that they are undemocratic bureacrats. This doesn't really help further improvement to the accountability of the EU to the European people.

That the EU enforces an economic order that somehow only benefits "core nations" is just bs. In fact, smaller and poorer members benefit proportionally more from the EU than the larger and wealthier ones.


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 r_squared wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Wyrmalla wrote:
So much for fear mongering to vote no two years ago, where the Scots being told if they went independent they'd be kicked out of the EU...

That is true, though. Scotland as a new nation would have had to apply for membership of the EU like Slovenia or Latvia.

What if they get their act together, negotiate with the French and Germans,and sort out a Scottish exit within 2 years whilst still a member of the EU?
I can imagine our Euro cousins might enjoy the ramifications and humiliation of England I those circumstances, and it might serve as warning to other countries considering their own indy ref.

Scotland might be able to succeed the UK's position in the EU, in the same way the Russian Federation succeeded the Soviet Union's position in the UN.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


So that makes them responsible for the actions of each other? That is fething ridiculous. It doesn't matter if they share the same goal, they are two separate campaigns with different members and different leaders.

This is like blaming the Labour party for the actions of members of the Liberal Democrat party because they share some political positions and occasionally campaign for the same thing.

Funny, that isn't the impression I got when European politicians with no official links to Remain said things you disagreed with. They were all lumped in to "Project Fear" together.


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 Iron_Captain wrote:

That the EU enforces an economic order that somehow only benefits "core nations" is just bs. In fact, smaller and poorer members benefit proportionally more from the EU than the larger and wealthier ones.

This. The EU puts a lot of money into developing some of the less affluent nations, such as the eastern european ones. This has a net benefit for everyone as it means that those countries can then train up skilled citizens to go out into the EU workforce and contribute.

What? I never said that. My complaints were more along the lines of "I wish they'd mind their own business and not interfere". I (personally) certainly never blamed Cameron for the words of European leaders.

Do you have an actual counter argument, or just whataboutism fallacies?

What a day in politics can bring! It's been a busy weekend me alright.

Finding it all very exciting! I voted out after much deliberation, I live in Northern Ireland and I'm a farmer so the result will definitely effect me!

Got to say I'm really really saddened by the way the remain supporters are behaving. Really hope for the sake of the country everyone get back on the bike and starts peddling to make the country work. I'm disappointed for David Cameron, not a major fan but i liked the guy and Sam Cam was a great looking by las at the top

Forgetting all Campaign promises (on both sides) or predicted outcomes.
Look at the facts now.

Since 'we' voted Leave:
- The Pound has plummeted, twice as bad as the infamous 'Black Wednesday'.
- Scotland is calling for another referendum.
- Ireland is looking for their own referendum.
- Economies across the globe are taking a hit (For example, Japan dropping 8% or Australia dropping 3%)
- Our own Economy has lost £125 BILLION since yesterday.
- Companies have already begun to cut jobs in the UK (For example, J.P.Morgan telling its employees in a letter 'some jobs will have to be moved from the UK')

This choice to leave has negatively affected not only us but other countries and it hasn't even been 24 hours since we got the results.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Finally, the directives are scrutinised by the directly elected European Parliament. After that they only become law within each member state by the directly elected member state parliaments creating laws to enact them.

Any changes made by the parliament to legislature must be approved by the commission, the unelected body that it is supposedly meant to be a check on. There's also the issue of unclear committees and lobbyist influence. This is in the service of the EU's function as a trade union. Countries aren't meant to be able to genuinely oppose its economic policy. Look at all the nonsense with Greece and the general mad boner the European elite has for austerity.

 Otto Weston wrote:
Forgetting all Campaign promises (on both sides) or predicted outcomes.
Look at the facts now.

Since 'we' voted Leave:
- The Pound has plummeted, twice as bad as the infamous 'Black Wednesday'.
- Scotland is calling for another referendum.
- Ireland is looking for their own referendum.
- Economies across the globe are taking a hit (For example, Japan dropping 8% or Australia dropping 3%)
- Our own Economy has lost £125 BILLION since yesterday.
- Companies have already begun to cut jobs in the UK (For example, J.P.Morgan telling its employees in a letter 'some jobs will have to be moved from the UK')

This choice to leave has negatively affected not only us but other countries and it hasn't even been 24 hours since we got the results.

There's cutting off your nose to spite your face and then there's slitting your throat to spite your face. The "leavers" chose the latter...well played! That'll show the EU!

