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That is true, though. Scotland as a new nation would have had to apply for membership of the EU like Slovenia or Latvia.
What if they get their act together, negotiate with the French and Germans,and sort out a Scottish exit within 2 years whilst still a member of the EU?
I can imagine our Euro cousins might enjoy the ramifications and humiliation of England I those circumstances, and it might serve as warning to other countries considering their own indy ref.
I think this is a real possibility.
They will do it to f*ck us over and I don't blame them.
Spoiler:
England has declared economic war on Europe. I don't think people have comprehended the depths of hatred this will unleash. On C4 this evening, a Polish MEP was invoking the Polish airmen that died in the Battle of Britain and saying, don't expect any more.
Remember, the Poles lost their freedom and didn't get it back fully until the EU. And now the English have told them to feth off because their plumbers are too good.
I sensed his hate - and I know he was right. I felt profoundly ashamed. We have not begun to experience the magnitude of this . There are some deluded souls in the tory party revelling in the possible collapse of the whole EU project. But the guilt will be on us.
Traitor!
That polish dude needs some perspective - we rescued their pilots from capture by the nazi's and helped win back Europe; trying to say they did it out of some kind of 'good faith' arrangement is just wrong and misleading; don't get caught up in his emotive verbiage.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..
Yodhrin wrote: A quick self-serving note for any Europhiles in rUK - keep in mind that the franchise in Scotland is dependent on residence not nationality, so if you want to keep your EU citizenship feel free to move up here before indyref2 and vote away, we've plenty of room
Thanks for the offer but I'm going to get Irish citizenship instead, it's not dependant on referendums
That is true, though. Scotland as a new nation would have had to apply for membership of the EU like Slovenia or Latvia. What if they get their act together, negotiate with the French and Germans,and sort out a Scottish exit within 2 years whilst still a member of the EU? I can imagine our Euro cousins might enjoy the ramifications and humiliation of England I those circumstances, and it might serve as warning to other countries considering their own indy ref.
I think this is a real possibility.
They will do it to f*ck us over and I don't blame them.
Spoiler:
England has declared economic war on Europe. I don't think people have comprehended the depths of hatred this will unleash. On C4 this evening, a Polish MEP was invoking the Polish airmen that died in the Battle of Britain and saying, don't expect any more.
Remember, the Poles lost their freedom and didn't get it back fully until the EU. And now the English have told them to feth off because their plumbers are too good.
I sensed his hate - and I know he was right. I felt profoundly ashamed. We have not begun to experience the magnitude of this . There are some deluded souls in the tory party revelling in the possible collapse of the whole EU project. But the guilt will be on us.
Traitor!
That polish dude needs some perspective - we rescued their pilots from capture by the nazi's and helped win back Europe; trying to say they did it out of some kind of 'good faith' arrangement is just wrong and misleading; don't get caught up in his emotive verbiage.
But the poles massively hastened the end of the whole war before it even began. If it weren't for them breaking the 3 rotor enigma machine and sharing their success with the allies before being conquered, Bletchley Park would not have succeeded in cracking the more complex machines anywhere near as fast as it did, if at all.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/24 23:59:04
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
A Town Called Malus wrote: The petition for requiring a 60% majority with 75% turnout has hit 390k signatures.
Wait so the sore losers want to remove the winners victory (essentially giving them victory) because the majority aren't majority enough for their tastes?
The people who sign that petition are pathetic.
Nah, they are smart.
I agree with them. Decisions this huge and impactful should not be decided by such tiny majorities because doing something virtually half the people disagrees with is not very democratic any way you look at it. Especially when you consider that places like Scotland, Gibraltar and London voted overwhelmingly in favour of the EU and are now forced to go along with what England and Wales decided just because they happen to have larger populations. That is no democracy, that is tyranny of the majority. It is for this reason that many states require supermajorities of 65%, 75% or even larger for changes to their constitution. I think the same should apply to decisions that are similarly impactful.
You can say the exact same in reverse though to a word.
I agree with them. Decisions this huge and impactful should not be decided by such minorities because doing something over half the people disagrees with is not very democratic any way you look at it. Especially when you consider that places like England and Wales voted overwhelmingly in favour of leaving the EU and are now forced to go along with what London and Scotland decided just because they happen to have smaller populations. That is no democracy, that is tyranny of the minority.
