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Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





RoperPG wrote:
Longstrider wrote:
I don't really know if it's possible to split the difference between hyper competitive meta-gaming and completely narrative playing-with-your-pals.

It is, as long as points remain the optional rules.
it was always a option to bring what ever you want and ignore all the rules for a fair game and put what ever you wanted on the board. But now if you want to play .... You kinda need to bring some models, lay some down and showcase your models til someone excepts if no one does go home.
Or if someone does then comes the is it fair or not talk.

I need to go to work every day.
Millions of people on welfare depend on me. 
   
Made in gb
Tough Treekin




OgreChubbs wrote:
RoperPG wrote:
Longstrider wrote:
I don't really know if it's possible to split the difference between hyper competitive meta-gaming and completely narrative playing-with-your-pals.

It is, as long as points remain the optional rules.
it was always a option to bring what ever you want and ignore all the rules for a fair game and put what ever you wanted on the board. But now if you want to play .... You kinda need to bring some models, lay some down and showcase your models til someone excepts if no one does go home.
Or if someone does then comes the is it fair or not talk.

Nuh-uh. As has been pointed out ad nauseum, the default mode for the game is what people expect to play. You make points the default, then playing the game the way GW appear to intend disappears.
Make the points rules optional, which it will be. Because this isn't GW introducing a points system full-stop, it's GW introducing a comp system for events/campaigns.
Looking at the various iterations of the WW event packs, I think it's far more likely the comp will be along those lines - nods at keywords, model and wound count with underdog bonuses in game.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Perhaps GW could issue a massive spreadsheet of all the units in the war scrolls, with points values, and option sheets for scenarios, with points values.
That just doesn't seem GW's style at all though. It'll be a product, a tangible thing. Which again makes me think we're more likely to be looking at a comp mechanic rather than the minutiae of points values.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The other option that I can see, is for GW to issue special scenario packs for tournaments and competition use, that would have specified army setups. This obviously removes the spontaneity of using whatever troops you like, but at least it doesn't make any points values available.

I think this may be closer to the truth of it.


   
Made in us
Clousseau




I know at least where I am, optional or not, whatever rules GW pushes out for competitions and events are going to become the community default standard for any games period.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

From Atia's post in News & Rumors:

 Atia wrote:
I'll just leave this here ...


'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




RoperPG wrote:

Nuh-uh. As has been pointed out ad nauseum, the default mode for the game is what people expect to play. You make points the default, then playing the game the way GW appear to intend disappears.


That's basically the long and short of it. Games are ALWAYS an option (barring some sort of coercive behaviour), so saying it's optional to use one of the fan-made points in AoS now, or that it's an option not to play with points in 40k is true, but it's not particulary useful. I hope people can find themselves a way to play and some like-minded folks to play the ways they want to play, but that's far easier said than done.

It's too bad though - I've started to come around on the AoS fluff (though I maintain it was terribly dull to start with and still runs into the equivalent of bolter porn too often) and the game mechanics are fine for a fast playing light miniatures game (barring some quirks I really dislike, constantly being able to shoot being one). But I really don't want to extend an hour-long game to an hour+15 minutes when I've only got 2-3 hours on a given evening to play something, so PUGs are difficult to organise.
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

The thing is, from GW's point of view, the fact that there is so much pressure from customers and prospective customers for a points system, must be pushing them to do something. If GW got the idea they could double sales by releasing a points system, there would be one on sale the next month.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM





 Ghaz wrote:
From Atia's post in News & Rumors:

 Atia wrote:
I'll just leave this here ...



Well, that nips this in the bud. But with this and the Facebook page's endorsement of fan-made comps, I actually think we might see GW giving some of the community points systems and comps the "chapter approved" stamp and setting up organised play events that requires the organisers to choose one of the community comps as the balancing mechanic for the event.

Maybe this is even better.

Bye bye Dakkadakka, happy hobbying! I really enjoyed my time on here. Opinions were always my own :-) 
   
Made in ie
Terrifying Wraith






DEpending on how much fath you put in naftka, it says that the points system is just a way of separating people in tournament standings and not the system akin to 40k/real fantasy
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

It sounds like the way that rowing races are balanced. To compete, you have to join British Rowing and get a licence. When you win a race, you get points on your licence. There are races at various levels of points, and you can't enter a race below your level. This in theory classifies weaker and stronger rowers so that they compete with people of their own standard.

This system might actually be rather fun. GW could publish a web site listing all the registered players and their points.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM





Yes, that would be fun. I've played similar style leagues with a computer game before. But it would require a comp or structure on the armies too as at the moment you can turn up with anything ranging from a raft to a speedboat.

I am quite hopefully that GW will start to support the community comps. I would love to play with SDK in my local GW :-)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/19 13:24:20


Bye bye Dakkadakka, happy hobbying! I really enjoyed my time on here. Opinions were always my own :-) 
   
Made in us
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer





Leavenworth, KS

 Bottle wrote:


I am quite hopefully that GW will start to support the community comps. I would love to play with SDK in my local GW :-)


We are using Azyr comp at our GW and will be launching a campaign next month, that will last through August, using the Azyr Empires rules.

