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It's sad too as that rule seems quite clear in the BRB. But I guess that does not matter.....

 Fishboy wrote:
No I am not Alan (I know of him and he is a far superior player than I am).

I know you are not blackmoor is, remember I am Aizen lol!

I need to stop but its so funny to me atleast.

I am glad it stayed at 1850!

Conspiracy theories. Demands for super majorities. Demands for transparency.

I feel like I blacked out and awoke in a world where the thing that I do to avoid the real world has turned into the same, every day crap.

It doesn't make sense to me because people fail to see that any individual ruling in the ITC is irrelevant because its key function remains intact. Two players who don't know each other can set up a game and play while having minimal conversation about the rules and their interpretations.

But I'm fairly certain that it's just a nightmare because all of a sudden people think that GW writes clear rules and the clear ones are not dumb.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Regardless of where the Ghostkeel and other rulings go, ITC should really do decisions based on super majority, simple majority are grounds for revoting or playtesting as it is and if it's still deemed broken or unfun, put it to the vote where it should have a super majority to be nerfed IMO.

How do you do that though? I get that for balance changes this is possible (and a good idea, I think) but for rules clarifications (which were badly needed in the case of coordinate fire for example) there is no "default" to fall back on if a vote fails to garner a super majority. You can't wait. That is why the hunter contingent was put up for vote so soon after the book came out in the first place - the BAO was coming up and they NEEDED to establish a ruling, but decided to do so by popular vote instead of making a unilateral decision.

I think if that was the case the TO, being that it is his/her tournament would have to enforce a ruling/errata/FAQ for the tournament and then bring it to vote once the tournament is over.

 luke1705 wrote:
You can't wait. That is why the hunter contingent was put up for vote so soon after the book came out in the first place - the BAO was coming up and they NEEDED to establish a ruling, but decided to do so by popular vote instead of making a unilateral decision.

Let me help FLG out, say alot of the recent rule changes and polls were rushed because of LVO and re-vote on them being more detail oriented questions without their bias.

 DarkLink wrote:
I'm not sure if it's more or less funny that Reece and Frankie have legitimately recieved actual death threats from tau players over this. Either way, that's pathetic.

Who ever threatend someone over a game, an actual life threat is stupid and if I was Reecius or Frank I would call the cops. They are alot nicer than me dont deserve that type of hate for making mistakes when they are trying to make the game better they are not going to get everything right.

THE THREAT ME THE OFF!

 Sidstyler wrote:
Constant, targeted nerfs at the Tau codex? Everyone's fine with it. Good for the game. Tau players are just WAAC whiners who don't want their win buttons taken away.

Taking a moment to target another overpowered army and reign them in a bit, an army that we actually have evidence of being too fething strong? Nooo, that opens a whole can of worms and takes away from that army's "unique flavor"! Leave them alone!

If I had to rank them in order of severity I'd say taking 45 warp spiders is several orders of magnitude worse than the issue with ghostkeels holophoton countermeasures. Why wasn't that on the fething poll?

As an Ork player, I'm starting to agree with the Tau players. Not so much about the Tau nerfs, but the lack of Eldar nerfs is really starting to annoy me. Only because such a large percentage of the players are Eldar, no Eldar nerfs get passed. This is bogus.

We need weighted voting, and probably just among actual tournament players. The questions should be submitted to entrants of ITC events, and the primary faction of each voter is logged and weighted. If there are only a few SOB or BA players, their votes count more.

It is great that they are including the community but voting in this way is a bad way to make rules and take the effort to make these FAQ's.
But there are a few issues with it.
.

1. The whole "Nef rock paper is fine " effect.

2. There is noting to prevent uneducated voters from voting.
There are some tournaments in here (on the other side of the wordl :\ ) that use their "faq". So I voted .I have totally no opinion on 1/5th of the questions asked. There is no way to skipp those questions and I have 0 interest into really dig into the issue so I went with my gut feeling. Possible hurting other players army in the process and I am sure that I am not the only one who does this.

3 They present it as a FAQ giving the idea that these are actual good rule interpretations while in reality they also incorporate the result of uneducated community gut feeling, rebalancing and selfish voting.

I might add that the alternative, make your own FAQ's and ignore the public might be worse . Since you will be the one who is the bad guy if the community doesn't like your rulings. I would not want to be the ITC : P

 JimOnMars wrote:
We need weighted voting, and probably just among actual tournament players. The questions should be submitted to entrants of ITC events, and the primary faction of each voter is logged and weighted. If there are only a few SOB or BA players, their votes count more.