I think this is a real possibility. They will do it to f*ck us over and I don't blame them.
England has declared economic war on Europe. I don't think people have comprehended the depths of hatred this will unleash.
Yeah, Juncker, the president of the EU Commission, already said what pretty much amounted to a nice way of saying "The British people voted leave, so now GTFO." I don't think the EU will make things easy for the UK and agree to years of negotiations and special treaties. Juncker's "no matter how painful this process will be" really sounds like a veiled threat.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/683042/EU-referendum-Brexit-Britain-leaves
I think this is a real possibility. They will do it to f*ck us over and I don't blame them.
England has declared economic war on Europe. I don't think people have comprehended the depths of hatred this will unleash.
Yeah, Juncker, the president of the EU Commission, already said what pretty much amounted to a nice way of saying "The British people voted leave, so now GTFO." I don't think the EU will make things easy for the UK and agree to years of negotiations and special treaties. Juncker's "no matter how painful this process will be" really sounds like a veiled threat. http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/683042/EU-referendum-Brexit-Britain-leaves
People seem to have forgotten that the EUs job is to get the best deal for the EU. If we're not in it anymore then it's job is to gouge us for everything it can get, same as our politicians against it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/25 00:01:48
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Yodhrin wrote: A quick self-serving note for any Europhiles in rUK - keep in mind that the franchise in Scotland is dependent on residence not nationality, so if you want to keep your EU citizenship feel free to move up here before indyref2 and vote away, we've plenty of room
Whilst I am sorely tempted by that to be brutally honest, unfortunately I simply can't do it because I'm a poor, indebted, obligated university student in England
Sigh.
Putting aside all economic and political motivations aside, I believed the EU was a step in the right direction for the unification of the Human Species as a whole; since the advent of Nuclear Weaponry, global unification through war became a nigh-impossibility (especially if you don't count global annihilation as unification).
A Town Called Malus wrote: The petition for requiring a 60% majority with 75% turnout has hit 390k signatures.
Wait so the sore losers want to remove the winners victory (essentially giving them victory) because the majority aren't majority enough for their tastes?
The people who sign that petition are pathetic.
Nah, they are smart.
I agree with them. Decisions this huge and impactful should not be decided by such tiny majorities because doing something virtually half the people disagrees with is not very democratic any way you look at it. Especially when you consider that places like Scotland, Gibraltar and London voted overwhelmingly in favour of the EU and are now forced to go along with what England and Wales decided just because they happen to have larger populations. That is no democracy, that is tyranny of the majority. It is for this reason that many states require supermajorities of 65%, 75% or even larger for changes to their constitution. I think the same should apply to decisions that are similarly impactful.
You can say the exact same in reverse though to a word.
I agree with them. Decisions this huge and impactful should not be decided by such minorities because doing something over half the people disagrees with is not very democratic any way you look at it. Especially when you consider that places like England and Wales voted overwhelmingly in favour of leaving the EU and are now forced to go along with what London and Scotland decided just because they happen to have smaller populations. That is no democracy, that is tyranny of the minority.
Uh... no.
Remaining in the EU would not have been a big, impactful decision. The UK already was in the EU, so it would just have meant the rejection of the changes proposed in the referendum. Things would have just carried on as they were.
That is an important difference. Supermajorities should be needed for making big changes, not for not making big changes (that is quite frankly a ridiculous idea).
A Town Called Malus wrote: The petition for requiring a 60% majority with 75% turnout has hit 390k signatures.
Wait so the sore losers want to remove the winners victory (essentially giving them victory) because the majority aren't majority enough for their tastes?
The people who sign that petition are pathetic.
Nah, they are smart. I agree with them. Decisions this huge and impactful should not be decided by such tiny majorities because doing something virtually half the people disagrees with is not very democratic any way you look at it. Especially when you consider that places like Scotland, Gibraltar and London voted overwhelmingly in favour of the EU and are now forced to go along with what England and Wales decided just because they happen to have larger populations. That is no democracy, that is tyranny of the majority. It is for this reason that many states require supermajorities of 65%, 75% or even larger for changes to their constitution. I think the same should apply to decisions that are similarly impactful.
You can say the exact same in reverse though to a word.
