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I am not sure what to call British people who wish to renounce their citizenship out of loyalty to the EU (if such a phenomenon even exists) but I think calling them British anymore strains credulity, unless they are midtwenties and younger (callow youth and all that). When our forbears betrayed their rightful sovereign, they did not do so under the pretense that they were British any longer, or even that they had been for some time.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/25 02:47:01
Wyrmalla wrote: How about don't call people traitors as it a needlessly derogatory phrase for an internet discussion.
I may do so, is EU-patriot more acceptable? Also what do you think about a deal with the EU where EU patriots can be given EU citizenship from brussels whilst also getting indefinite leave to remain from the UK Home Office? You can have your cake and eat it then, no?
The current legal concept of EU "citizenship" is not analagous to national citizenship. It is contingent upon the state to which a person is a citizen being a member of the EU.
Manchu wrote: The current legal concept of EU "citizenship" is not analagous to national citizenship. It is contingent upon the state to which a person is a citizen being a member of the EU.
For the time being yes. So in the interim those former British nationals taking up Eu-citizenship could take up in parallel Irish or Belgian or other citizenship, until the EU finally phases out such legal concepts.
For what it's worth, I don't think the majority of Bremainers are happy with the current EU and wanted to see reform from within Europe.
Sure and I bet still more don't follow politics closely enough to really have an idea which way they wanted to jump, but in the light of a lot scaremongering by the BBC and some politicians opted for the status quo. Nonetheless however few they may be, there are clearly some who have really quite strong allegiances to Brussels and even a hatred of Britain. It would be good to offer them something.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/25 03:12:08
Manchu wrote: The current legal concept of EU "citizenship" is not analagous to national citizenship. It is contingent upon the state to which a person is a citizen being a member of the EU.
For the time being yes. So in the interim those former British nationals taking up Eu-citizenship could take up in parallel Irish or Belgian or other citizenship, until the EU finally phases out such legal concepts.
SolarCross - I don't think allowing foreign nationals indefinite immigration status would go over well with Brexiters. Of course, the Brexiters would probably be glad to have them off the voting rolls and, with a political freehand at last, could ultimately have them deported.
Frozocrone - Agreed but it seems to have been a pipe dream in every way that matters to the other half of Britain. Berlin is economically and politically committed to free movement of people.
For what it's worth, I don't think the majority of Bremainers are happy with the current EU and wanted to see reform from within Europe.
That was why I was so close to voting remain. When it came down to it, I believed that the EU in its current state to be too stubborn and resistant to change for us to have any more impact than we already do. Like I said before, I was 49.5% remain 50.5% leave on the day.
The hatred and vitriol going around, though, plus my anxiety and having just come off anti-depressants... I just want to be reassured that I'm not a bad person for voting leave.
Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.
Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.
"You need not fear us, unless you are a dark heart, a vile one who preys on the innocent; I promise, you can’t hide forever in the empty darkness, for we will hunt you down like the animals you are, and pull you into the very bowels of hell." Iron - Within Temptation
As much as a foreigner has any business to say so, and perhaps that is none, I think Britain made not only the correct and wise choice but also that having done so demonstrated courage and conscience on the part of many.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/25 03:22:32
Manchu wrote: I am not sure what to call British people who wish to renounce their citizenship out of loyalty to the EU (if such a phenomenon even exists) but I think calling them British anymore strains credulity, unless they are midtwenties and younger (callow youth and all that). When our forbears betrayed their rightful sovereign, they did not do so under the pretense that they were British any longer, or even that they had been for some time.
You are from the USA by your flag, yes. So you have heard of Irish-Americans, African-Americans etc
The English normally become the core culture of the nations they develop, so there aren't English-Americans, per se, its more like a cultural default though the base ethnicity of the average American doesnt actually for that demographic..
Now things are changing and there are British people in countries in large numbers as expat communities, some won't be coming home after the referendum. There will be EU citizens who are choosing to stay, and Britons who are choosing not to return home or to leave to move to the continent while they can. People will need to choose where they want to live, Brexit needs to be drawn out long enough for those decvisions to be made and enacted upon, no matter what Juncker prefers..
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Manchu wrote: As much as a foreigner has any business to say so, and perhaps that is none, I think Britain made not only the correct and wise choice but also that having done so demonstrated courage and conscience on the part of many.
This is the feeling of every American I know who's had anything to say about the situation who isn't a diehard washed-in-blue liberal (and even a few of them, too). Good luck guys, and God bless
"African-American" is a euphemism for black folks. "Irish-American" either means someone born in Ireland who is now American or else it represents a kind of false nostalgia among certain whiite folks or might have something to do with the hobby of geneology. Point being, such terms - unlike the term British - have no legal significance. Brits living on the continent will need to see about dual citizenship (as in British and for example Spanish) if they are interested in retaining EU citizenship. I seriously doubt any would be interested, as a first option, in renouncing their UK citizenship.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/25 03:36:11
Manchu wrote: SolarCross - I don't think allowing foreign nationals indefinite immigration status would go over well with Brexiters. Of course, the Brexiters would probably be glad to have them off the voting rolls and, with a political freehand at last, could ultimately have them deported.