I wish Frazzled luck

http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/6/24/1542098/-Meanwhile-in-the-Lone-Star-state-a-secessionist-Texit-campaign-gains-steam-after-the-Brexit-vote?detail=facebook

On a more serious note I hope the Brexit isnt a sign of things to come in the US. A platform built on fears of outsiders, jigonism and some may even say plain racism spearheadded by the older well off segment of the population, clearly on the Right of the politisphere; sounds uncomfortably similar to a platform being endorsed by a certain overripe orange with a bad case of mold on the top

 BigWaaagh wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Forgetting all Campaign promises (on both sides) or predicted outcomes.
Look at the facts now.

Since 'we' voted Leave:
- The Pound has plummeted, twice as bad as the infamous 'Black Wednesday'.
- Scotland is calling for another referendum.
- Ireland is looking for their own referendum.
- Economies across the globe are taking a hit (For example, Japan dropping 8% or Australia dropping 3%)
- Our own Economy has lost £125 BILLION since yesterday.
- Companies have already begun to cut jobs in the UK (For example, J.P.Morgan telling its employees in a letter 'some jobs will have to be moved from the UK')

This choice to leave has negatively affected not only us but other countries and it hasn't even been 24 hours since we got the results.

There's cutting off your nose to spite your face and then there's slitting your throat to spite your face. The "leavers" chose the latter...well played! That'll show the EU!

It's not about showing anyone, it was about the freedom of the people to choose not to be part of a federal Europe..

Come back to us when you have such freedom in the US; assuming you have time from prepping and 2nd Amendment gun shenanigans.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I wish Frazzled luck

http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/6/24/1542098/-Meanwhile-in-the-Lone-Star-state-a-secessionist-Texit-campaign-gains-steam-after-the-Brexit-vote?detail=facebook

On a more serious note I hope the Brexit isnt a sign of things to come in the US. A platform built on fears of outsiders, jigonism and some may even say plain racism spearheadded by the older well off segment of the population, clearly on the Right of the politisphere; sounds uncomfortably similar to a platform being endorsed by a certain overripe orange with a bad case of mold on the top

Absolutely the same dynamics at play. Very scary, indeed!

 Iron_Captain wrote:

That the EU enforces an economic order that somehow only benefits "core nations" is just bs.

Germany repressing wages and using the Euro as a battering ram to crush southern European economies through exports rather disagrees.

Mega City 3 here we come...

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

That the EU enforces an economic order that somehow only benefits "core nations" is just bs.

Germany repressing wages and using the Euro as a battering ram to crush southern European economies through exports rather disagrees.

Germany did not crush southern European economies. Not at all! In fact, Germany has spent billions of euros (all paid for by the German people) to save southern European economies. If anything, Germany is the one that suffers most because of the EU, because it has to pay for the economical mismanagement of southern Europeans. Southern Europeans may not like the German-imposed austerity measures, but without the EU and those measures, they'd be much, much worse off.

 Otto Weston wrote:
Forgetting all Campaign promises (on both sides) or predicted outcomes.
Look at the facts now.

Since 'we' voted Leave:
- The Pound has plummeted, twice as bad as the infamous 'Black Wednesday'.

And has recovered to what it was 14 days ago

- Scotland is calling for another referendum.

Whats new there then any reason will do sturgeon has been threatening scince the last one.

- Ireland is looking for their own referendum.

One party and all the others have said no.

- Economies across the globe are taking a hit (For example, Japan dropping 8% or Australia dropping 3%)

Thats what investers get for betting on an unknown.


- Our own Economy has lost £125 BILLION since yesterday.

Markets are down just 160 or so points and still higher than last week

- Companies have already begun to cut jobs in the UK (For example, J.P.Morgan telling its employees in a letter 'some jobs will have to be moved from the UK')

Speculation and companys move staff all the time.

This choice to leave has negatively affected not only us but other countries and it hasn't even been 24 hours since we got the results.

My replies after the points.

You shouldn't talk about the economy. It has been one day since the vote. And everyone got upset because Remain was supposed to win and they poured money into it.



Give it a month and then start talking about the economy.

A month? I thought this was forever.

Well give it a month to see if there is a short term effect on the economy. Then see how it moves after that.

 welshhoppo wrote:
Well give it a month to see if there is a short term effect on the economy. Then see how it moves after that.

There is no if, the pound has tanked and banks are starting to leave the UK already. There will be a detrimental financial affect. What remains to be seen is how long it will last for.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Well give it a month to see if there is a short term effect on the economy. Then see how it moves after that.

There is no if, the pound has tanked and banks are starting to leave the UK already. There will be a detrimental financial affect. What remains to be seen is how long it will last for.

the pound has not "tanked" yet (well it did but rebounded $1 = 1.37 pounds), but it has been dropping but this has been an ongoing trend for the past couple of years. furthermore the Euro is not faring any better at 1.11 per $1,, will both groups survive? most likely will there be effect? most definitely, will the world keep turning?