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 Mr. Burning wrote:

Not to be petty can the UK rescind Scottish powers and refuse to acknowledge a referendum to leave? If Scotland is ruled by Westminster it has little choice, other than to secede...and it still ends in a position where it has to apply for EU membership.

Heres a thought for the day. What does the SNP do, in the event of leaving the Union, if their application to join the EU is rejected my the other member states?

Westminster will force through changes, that much is obvious, but just imagine the carnage that will cause to the already fraying Union.

I would be surprised in the extreme if Scotland was refused entry to the EU, especially given the noises coming from Brussels on the subject. Given that even Spain ended up supporting, at least semi officially, a potential Scottish EU membership before the Indyref I don't see that changing in the current climate.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Silent Puffin? wrote:
Potentially the Scottish Parliament I could veto Brexit by withholding their consent to amend the 1998 Scotland act which binds the SP to act within EU law......

Interesting....

Of course Westminster could simply force through the necessary legal changes but that would basically guarantee Scottish independence.....

That is interesting. And people couldn't even argue that it was undemocratic for Scotland to do so as Scotland voted to remain and the surest way to do that for Scottish MPs and MSPs would be to block it the amendment and so block the UK from exiting.

Not to be petty can the UK rescind Scottish powers and refuse to acknowledge a referendum to leave? If Scotland is ruled by Westminster it has little choice, other than to secede...and it still ends in a position where it has to apply for EU membership.

Heres a thought for the day. What does the SNP do, in the event of leaving the Union, if their application to join the EU is rejected my the other member states?

Well, they are already opening talks with the EU so they will probably have a deal in place when they call the referendum.

Which is exactly what should happen in the future, I think. After we have got these new deals negotiated but before we leave they should be released to the public, along with our current deals as part of the EU. Public can weigh up whether the new deal is better or worse and by how much and then vote in a final referendum. Give them hard facts to work with, instead of wishy-washy hand waving.

Only if that deal is membership of the EU. I really think they will be offered a lesser deal, being associate with but not part of the main bloc.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Will scotland keep the pound or could they opt for the Euro?

 Knockagh wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Spoiler:

 Knockagh wrote:
Due to the so called scandalous defeat of Northern Ireland by Wales tonight we are starting a petition! I mean who calls 1-0 a defeat!!! Outrageous!

Congrats on strawmanning an argument that is so current.

You say that because you must be racist and illiterate were as I have a degree in sociology from the university of twatingham were I got drunk for 4 years and now I work in a bank. Being the intelligent chap that I am my countries goals are worth 3 from any other country. It's just not fair! Mummy always told me I was really clever considering.... You see listening to me is democracy.

Four fallacies in one statement is completely impressive.

At this stage I would imagine that Scotland would use Sterling in the medium term and then transition into the Euro. The currency question is something that really needs sorted out though, Sterling was never viable and in fairness Ireland does perfectly fine with the Euro.

Of course Scotland could always return to the Unicorn......

Why do you think that Scotland will be offered some kind of lesser membership? Luxembourg and Malta are full members, why not Scotland?

Ireland also used Sterling after independence before switching to the Punt which was linked to sterling. It's not ideal but is perfectly workable.

Though given the current instability it's probably advisable for Scotland to play the currency issue fairly carefully.

I hope they let you guys stay in the EU, it would be the fairest and most decent thing to do.

I also hope it doesn't kick off again in the North.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Well, they are already opening talks with the EU so they will probably have a deal in place when they call the referendum.

Which is exactly what should happen in the future, I think. After we have got these new deals negotiated but before we actually invoke article 50 to leave they should be released to the public, along with our current deals as part of the EU. Public can weigh up whether the new deal is better or worse and by how much and then vote in a final referendum. Give them hard facts to work with, instead of wishy-washy hand waving.

Yep. New deal, new vote.

Remain wins. The people are now in line with the views of their government, which is a good thing.

Remain wins. The people have a fair chance to vote and a decent majority agree.

Remain wins. Some old people die off and take their racism with them.

Remain wins.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:
Potentially the Scottish Parliament I could veto Brexit by withholding their consent to amend the 1998 Scotland act which binds the SP to act within EU law......

Actually they would be tempting to veto something that is legal under EU law by attempting to claim EU law against it. Not surprised the SNP would try a stunt like that, but its not workable.

The best place to scupper Brexit itself is in the House of Commons.
The referendum is advisory, it still needs and Act of Parliament to repeal the 1973 act which allowed the UK to enter the EEC.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

Of course Westminster could, and indeed will, simply force through the necessary legal changes but that would basically guarantee Scottish independence.....