Someone mentions this once in a while in these threads and I will repeat it, to address your frustration, JimOnMars:
Except for LVO and BAO, any other event you go to, call them in advance, voice your opinions that some of the ITC rulings aren't fun, and are they willing to mitigate or change any of the rulings? Call your buddies and work out a pleasant, but vocal community that helps make your events fun for you.

For instance, my FLGameStore, Game Empire Pasadena has the harsher Crunch! interpretation for Tank Shock. It has not 'broke' or really impacted our meta. We like it.

Except for BAO and LVO, these rulings are simply there to be used or not. Support your local scene RTT & GTs, get chummy with the TOs and if something isn't cool to your crew, change it.

"Waagh waaagh, the ITC is evil"

Regardless the current system works and the game is better because of the ITC. There was nothing wrong with any of the ITC changes so far. Some may claim the hunter continent change was heavy handed however even the moderate interpretation is still extremely strong. So I stand by statement nothing the ITC has ever change was bad for the game and only makes the game better.

Did the full results get posted? Im just curious if the combined choices for 1500 and 1650 pt games were higher than the 1850 total.

 Iechine wrote:
Did the full results get posted? Im just curious if the combined choices for 1500 and 1650 pt games were higher than the 1850 total.

Won't lend itself to that kind of analysis. It was a two part question. One: do you want to drop points or stay at 1850? Two: if we drop, 1500 or 1650?

gungo wrote:
"Waagh waaagh, the ITC is evil"

Regardless the current system works and the game is better because of the ITC. There was nothing wrong with any of the ITC changes so far. Some may claim the hunter continent change was heavy handed however even the moderate interpretation is still extremely strong. So I stand by statement nothing the ITC has ever change was bad for the game and only makes the game better.

Yet invisible Dark Thunder Scars exists and just got a boost at first turn charge that allows no reaction or interaction from your opponent. That is about 5 stackable USRs that can render and envelope an entire deployment zone. And yet the boogie man is HC.

How is the Solar staff still creating snap shots while the entire army of scarabs daisy chains itself so one member can be inside the VSG so the unit that is 24 inches away can still claim its benefit? Yet HC is the boogie man.

Screamers can now fly all over the board and claim objectives they are not even on. And YES, HC is the boogie man.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
...No the ITC and FLG is not evil!

No, not evil. But their process and tendencies have become questionable.

Questionable because the game is Better or because the ITC doesn't allow your overpowered formation benefit to be played how you want it?

And nothing the person above you mentioned did anything of worth in the ITC if at least he complained about warp spiders he would of had an augment to stand on but he complained about junk like screamers and thunder stars which didn't do much better Tau.

Overall FGL is doing a great job. They bit off a little more than they could chew wanting to roll back the points to 1500. That's too big a change.

Gungo I think you need to see Jugheads post before you start showing your back side in a forum. The game is not better with the recent ITC rulings....it is lopsided.
Are they nerfing the Eldar power builds...no..not one of them
Are they nerfing the space marine power combos....no
Are they nerfing invisibility....no
Did they nerf super friends....no
Did they nerf gladius....no
Did they nerf war conclave....no
Will they nerf the first turn 42" charge wulfen builds....doubtful but we shall see.

Have they nerfed almost every new formation or unit in Tau and in record time...yes.

So yeah...the game is better if you play eldar or imperial. If you get options that suddenly make you competitive with those builds then no....the game is not better.


Edited to ask...which formation am I running exactly that you think is over powered? Would it be my bugs which I don't run a formation in or is it my overpowered Coven list that again has no formations?

Edited again because I just saw your post. Jugheads is dead on with the super marine combos that share all the rules. His reference to the screamers I believe is concerning the new Demon formations that continue to hold objectives even when they are not on the objectives.

um... ITC did nerf invisibility. Like, pretty well. Your other points I agree with, though honestly I have no idea how to nerf the Eldar stuff effectively without just outright banning the WK, since they already limited it to 1 SH, and made Spiders only able to jump once a turn. I personally think a 2-detachment limit would work, as then with their rule that you can only duplicate a formation once eldar would have a max of 6 Spider squads, but that might not be enough...

 Fishboy wrote:
Gungo I think you need to see Jugheads post before you start showing your back side in a forum. The game is not better with the recent ITC rulings....it is lopsided.
Are they nerfing the Eldar power builds...no..not one of them
Are they nerfing the space marine power combos....no
Are they nerfing invisibility....no
Did they nerf super friends....no
Did they nerf gladius....no
Did they nerf war conclave....no
Will they nerf the first turn 42" charge wulfen builds....doubtful but we shall see.