I agree with them. Decisions this huge and impactful should not be decided by such minorities because doing something over half the people disagrees with is not very democratic any way you look at it. Especially when you consider that places like England and Wales voted overwhelmingly in favour of leaving the EU and are now forced to go along with what London and Scotland decided just because they happen to have smaller populations. That is no democracy, that is tyranny of the minority.
Uh... no. Remaining in the EU would not have been a big, impactful decision. The UK already was in the EU, so it would just have meant the rejection of the changes proposed in the referendum. Things would have just carried on as they were. That is an important difference. Supermajorities should be needed for making big changes, not for not making big changes (that is quite frankly a ridiculous idea).
I disagree. This sort of petition should be done beforehand not afterwards. It was clear it would be decided by majority vote. These people only complain because they lost.
I would agree had the issue of how to decide how much majority is needed was beforehand because it is a very real concern. (If this was an issue before hand I missed it). The time for change is over, it has been done. They missed both their chances.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/25 00:07:26
A Town Called Malus wrote: The petition for requiring a 60% majority with 75% turnout has hit 390k signatures.
Wait so the sore losers want to remove the winners victory (essentially giving them victory) because the majority aren't majority enough for their tastes?
The people who sign that petition are pathetic.
Nah, they are smart.
I agree with them. Decisions this huge and impactful should not be decided by such tiny majorities because doing something virtually half the people disagrees with is not very democratic any way you look at it. Especially when you consider that places like Scotland, Gibraltar and London voted overwhelmingly in favour of the EU and are now forced to go along with what England and Wales decided just because they happen to have larger populations. That is no democracy, that is tyranny of the majority. It is for this reason that many states require supermajorities of 65%, 75% or even larger for changes to their constitution. I think the same should apply to decisions that are similarly impactful.
You can say the exact same in reverse though to a word.
I agree with them. Decisions this huge and impactful should not be decided by such minorities because doing something over half the people disagrees with is not very democratic any way you look at it. Especially when you consider that places like England and Wales voted overwhelmingly in favour of leaving the EU and are now forced to go along with what London and Scotland decided just because they happen to have smaller populations. That is no democracy, that is tyranny of the minority.
Uh... no.
Remaining in the EU would not have been a big, impactful decision. The UK already was in the EU, so it would just have meant the rejection of the changes proposed in the referendum. Things would have just carried on as they were.
That is an important difference. Supermajorities should be needed for making big changes, not for not making big changes (that is quite frankly a ridiculous idea).
I disagree. This sort of petition should be done beforehand not afterwards. It was clear it would be decided by majority vote. These people only complain because they lost.
I would agree had the issue of how to decide how much majority is needed was beforehand because it is a very real concern. (If this was an issue before hand I missed it). The time for change is over, it has been done. They missed both their chances.
Nigel Farage (supporting the winning side), said before the Referendum that if Leave had lost by 48 - 52 (turns out they won by that), he wouldn't have accepted it and he would have pushed for another Referendum. Now he's won, he's completely forgetting that.
A Town Called Malus wrote: The petition for requiring a 60% majority with 75% turnout has hit 390k signatures.
Wait so the sore losers want to remove the winners victory (essentially giving them victory) because the majority aren't majority enough for their tastes?
The people who sign that petition are pathetic.
Nah, they are smart.
I agree with them. Decisions this huge and impactful should not be decided by such tiny majorities because doing something virtually half the people disagrees with is not very democratic any way you look at it. Especially when you consider that places like Scotland, Gibraltar and London voted overwhelmingly in favour of the EU and are now forced to go along with what England and Wales decided just because they happen to have larger populations. That is no democracy, that is tyranny of the majority. It is for this reason that many states require supermajorities of 65%, 75% or even larger for changes to their constitution. I think the same should apply to decisions that are similarly impactful.
You can say the exact same in reverse though to a word.
I agree with them. Decisions this huge and impactful should not be decided by such minorities because doing something over half the people disagrees with is not very democratic any way you look at it. Especially when you consider that places like England and Wales voted overwhelmingly in favour of leaving the EU and are now forced to go along with what London and Scotland decided just because they happen to have smaller populations. That is no democracy, that is tyranny of the minority.
Uh... no.
Remaining in the EU would not have been a big, impactful decision. The UK already was in the EU, so it would just have meant the rejection of the changes proposed in the referendum. Things would have just carried on as they were.
That is an important difference. Supermajorities should be needed for making big changes, not for not making big changes (that is quite frankly a ridiculous idea).