Why would a parliament with about 80% in favour of remain want to do that, when the excuse not to sits in front of them.

Scuppering it in Parliament will just result in a government that will implement the deal being elected next time. It's not going to work.

 Orlanth wrote:
but its not workable.

Well

Sir David Edward KCMG, QC, PC, FRSE, a former Judge
of the Court of Justice of the European Union and Professor Emeritus at
the School of Law, University of Edinburgh

seems to think that it is real enough to specifically mention it in a report to the house of lords. Besides its not EU law that would potentially empower the Scottish Parliament, its UK law, specifically the 1998 Scotland act.

 Orlanth wrote:
Why would a parliament with about 80% in favour of remain want to do that, when the excuse not to sits in front of them.

?

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
Why would a parliament with about 80% in favour of remain want to do that, when the excuse not to sits in front of them.

?

The vast majority of MP's wanted to Remain. The ongoing petition for a 2nd referendum, now at 2.3 million signs, is their excuse to delay proceedings and try again. Because "Democracy".

 Da Boss wrote:
Scuppering it in Parliament will just result in a government that will implement the deal being elected next time. It's not going to work.

I seriously doubt that.

I think the SNP plans with the EU may have hit a stumbling block already.

http://internal.uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKKCN0ZB0LA

 Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:
I think the SNP plans with the EU may have hit a stumbling block already.

http://internal.uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKKCN0ZB0LA

How is that a stumbling block? Its a simple statement of (current) fact.

 Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:
I think the SNP plans with the EU may have hit a stumbling block already.

http://internal.uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKKCN0ZB0LA

That's OK, they'll just hold a ref and be no longer constitutionally part of the UK.

I'd like to know what the justification here from Brexiters for dragging Scotland out of the EU against it's will is, seeing as the country voted to remain. I thought you guys were all for democracy and so on?

Seems like this is the opposite of your usual rhetoric. I've noted this disconnect before, obviously, but it's especially glaring now.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

But that's all silly anyway as there is no way that the UK will get a trade deal that doesn't include free movement of EU citizens and the right to work in the UK.

Anyone coming into the EU from outside needs to present official identity papers (i.e a passport) at border crossings. Unless the UK joins Schengen (hah!) then there will have to be a hard border.

I think a better solution would be to have N.Ireland join the schengen zone instead, and therefore there'll be a hard border between N.Ireland and the rest of the UK.

And yes that will be a huge boost for the Irish Republican cause. I'm ok with that, I think one day Ireland should be reunited.

And thankfully you have absolutely no say in that.

r_squared: You might be right, but failing to implement this would create a weeping sore on British politics. The Leave voters would be incredibly aggrieved and they would no doubt express this grievance through their votes. I doubt you'd be on to anything resembling a stable government at that point.

But I concede, they might be able to do it. I think it would be pretty poor showing from them, and I say that as someone who is pretty ambivalent on the UK remaining in the EU. The right thing to do is to accept the democratic mandate of the referendum.

If I was in your position I might feel the same though. I'm really sorry that it happened - I would be absolutely gutted if Ireland left the EU.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Well, they are already opening talks with the EU so they will probably have a deal in place when they call the referendum.

Which is exactly what should happen in the future, I think. After we have got these new deals negotiated but before we actually invoke article 50 to leave they should be released to the public, along with our current deals as part of the EU. Public can weigh up whether the new deal is better or worse and by how much and then vote in a final referendum. Give them hard facts to work with, instead of wishy-washy hand waving.

Yep. New deal, new vote.

Remain wins. The people are now in line with the views of their government, which is a good thing.

Remain wins. The people have a fair chance to vote and a decent majority agree.

Remain wins. Some old people die off and take their racism with them.

Remain wins.

People had a fair chance to vote - its done.

And if remain does not win - do you keep voting still or do you think only a specific section of the population should get what they want?

Who is going to decide who are these select people that get to judge the fate of a nation ? You? Is it only people who will vote remain? Only people under a certain age perhaps?.

This is exactly why alot of people got very angry before the vote and why some of them voted leave - they were told they were being ignored, defrancised etc

 Knockagh wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

But that's all silly anyway as there is no way that the UK will get a trade deal that doesn't include free movement of EU citizens and the right to work in the UK.

Anyone coming into the EU from outside needs to present official identity papers (i.e a passport) at border crossings. Unless the UK joins Schengen (hah!) then there will have to be a hard border.

I think a better solution would be to have N.Ireland join the schengen zone instead, and therefore there'll be a hard border between N.Ireland and the rest of the UK.