So yeah...the game is better if you play eldar or imperial. If you get options that suddenly make you competitive with those builds then no....the game is not better.


Edited to ask...which formation am I running exactly that you think is over powered?

Invisibility is nerfed. You treat those units as being hit with BS1. That allows for templates to hit them. Additionally you hit the unit on 5s in close combat. So that was an actual rules changes that people are still complaining about since D and stomps are supposed to take care of it.

As pointed out above, warp spiders are nerfed. So is the number of WKs. Storm Surges come as more than one GMC, that's unique to Tau. The corsairs will also be nerfed most likely after this vote.

The issue with the Tau rules is that GW vomited a great amount of them on us at once and they were all sloppy. Since there were multiple interpretations, the ITC allowed us to vote and one particular interpretation was chosen. You might disagree with how all the Tau decisions have been made, but the ultimate fault lies with GW on this one.

The rest of the items you list are unambiguous. There's no question how the War Convocation plays. There's no question how Gladius works. The only question about the Wulfen, is if other ICs benefit from the Wulfen table. All these rules stink, but none of them are unclear.

 Fishboy wrote:
Gungo I think you need to see Jugheads post before you start showing your back side in a forum. The game is not better with the recent ITC rulings....it is lopsided.
Are they nerfing the Eldar power builds...no..not one of them
Are they nerfing the space marine power combos....no
Are they nerfing invisibility....no
Did they nerf super friends....no
Did they nerf gladius....no
Did they nerf war conclave....no
Will they nerf the first turn 42" charge wulfen builds....doubtful but we shall see.

Have they nerfed almost every new formation or unit in Tau and in record time...yes.

So yeah...the game is better if you play eldar or imperial. If you get options that suddenly make you competitive with those builds then no....the game is not better.


Edited to ask...which formation am I running exactly that you think is over powered? Would it be my bugs which I don't run a formation in or is it my overpowered Coven list that again has no formations?

Edited again because I just saw your post. Jugheads is dead on with the super marine combos that share all the rules. His reference to the screamers I believe is concerning the new Demon formations that continue to hold objectives even when they are not on the objectives.

Again waagh str d was nerfed for eldar, warp spiders were nerfed, toe in cover basically only nerfs wraithknights which is also the only lord of war nerfed because you can't spam it. Corsairs were nerfed.
Grav spam is nerfed by the void shield ruling
Invisibility and 2+ save rerollable is nerfed which has nothing To do with tau.
Most super friends can't share like the ics and skyhammer which don't effect tau and will effect Wulfen
But waagh tau Amirite?
Stop crying cause tau has nerfs that benefit the entire game and not ur army.
Just because you ognore the nerfs that don't effect you don't mean they dont exist.

With few exceptions, they don't put things up for vote that are clear RAW and attempt balance changes. When something crazy appears, sometimes they do if they get a million emails from people requesting that it be considered because it is so OP. (See Eldar scatbikes, which actually were put up for a vote. And the community decided to keep it as is - not FLG)

The idea that the nail that sticks out the most should be hammered back into place is a completely flawed one. If you just constantly nerf all the power builds, then you're left with nothing. Ideally you could say that they should just be nerfed until everything is balanced, but that's impossible to do in a practical setting. Works great in theory until you have nothing that resembles a 40k codex because literally everything is different in some way. Good luck keeping up with that

I do honestly think a 2 detachment limit would fix both the Spider problem (because with the one copy formation rule you max out at two hosts worth of spiders instead of two hosts and a CAD) as well as super friends (Two detachments means only two sources to cheese with.) But I may be totally wrong to be honest...

Yes because the STR D only affected Eldar....wrong there
Toe in cover only affected Eldar.....wrong again
Exactly how is Invisability nerfed...apparently I missed that one. I would love to get Invisability every turn in my Tau army.
How is grav spam nerfed due to void Shield? You have to get within 12" now? Not sure I understand your issue there since most grav spam is centered around fast moving bikes or drop pods. Maybe you are just doing it wrong.
The intermixed marine armies have soooo many options to add a snip here, throw in some white scars into their ultra marines for wargear, then stir some other special character rule that they can make a combo with wargear from 5 or 6 difference codex and get any result they want. Better yet ally with another imperial codex to get whatever else you want. What the crud do you think is a nerf there?!?! There are battle reports on Dakka where ITC format is used by heavy hitting ITC players using 1200 point super duper friend units so again I think you are off there.