I disagree. This sort of petition should be done beforehand not afterwards. It was clear it would be decided by majority vote. These people only complain because they lost.
I would agree had the issue of how to decide how much majority is needed was beforehand because it is a very real concern. (If this was an issue before hand I missed it). The time for change is over, it has been done. They missed both their chances.
Yes, I can agree that changing the requirements should not be done afterwards anymore. Still, it would be for the good of democracy and the entire British nation, even those who voted leave
I find it incredulous how many of my Leave voting friends and family called me 'butthurt' at the result, as well as the petition that's already reached 400,000 signatures.
I'm not 'butthurt', I can accept decisions, I accepted the general election outcomes despite them not being the result I wanted. I'm just very concerned about my future. My career in science is probably dead without the EU funding into research facilities.
The banks have also started to considering moving their money/HQ to Frankfurt and Dublin.
It's worth keeping in mind, the 5 Presidents Report specifically is about making big changes for Europe, expected to be done in 2025.
In other words. 9 years time. To put things in context, the first Bayformers film came out 9 years ago. That really isn't a long span of time at all.
A lot of the posts just take me back to the, well, goals, I suppose you could call them in the speech.
"I want to speak directly to the millions of people who did not vote for this outcome, especially young people who may feel that this decision involves somehow pulling up the drawbridge because I think the very opposite is true. We cannot turn our backs on Europe. We are part of Europe, our children and our grandchildren will continue to have a wonderful future as Europeans, travelling to the continent, understanding the languages and the cultures that make up our common European civilisation, continuing to interact with the peoples of other countries in a way that is open and friendly and outward looking. "
So many people just want to focus on the negative cynicism and as any business training ends up repeating and repeating, that sort of negative cynicism ends up causing the thing people are being cynical about.
Just because being roommates can be cause tension if they're not the right mesh of people doesn't mean that being next-door neighbours will go the same way.
And, if we do this right, maybe both the EU and the UK can be better off from this.
A spokesman for Morgan Stanley told the Independent that the reports were untrue and that the bank has no immediate plans to make changes.
“The UK’s vote to leave the European Union is a very significant decision which will have a considerable impact, the extent of which will not be known for some time," the spokesman said.
"There will be at least a period of two years before an actual exit takes place, so there will be time to implement any changes required to adjust our business to the new environment. Morgan Stanley will continue to monitor developments very closely and will adapt accordingly while prioritising the interests of our clients, our shareholders and our employees," he added.
Yet, I imagine this will be brought up another dozen times in this thread and many other discussions.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/25 00:31:49
That polish dude needs some perspective - we rescued their pilots from capture by the nazi's and helped win back Europe; trying to say they did it out of some kind of 'good faith' arrangement is just wrong and misleading; don't get caught up in his emotive verbiage.
Sometimes I'm so ashamed of my countrymen
Many Polish pilots fought the Germans in Poland, then in France, then made their way to Britain. Under their own steam.
Then they got abandoned at Potsdam. Understandable, realpolitik, but still.
They were the ally when all the sh*tstorm that we invoke all the time kicked off. And now we've left them. While the KGB fella waits in the wings.
Yodhrin wrote: A quick self-serving note for any Europhiles in rUK - keep in mind that the franchise in Scotland is dependent on residence not nationality, so if you want to keep your EU citizenship feel free to move up here before indyref2 and vote away, we've plenty of room
Thanks for the offer but I'm going to get Irish citizenship instead, it's not dependant on referendums
That is true, though. Scotland as a new nation would have had to apply for membership of the EU like Slovenia or Latvia.
What if they get their act together, negotiate with the French and Germans,and sort out a Scottish exit within 2 years whilst still a member of the EU?
I can imagine our Euro cousins might enjoy the ramifications and humiliation of England I those circumstances, and it might serve as warning to other countries considering their own indy ref.
I think this is a real possibility.
They will do it to f*ck us over and I don't blame them.
Spoiler:
England has declared economic war on Europe. I don't think people have comprehended the depths of hatred this will unleash. On C4 this evening, a Polish MEP was invoking the Polish airmen that died in the Battle of Britain and saying, don't expect any more.
Remember, the Poles lost their freedom and didn't get it back fully until the EU. And now the English have told them to feth off because their plumbers are too good.