And yes that will be a huge boost for the Irish Republican cause. I'm ok with that, I think one day Ireland should be reunited.

And thankfully you have absolutely no say in that.

Also, ROI is not in Schengen.

I don't think the republican cause needs a boost. I think the fragile but peaceful status quo in Northern Ireland needs to be protected and sheltered and time needs to carry on. As long as everyone in the population is being treated fairly and there is no great impediment along the Border, I see no reason to push for a United Ireland.

But brexit has stirred things up. I hope it all stays quiet.

There is no justification, it would be hubris of the highest order for Westminster to deny Scotland the chance of independence. If the SNP act quickly enough, they could negotiate continued membership for Scotland once England, Wales and NI leave.

I don't think it will be easy as some think.. the pro Unionist groups are already rallying on facebook and 1million Scots did vote leave.. 62% said remain not 90%

That's a fair point. Still, 62% is a fairly strong margin for a referendum.

 Da Boss wrote:

 Knockagh wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

But that's all silly anyway as there is no way that the UK will get a trade deal that doesn't include free movement of EU citizens and the right to work in the UK.

Anyone coming into the EU from outside needs to present official identity papers (i.e a passport) at border crossings. Unless the UK joins Schengen (hah!) then there will have to be a hard border.

I think a better solution would be to have N.Ireland join the schengen zone instead, and therefore there'll be a hard border between N.Ireland and the rest of the UK.

And yes that will be a huge boost for the Irish Republican cause. I'm ok with that, I think one day Ireland should be reunited.

And thankfully you have absolutely no say in that.

Also, ROI is not in Schengen.

I don't think the republican cause needs a boost. I think the fragile but peaceful status quo in Northern Ireland needs to be protected and sheltered and time needs to carry on. As long as everyone in the population is being treated fairly and there is no great impediment along the Border, I see no reason to push for a United Ireland.

But brexit has stirred things up. I hope it all stays quiet.

Things should stay fairly stable. Republican groups still using violence have failed to gain any significant degree of support and they have limited access to arms. The agreement reached enshrined the right of the people of Northern Ireland to decide their own future and given recent election results the republican and Irish nationalist vote is on the decline. The weapons that the IRA did hold onto that they didn't decommission are now 20 odd years old and probably not in that great condition. We know they have continued to buy handguns from the states but not in significant numbers. Anyway there are so many agents planted in Sinn Fein now they can't move a finger.

The Scottish issue is troubling for me. I would hate for Scotland to be dragged out of the EU against its will. That's not right. But I don't want to break up the UK either. So I'm stuck.

And, I was going to raise another point but my brother won't shut the hell up (he's interrupted me 17 times in the last half hour) and now I've forgotten what I was going to say.

 Da Boss wrote:
That's a fair point. Still, 62% is a fairly strong margin for a referendum.

Aye agreed, its likely, I can see it happening within 2yrs.. although I was referring to the idea they would auto leave on a second ref, I am still convinced Scotland breaking away is no more clear cut than it was 2yrs ago.

The issue I see the SNP having, is if they call it and fail again.. well, it would bury the concept for a very long time.

Knockagh: There is the Unionist paramilitary side to things too - and they are most likely to be annoyed at the prospect of a vote for a united Ireland as McGuinness so stupidly suggested. But I hope you are right and things will stay calm. The main issue was the suppression of civil rights for catholics and misgovernance, and that is no longer an issue. There's no reason for citizens of Northern Ireland who are being treated fairly and given equal opportunity to make trouble (or to want to join the Republic, where they won't have an NHS!)

I'm actually really stuck on my opinion the Scotland thing myself.

On the one hand, it is a really big change and a really big deal. And the Scottish vote to stay wasn't exactly insignificant.

On the other hand, it's so recent that GW haven't even released a new edition of 40k in that time yet.

I do think it... wasn't constructive... for Sturgeon to immediately make the threat. That helped no-one.

The wisest thing would be to wait for the next election cycle, see what the lay of the land is with how the negotiations going and then go. "Ok, so guys, we don't think this thing is gonna be cool with Scotland, lets ask them and see what they think of it."

I mean, hopefully that sort of thing will still happen but a little more rationality and a few cooler heads could have done.

Don't know if anyone saw but a senior Labour MP, David Lammy (Tottenham) wants a commons vote to overturn the EU referendum result. Possible political suicide there lol.

http://news.sky.com/story/1717556/labour-mp-urges-commons-vote-to-block-brexit

Or Westminster turns its back on the voted majority of the UK, and decides to do whatever the SNP wants...

Pfft.

Unless his constituency voted for Remain, and then it's probably quite a canny move.