I think only the more obnoxious ones would object, sadly there are a few at least. We already have very many really foreign nationals with indefinite leave to remain and for the most part it is no bother at all. They can work, travel, buy property, do business, really everything except vote and hold public office. My wife is an Iranian national with indefinite leave to remain in the UK. We could get her "naturalised", of course, but there didn't seem a lot of reason to do so as the only difference it would make for her would be to vote but she is not interested. So for remainers, or Eu-patriots, it should be still less of a problem as they are still culturally british for the most part even if their loyalties lie elsewhere.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/25 04:03:29
Manchu wrote: "African-American" is a euphemism for black folks. "Irish-American" either means someone born in Ireland who is now American or else it represents a kind of false nostalgia among certain whiite folks or might have something to do with the hobby of geneology. Point being, such terms - unlike the term British - have no legal significance. Brits living on the continent will need to see about dual citizenship (as in British and for example Spanish) if they are interested in retaining EU citizenship. I seriously doubt any would be interested, as a first option, in renouncing their UK citizenship.
but what if it is a White person who's family has been in Africa for several generations and then moved to the US, would they be called an African American?
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
Manchu wrote: I think that status makes sense when a foreigner comes to live and work in the UK but no sense when a British person decides to become a foreigner.
Perhaps it is unusual, I think there are some that do so for tax reasons, for example. There is some precedent for it. When the UK leaves the EU then we will have some people who for all sorts of very good reasons will not want to move to the EU but who actually can't be trusted with privileges such as voting or holding public office because of their wayward loyalties but who otherwise would be no security risk. Such people really don't need to be deported and for reason of compassion should not be. Having citizenship of another country with indefinite leave to remain in the uk is an easy, already existing and well understood legal status that fits very exactly their needs whilst also limiting the security risk they pose. It might seem odd for a "british" person to be a legal foreigner in the land they live and work but it would work.
It's conceptually absurd. Permanent residence status makes sense as a theoretically transistionary step between visiting and being a citizen (and indeed many problems arise from the lack of full transition). But in the scenario you propose, it would be the endpoint. No nation should aim to harbor on a permanent basis immigrants who do not even have a hypothetical interest in full citizenship.
Manchu wrote: "African-American" is a euphemism for black folks. "Irish-American" either means someone born in Ireland who is now American or else it represents a kind of false nostalgia among certain whiite folks or might have something to do with the hobby of geneology. Point being, such terms - unlike the term British - have no legal significance. Brits living on the continent will need to see about dual citizenship (as in British and for example Spanish) if they are interested in retaining EU citizenship. I seriously doubt any would be interested, as a first option, in renouncing their UK citizenship.
but what if it is a White person who's family has been in Africa for several generations and then moved to the US, would they be called an African American?
They'd likely be called British, Afrikaner, or we'd just say "So and so is from X". "African-American" is an outlier in the naming convention used, because it refers to natives, rather than immigrants.
Manchu wrote: It's conceptually absurd. Permanent residence status makes sense as a theoretically transistionary step between visiting and being a citizen (and indeed many problems arise from the lack of full transition). But in the scenario you propose, it would be the endpoint. No nation should aim to harbor on a permanent basis immigrants who do not even have a hypothetical interest in full citizenship.
Perhaps in a republic but the UK is a kingdom, we don't all have to salute the flag. Loyalists can be trusted, enemies dealt with, but neutral people can be tolerated indefinitely. There is a third way.
It has nothing to do with being a republic or saluting any flags. The basic characteristic of a demodratic society is the participation of its members. Creating a permanent underclass without even hypothetical political rights undermines a democratic society.
Manchu wrote: It has nothing to do with being a republic or saluting any flags. The basic characteristic of a demodratic society is the participation of its members. Creating a permanent underclass without even hypothetical political rights undermines a democratic society.
They wouldn't be an underclass, they are just not trusted with a few sensitive privileges. They still have the usual rights, just not political ones. There really is no problem with that. If you make it some requirement that everyone must participate in political decision making, they you also necessarily make it a requirement for everyone to be loyal. Following the requirement of everyone being loyal and the reality that loyalties will vary considerably from person to person then the way is opened for personal surveillance, political correctness, indoctrination, indentity cards and other such nonsense. Making such unnecessary one size fits all compulsions is what leads to police states and totalitarianism. This is the failure of republics and their end point and why they end up being so very much less genial places to live than monarchies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/25 04:39:15
Calling someone a 'Little Englander'under its current context is basically like calling someone the n-word.
Another one of your little gems Orlanth.
I posted this already but as you evidently missed it.
"Little Englander" is an epithet applied in criticisms of British nationalists, English nationalists, or English people who are regarded as xenophobic and/or overly nationalistic and are often accused of being "ignorant" and "boorish". It is sometimes applied to opponents of globalism, multilateralism and internationalism, such as those who are against membership in the European Union.
You totally lost me on this loyalty thing ... The actual issue is that every member of a society has a right as a stakeholder to have some say in the course that society takes. In a democratic society, whether a constitutional monarchy or republic, that right is explicitly political and its manifestation is enfranchisement. Therefore, in a democratic society a permanently disenfranchised population would by definition be an underclass. And that is what you are proposing. It's pretty silly and I have honedtly lent it far more dignity than it deserves by switching ftom joking about Tories deporting "European" Britishers to explaining why renouncing UK citizenship in favor of becoming faux-Irish to keep from having to get stamps on your passport is really very seriously flawed.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/06/25 05:05:56
Wyrmalla wrote: "You're "disloyal", a "traitor", so we don't trust you with the full rights of a true patriotic citizen. Oh no, that would be dangerous".
I guess the current system is totally broken then and the House of Parliament will be blown up by this dissidents over breakfast.
God the language being used in this thread.
There is no need for hysteria. No one can serve two masters at once, with the Brexit everyone will have to decide which flag they follow or choose none (choosing none is perfectly fine). If you choose the EU you are a EU patriot and can no more be trusted with political privileges in the UK than you could be if you chose North Korea's flag or even the US. That is what the Brexit means. The EU will be a foreign power, possibly a friendly or benign one but nonetheless foreign. It is pretty obvious.