I sensed his hate - and I know he was right. I felt profoundly ashamed. We have not begun to experience the magnitude of this . There are some deluded souls in the tory party revelling in the possible collapse of the whole EU project. But the guilt will be on us.
Traitor!
That polish dude needs some perspective - we rescued their pilots from capture by the nazi's and helped win back Europe; trying to say they did it out of some kind of 'good faith' arrangement is just wrong and misleading; don't get caught up in his emotive verbiage.
But the poles massively hastened the end of the whole war before it even began. If it weren't for them breaking the 3 rotor enigma machine and sharing their success with the allies before being conquered, Bletchley Park would not have succeeded in cracking the more complex machines anywhere near as fast as it did, if at all.
Absoluteley! They were pivotal in the war effort, the polish resistance being responsible for some of my favourite war stories.
We drive past the polish war memorial when we go to london, so i suppose in a way he has highlighted an issue we will need to resolve with sympathy - allowing polish war veterans and their families free movment through our borders to visit the polish war memorial and potentially their graves. (assuming they haven't been exhumed and repatriated)
That polish dude needs some perspective - we rescued their pilots from capture by the nazi's and helped win back Europe; trying to say they did it out of some kind of 'good faith' arrangement is just wrong and misleading; don't get caught up in his emotive verbiage.
Sometimes I'm so ashamed of my countrymen
Many Polish pilots fought the Germans in Poland, then in France, then made their way to Britain. Under their own steam.
Then they got abandoned at Potsdam. Understandable, realpolitik, but still.
They were the ally when all the sh*tstorm that we invoke all the time kicked off. And now we've left them. While the KGB fella waits in the wings.
Why be ashamed? i'll admit it's blunt, but it's true.
All surviving polish airforce planes got captured and they made their way through occupied territory, throough france and escaped to britain.
Fishermen from both sides probably were responsible for the channel crossing section but we took them in when they needed it and then gave them a warplane to exact some payback.
Those men (heroes, potentially?) who died over our skies did so on their own terms because at the time it wasn't about who's from which country, it was about stopping the nazi ideology.
Agreed - poland got hung out to dry at least three times by the 'allies', i recon.
Russia is complicated - I dunno, NATO needs to up it's response mechanisms, but i get the feeling that putin is getting tired of the games. some of the statements i see him make (assuming that the translator isn't pranking him) are almost reasonable. But as he is an an ex-KGB man i would be expecting him to do something sneaky, even if it's just force of habbit for him.
"sorry, i appear to have left an exclusion for putting russian nuclear weapons next to the american ones in your country within this document.."
Edit: i rally need some sleep!
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/06/25 02:02:46
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..
What if those who prefer to be place their allegiences with brussels rather than the UK could be given EU citizenship with indefinite leave to remain in the UK? I am sure something could be worked out to that end. The UK coming out of the EU just means we are not their subjects and they can't pass legislation over us, it doesn't mean EU patriots have to be deported.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/25 02:03:10
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..
I'm not sure what else to call them? A lot of thin skinned people started crying when I called them traitors. "Patriot" is a lot more flattering don't you think?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/25 02:10:24
If it does happen it might not mean what the scaremongers like to imply aka rats deserting sinking ship.
Major banks with EU headquarters in London will also need new headquarters elsewhere, interest in the city will not diminish, and for every financial institution needing to move some of its staff out of the UK to another Eu country other with no current presence in the UK will want to make the opposite move to ensure they are represented everywhere.
Kilkrazy wrote: You're ignoring the result of the 2014 referendum that rejected independence by 55:45 and you want a new referendum.
That's a completely ridiculous claim and you know it is. It's like saying I'm ignoring the result of the last general election because I'm campaigning in the next one for a party that didn't win it. Scotland remains within the UK and no serious voices from the independence movement have argued for a UDI - those are the only two requirements for the 2014 result being respected. The question was "Should Scotland be an independent country?", not "Should Scotland be an independent country and after this nobody can argue differently or change their mind for at least twenty years". A pro-indy majority in the Scottish parliament was considered sufficient justification for a referendum last time, so what is different - is there some quota of self-determination that we have exceeded?
Referenda are not like parliamentary elections, you can't have the with any regularity. You certainly cant have a case of repeat until successful.