I can't figure out the last part of your post. Please either respond when you are not drunk or when you decide English is your first language.

Grav spam is nerfed because grav doesn't work on voidshields period. Invisibility is directly nerfed by making it bs1\5s to hit in combat instead of always snap firing and hitting on 6s. ITC limits the special rule sharing through formations, meaning things like the skyhammer (and most likely the Wulfen Rules) do not stack with attached ICs. The D nerf was almost only eldar, as it only effected ranged D, was before the stormsurge got it, and all of the other ranged-d users from when it came out are not allowed in the ITC format (read: Warhound Titans) The toe is cover really only effects eldar, although it does minorly effect tau now, because it lets you pretect a WK without needing to give up the double D cannons for the invuln. The Stormsurge gets a fairly cheap piece of wargear that gives it an invuln, so it matters a lot less.

 Swampmist wrote:
I do honestly think a 2 detachment limit would fix both the Spider problem (because with the one copy formation rule you max out at two hosts worth of spiders instead of two hosts and a CAD) as well as super friends (Two detachments means only two sources to cheese with.) But I may be totally wrong to be honest...

I'm also a fan of the 2 detachment limit, but it doesn't help spider spam

In the corsairs book, you can take 3 spider squads as the core instead of guardians. That's part of the war host detachment. The auxiliary formation (3 spider squads as part of an aspect host) is part of the same formation detachment, so it's 1 source.

Then you take a CAD with 3 more squads.

So only 3 squads are part of the aspect host rather than the 6 that the LVO winner had, but it's still 9 squads of warp spiders.

 luke1705 wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
I do honestly think a 2 detachment limit would fix both the Spider problem (because with the one copy formation rule you max out at two hosts worth of spiders instead of two hosts and a CAD) as well as super friends (Two detachments means only two sources to cheese with.) But I may be totally wrong to be honest...

I'm also a fan of the 2 detachment limit, but it doesn't help spider spam

In the corsairs book, you can take 3 spider squads as the core instead of guardians. That's part of the war host detachment. The auxiliary formation (3 spider squads as part of an aspect host) is part of the same formation detachment, so it's 1 source.

Then you take a CAD with 3 more squads.

So only 3 squads are part of the aspect host rather than the 6 that the LVO winner had, but it's still 9 squads of warp spiders.

Yup, that'd do it . Didn't know about that one, my thought was to limit the Double Aspect Host+ Cad dealie you can take, but really it only limits it because of points... Welp, back to the drawing board on that issue I guess

 Fishboy wrote:
Yes because the STR D only affected Eldar....wrong there
Toe in cover only affected Eldar.....wrong again
Exactly how is Invisability nerfed...apparently I missed that one. I would love to get Invisability every turn in my Tau army.
How is grav spam nerfed due to void Shield? You have to get within 12" now? Not sure I understand your issue there since most grav spam is centered around fast moving bikes or drop pods. Maybe you are just doing it wrong.
The intermixed marine armies have soooo many options to add a snip here, throw in some white scars into their ultra marines for wargear, then stir some other special character rule that they can make a combo with wargear from 5 or 6 difference codex and get any result they want. Better yet ally with another imperial codex to get whatever else you want. What the crud do you think is a nerf there?!?! There are battle reports on Dakka where ITC format is used by heavy hitting ITC players using 1200 point super duper friend units so again I think you are off there.

I can't figure out the last part of your post. Please either respond when you are not drunk or when you decide English is your first language.

I'm sorry you can't conprehend the ITC rulings but obviously everyone else does. Please refer to the more informed posters above this post if you need to be more informed.

I am happy that people have their own thoughts about the ITC and I like how they are afraid to release the results is it sunday already!

 CKO wrote:
I am happy that people have their own thoughts about the ITC and I like how they are afraid to release the results is it sunday already!

...Afraid? No, they had a late order come in friday and are still trying to get caught up. We'll see the results soon.

 Swampmist wrote:

 CKO wrote:
I am happy that people have their own thoughts about the ITC and I like how they are afraid to release the results is it sunday already!

...Afraid? No, they had a late order come in friday and are still trying to get caught up. We'll see the results soon.

Or maybe they are having a harder time justifying in words the reason why they ask the questions in the way that they asked them which lead to their desired results.

It is ok I will play along with the masses and believe their story, but I am a wolf in sheep clothing and they know it but a little fear is a good thing it makes you do the right thing.