"Death is my meat, terror my wine." - Unknown Dark Eldar Archon 
   
Made in ca
Knight of the Inner Circle




Montreal, QC Canada

Yeah I figure if anything It will be not so much "Points" as it is Army Structure which, in my opinion, would be more useful to have when creating rule packs for a tournament or a campaign.

Commodus Leitdorf Paints all of the Things!!
The Breaking of the Averholme: An AoS Adventure
"We have clearly reached the point where only rampant and unchecked stabbing can save us." -Black Mage 
   
Made in us
Clousseau




I'm glad to hear that this is likely just points for standings and not putting points on the models. I would rather the community continue to use whatever fan comp they want to use, because I feel that our interests in maintaining balance are going to be vastly more than GWs, and I don't want to return to skewed points, must takes, and never takes any longer.
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





 Bottle wrote:
 Ghaz wrote:
From Atia's post in News & Rumors:

 Atia wrote:
I'll just leave this here ...



Well, that nips this in the bud. But with this and the Facebook page's endorsement of fan-made comps, I actually think we might see GW giving some of the community points systems and comps the "chapter approved" stamp and setting up organised play events that requires the organisers to choose one of the community comps as the balancing mechanic for the event.

Maybe this is even better.


Well I was briefly considering starting a lizardmen army when I heard they might be adding points. Until the game has far better balancing mechanics than it does right now, I'm not interested.
   
Made in au
Hacking Proxy Mk.1





Australia

 Toofast wrote:
 Bottle wrote:
 Ghaz wrote:
From Atia's post in News & Rumors:

 Atia wrote:
I'll just leave this here ...



Well, that nips this in the bud. But with this and the Facebook page's endorsement of fan-made comps, I actually think we might see GW giving some of the community points systems and comps the "chapter approved" stamp and setting up organised play events that requires the organisers to choose one of the community comps as the balancing mechanic for the event.

Maybe this is even better.


Well I was briefly considering starting a lizardmen army when I heard they might be adding points. Until the game has far better balancing mechanics than it does right now, I'm not interested.

Yep, I'm thinking exactly the same.

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
Made in bg
Dakka Veteran





 Toofast wrote:

Well I was briefly considering starting a lizardmen army when I heard they might be adding points. Until the game has far better balancing mechanics than it does right now, I'm not interested.

IMO you won't see a better balancing mechanism than the community developed ones. I don't think GW can make the same amount of games that the fan developers do - they just don't have that number of people in the studio.

Before I spit out the following heresy I'd like to say that I like the game and want to see it go forward... That said, at the current moment of time and state of the game, I don't think that it even deserves a good balancing mechanism - the core rules of the game IMO don't need and allow the benefits that a good point structure will bring. It is a good starter game, it allows and encourages players to collect various models from different ranges, it is playable by the younger members of the miniatures hobby and easy to learn for their busy dads. I personally think that the addition of points would defeat the purpose of the game as envisioned by GW.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




auticus wrote:
I'm glad to hear that this is likely just points for standings and not putting points on the models. I would rather the community continue to use whatever fan comp they want to use, because I feel that our interests in maintaining balance are going to be vastly more than GWs, and I don't want to return to skewed points, must takes, and never takes any longer.


I'm just curious if there's a way to make a points system that's close enough to let relaxed PUGs be fine without necessarily getting into must takes and never takes. I mean, the answer may just be no - at least for anything big or intricate. It works for things like some historicals where the range of statistics and special rules is fairly low, or the emphasis is on tactical decisions rather than stacking modifiers, and Kings of War (if you like it; if not tthat's fine) is perhaps more like Hail Caesar or Impetus that way.

I think in some ways Azyr comp aims at that, so that might be what I direct my efforts towards getting some people to try it with.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/20 03:37:50


 
   
Made in gb
Calculating Commissar




Frostgrave

How can you rank players at events when it's a nice guy competition and the goal seems to be to not win?

Doesn't that segregate the nicer players rather than forming tiers of ability?

It's a shame, something to help pick up games would really gain them some traction
   
Made in us
Clousseau




Longstrider wrote:
auticus wrote:
I'm glad to hear that this is likely just points for standings and not putting points on the models. I would rather the community continue to use whatever fan comp they want to use, because I feel that our interests in maintaining balance are going to be vastly more than GWs, and I don't want to return to skewed points, must takes, and never takes any longer.


I'm just curious if there's a way to make a points system that's close enough to let relaxed PUGs be fine without necessarily getting into must takes and never takes. I mean, the answer may just be no - at least for anything big or intricate. It works for things like some historicals where the range of statistics and special rules is fairly low, or the emphasis is on tactical decisions rather than stacking modifiers, and Kings of War (if you like it; if not tthat's fine) is perhaps more like Hail Caesar or Impetus that way.

I think in some ways Azyr comp aims at that, so that might be what I direct my efforts towards getting some people to try it with.


Azyr was written with Azyr Empires in mind but yes the idea behind Azyr Comp is to be able to play Pick up Games and now roughly how the two armies are stacked against each other. Its not a precision system and was never meant to be a precision system (because I strongly feel that when you are playing a multitude of scenarios like I enjoy doing, that precision points don't work and that leads us to playing the same scenario over and over again (pitched battle anyone?)