Had Scotland voted Yes and left and found they cant afford Salmonds false promises, would the SNP be lining up to offer a chance to redeem the mistake. I wouldn't count on it.
Better Together explicitly and repeatedly tied voting No to retaining EU citizenship, and for a lot of people that was a major motivator in how they chose to vote. I don't see how it's unreasonable given the democratically-elected(and a good deal moreso than WM) Scottish Parliament election results two months ago, to offer those people a chance to reconsider. And I don't see why we should make that offer based on when it's most convenient for the government which is making t necessary in the first place.
Better Together did indeed imply that voting No meant continued EU membership. This is what you got. Had Scotland voted 'Yes' you would have been out of the EU there and then. When Scotland voted 'No' it was not without knowledge that a referendum was coming on EU membership, a No vote confirmed that Scots were UK citizens and would be balloted. The people decided, it matters not which 52% voted out of Europe, Scots do not and should have special privilege status within the UK democratic medium.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Regarding the allegation that Farage is "backtracking" on taking the £350m we give to to the EU and using it for the NHS...thats utter bs. The Official Leave Campaign made that pledge. Farage was not part of that campaign, he helped lead a separate campaign. He had no part in making that pledge.
That ITV/Good Morning interview was an ignorant hit piece attacking Farage for something he wasn't responsible for.
What a pity that Farage was happy to let the false claim slide for weeks during the campaign. I am sure it was all justified in the support of a greater cause.
Who confirmed it was a 'false claim'?
Who made the claim, do you know?
Have those who made the advert said they wont honour it?
Have those who made the advert been in a position to honour it?
Also have you seen what the claim said.
There is no promise to give ALL the 350 million to the NHS, just an indication that the NHS would be a better investment with the money.
It could even be supported as it is anticipatory.
I'd rather attack him for being a frog faced little englander.
Why would you make that any better?
Calling someone a 'Little Englander'under its current context is basically like calling someone the n-word.
Would you call someone a Little American, or a Little Frenchman or a Little Scot. They can wave flags just as much as the English can
You denegrate people for being English and proud of it, in ways that any other subculture would be respected for, and defended in so doing. Everyone else can be loud and proud about their culture, so why cant the English?
Wyrmalla wrote: So much for fear mongering to vote no two years ago, where the Scots being told if they went independent they'd be kicked out of the EU...
That is true, though. Scotland as a new nation would have had to apply for membership of the EU like Slovenia or Latvia.
My point being that, and it was said at the time, if we stayed in Britain we would be leaving regardless - which has come to pass.
Par the course for driveling propaganda these days in the UK though.
I can sympathise with that position, but it was no secret in 2014 that this referendum was coming. You cant say you were not balloted as UK citizens. You also dont have special snowflake privilege to override the majority.
The outcome is unfortunate and the Scottish government has every reason to table options and seek consultation with the EU and Westminster.
Nigel Farage (supporting the winning side), said before the Referendum that if Leave had lost by 48 - 52 (turns out they won by that), he wouldn't have accepted it and he would have pushed for another Referendum. Now he's won, he's completely forgetting that.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendum-7985017
That was Farage being a dick. Had Leave lost he would have been told to put up and shut up, and rightly so.
Even the concept of multiple referenda is permanently destabilising, as nothing is ever secure again.
That polish dude needs some perspective - we rescued their pilots from capture by the nazi's and helped win back Europe; trying to say they did it out of some kind of 'good faith' arrangement is just wrong and misleading; don't get caught up in his emotive verbiage.
Sometimes I'm so ashamed of my countrymen
Many Polish pilots fought the Germans in Poland, then in France, then made their way to Britain. Under their own steam.
Then they got abandoned at Potsdam. Understandable, realpolitik, but still.
They were the ally when all the sh*tstorm that we invoke all the time kicked off. And now we've left them. While the KGB fella waits in the wings.
The smarter Poles and Czechs didnt attempt to return home in 1945, and they were warned of the consequences and offered UK citizenship. I know many WW2 era Polish and Czech families, the post war generations of them are indistinguishable from native Britons except by surname.
There was little to nothing that UK or USA for that matter could reasonable do about Stalins position in eastern Europe. With sole exception of the Vienna deal. Poland however was behind lines.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Certain Americans are - I am one such. Europe is not a nation; therefore one cannot be a "Europatriot" ... and indeed the very notion of holding your own nation in such low regard as to conceptualize renouncing citizenship in favor of some abstract neoliberal scheme like the European Union is the very antithesis of patriotism.
How so? I thought Americans were big on patriotism?
When you're aligning the term with "Traitors"...
I guess half the UK are "traitors" then. Oh well, off you pop to start a civil war on your own.
People are aware that the EU isn't going to dissolve overnight, and that plenty support it right? All this anti-EU rhetoric maybe isn't a great idea considering that where our largest trading partners reside.
Manchu wrote: Certain Americans are - I am one such. Europe is not a nation; therefore one cannot be a "Europatriot" ... and indeed the very notion of holding your own nation in such low regard as to conceptualize renouncing citizenship in favor of some abstract neoliberal scheme like the European Union is the very antithesis of patriotism.
The EU is intended to become a nation, that is the next phase of the project. It already has some patriots as this thread bears witness. With the passing of the decades that patriotism will be propagated through EU controlled schooling. I am fairly sure that the development of the USA out of the 13 colonies, though the various independent states, to the post-civil war union and on, is the very model the EU is hoping to ape.
Euroskepticism will never be a concern in Germany given the EU is the improbable means by which Berlin has at long last dominated the continent. But what about France? The day may come there, as it already has in Britain.
Wyrmalla wrote: So much for fear mongering to vote no two years ago, where the Scots being told if they went independent they'd be kicked out of the EU...
That is true, though. Scotland as a new nation would have had to apply for membership of the EU like Slovenia or Latvia.
My point being that, and it was said at the time, if we stayed in Britain we would be leaving regardless - which has come to pass.
Par the course for driveling propaganda these days in the UK though.
I can sympathise with that position, but it was no secret in 2014 that this referendum was coming. You cant say you were not balloted as UK citizens. You also dont have special snowflake privilege to override the majority.
The outcome is unfortunate and the Scottish government has every reason to table options and seek consultation with the EU and Westminster.
We'll have to see what Westminster looks like over the coming year. Either the new government will be pro-devolution or against it (the current one offered more powers, then went back on their word).
I'm suspecting the new administration will continue with the bull, perhaps yes calling Scotland a special snowflake, whilst the UK itself goes independent over its "me, me, me" desires.
Woe betide the SNP going up against a far right Tory party or UKIP at a questions time. I can imagine Nicola Sturgeon facepalming a lot like her predecessor.
To be clear, the US was a single nation from its inception. The ACW was a very bloody demonstration of that pre-existing fact.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, can Brits really detect no irony in romanticizing Euro-federalism in one breath while discussing an "inevitable" second Scottish independence referendum in the very next?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/25 02:31:11
I guess half the UK are "traitors" then. Oh well, off you pop to start a civil war on your own.
People are aware that the EU isn't going to dissolve overnight, and that plenty support it right? All this anti-EU rhetoric maybe isn't a great idea considering that where our largest trading partners reside.
You should try to see the world through two eyes not just one; you will get a better perspective. Traitor and patriot are opposite sides of the same coin. I am a british patriot therefore I am also a traitor to the EU. The 13 colonists who betrayed his Majesty King George III just so they could keep slavery going a bit longer and avoid paying the pensions of British Officers who risked their lives defending them from the expansion of the French Empire were traitors but in their own national mythology were patriots... Those colonists that prefered to remain loyalists were called traitors by the "patriots". If one term fits then very often the other does too from another perspective. I am willing to use the more flattering term patriot for those whose allegiances are with Brussels rather than Her Majesty and her loyalist subjects, is this not agreeable to you? What else shall we call you?
Manchu wrote: Certain Americans are - I am one such. Europe is not a nation; therefore one cannot be a "Europatriot" ... and indeed the very notion of holding your own nation in such low regard as to conceptualize renouncing citizenship in favor of some abstract neoliberal scheme like the European Union is the very antithesis of patriotism.
The EU is intended to become a nation, that is the next phase of the project. It already has some patriots as this thread bears witness. With the passing of the decades that patriotism will be propagated through EU controlled schooling. I am fairly sure that the development of the USA out of the 13 colonies, though the various independent states, to the post-civil war union and on, is the very model the EU is hoping to ape.
Here mister, please have this tinfoil hat: It will prevent the Eurocrats from reading your mind and learning that you know of their dastardly schemes!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/25 02:48:08