The only never takes I'm seeing is that no one takes chaffe anymore. Not because they aren't good enough but because no one wants to paint and buy that many models. Everyone has moved strongly toward the small elite armies. Thats just a local observation though so it is only good as that.
   
Made in gb
Tough Treekin




Herzlos wrote:
How can you rank players at events when it's a nice guy competition and the goal seems to be to not win?

Doesn't that segregate the nicer players rather than forming tiers of ability?

It's a shame, something to help pick up games would really gain them some traction

Judging by the most recent WW event pack, your ranking score is based on number of votes you got for being favourite opponent multiplied by number of in-game objectives you score.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




auticus wrote:

Azyr was written with Azyr Empires in mind but yes the idea behind Azyr Comp is to be able to play Pick up Games and now roughly how the two armies are stacked against each other. Its not a precision system and was never meant to be a precision system (because I strongly feel that when you are playing a multitude of scenarios like I enjoy doing, that precision points don't work and that leads us to playing the same scenario over and over again (pitched battle anyone?)

The only never takes I'm seeing is that no one takes chaffe anymore. Not because they aren't good enough but because no one wants to paint and buy that many models. Everyone has moved strongly toward the small elite armies. Thats just a local observation though so it is only good as that.


Yeah, the more I think about it the more Azyr seems to do what I want out of a balancing mechanism. Going to see if I can get a couple of friends to try it.
   
Made in us
Clousseau




Cool - if you're on facebook and want updates join our group at www.facebook.com/groups/AzyrEmpires

I post updates to that group and to the twitter account.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Longstrider wrote:
auticus wrote:

Azyr was written with Azyr Empires in mind but yes the idea behind Azyr Comp is to be able to play Pick up Games and now roughly how the two armies are stacked against each other. Its not a precision system and was never meant to be a precision system (because I strongly feel that when you are playing a multitude of scenarios like I enjoy doing, that precision points don't work and that leads us to playing the same scenario over and over again (pitched battle anyone?)

The only never takes I'm seeing is that no one takes chaffe anymore. Not because they aren't good enough but because no one wants to paint and buy that many models. Everyone has moved strongly toward the small elite armies. Thats just a local observation though so it is only good as that.


Yeah, the more I think about it the more Azyr seems to do what I want out of a balancing mechanism. Going to see if I can get a couple of friends to try it.
Most comps favor elite units, because they under-account for how many models get to attack. Often cheaper units get only a small fraction of the overall attacks available to the models, while elite units don't have this issue.
   
Made in us
Clousseau




I use a lot of reavers / marauders in my force just because I like how it looks on the table.

   
Made in ca
Executing Exarch






 thekingofkings wrote:
Honestly, I don't think points will save this game.


It will however save the fantasy tournament scene. GW claims 20% of its customers are gamers only, while 30% are collectors and gamers and 50% of them are just collectors. Making a game that alienates 20% of your target audience is stupid as hell and it shows, major fantasy events had attendance drop to upwards of 95%.

Even worse, when that rumour of AoS getting points popped up people were genuinely excited and GW fething laughs in their face publically.

Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
 
   
Made in gb
Tough Treekin




 Ravenous D wrote:
... and GW fething laughs in their face publically.

You appear to have a funny definition of "laughs"...
   
Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Ravenous D wrote:
 thekingofkings wrote:
Honestly, I don't think points will save this game.


It will however save the fantasy tournament scene. GW claims 20% of its customers are gamers only, while 30% are collectors and gamers and 50% of them are just collectors. Making a game that alienates 20% of your target audience is stupid as hell and it shows, major fantasy events had attendance drop to upwards of 95%.

Even worse, when that rumour of AoS getting points popped up people were genuinely excited and GW fething laughs in their face publically.


Which tournament scene? Speaking for Europe, WHFB is dead. KoW and 9th have taken over.

   
Made in ca
Executing Exarch






 Sigvatr wrote:
 Ravenous D wrote:
 thekingofkings wrote:
Honestly, I don't think points will save this game.


It will however save the fantasy tournament scene. GW claims 20% of its customers are gamers only, while 30% are collectors and gamers and 50% of them are just collectors. Making a game that alienates 20% of your target audience is stupid as hell and it shows, major fantasy events had attendance drop to upwards of 95%.

Even worse, when that rumour of AoS getting points popped up people were genuinely excited and GW fething laughs in their face publically.


Which tournament scene? Speaking for Europe, WHFB is dead. KoW and 9th have taken over.


That's what Im getting at, fantasy did have a decent tournament scene prior to AoS. Now that scene is near extinct or moved over to KoW.

Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
 
   
Made in de
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience






Nuremberg

If GW do make a points system, it had better be bloody good. A lot of the players they want to get back will have tried other games now, and they are not going be won back with lazy rules design. Once you leave the GW clubhouse, it's harder to think about going back in.

   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Official advice from GW is to use one of the fan-made balance schemes.

The rumoured tournament/league scheme from GW HQ is rumoured to be a points ranking of players, nothing to do with armies.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
 
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