Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Why is that evil though? They're still going to die either way, and having your chest exploded by a bolt shell, or cut own by a chainsaw is going to be just as bad. It's like calling bears evil.
IIRC she was pinned down after watching the rest of her team murdered and then gorged on by multiple kroot. the last thing she saw was kroot feasting on her heart*... at least most things would do the good grace of killing you first
* I did read this some time ago so please forgive me if I've mis-remembered it
Not really, they don't give a gak, because morality is a human construct. And kroot are, arguably much more "moral" than most humans. They are mercenaries, but extremely loyal, and don't just abondon their contracts if it all goes to gak.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
I looked at Kroot as Rastafari.
Noble, survivors but willing to fight if needed.
Taking-on DNA is not done lightly (as outlined by the shapers) and actively directs the future of their kind.
The various Kroot off-shoots can be pointed to as examples of "evolution" going to a dead-end (like Krootox).
I know they have spikes as "hair" but I cannot help looking at them like dreadlocks.
I dunno, I just picture them as very patient hunters and are willing to endure hardship with aplomb until the time comes.
Plus, I could just imagine them acting like there is no rush as the Tau are trying to convince them to stick to a coordinated timely attack.
"We will know when the time is right, how does a clock know better?"
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
Co'tor Shas wrote: Why is that evil though? They're still going to die either way, and having your chest exploded by a bolt shell, or cut own by a chainsaw is going to be just as bad. It's like calling bears evil.
IIRC she was pinned down after watching the rest of her team murdered and then gorged on by multiple kroot. the last thing she saw was kroot feasting on her heart*... at least most things would do the good grace of killing you first
There are some wasps which lay their eggs inside caterpillars so that the baby wasps hatch and eat the caterpillar from the inside out. So those caterpillars have very short lives which are very uncomfortable, but it still doesn't make the wasps evil. It makes them parasites.
The Kroot do not eat their victims for fun or to induce suffering but rather with a specific benefit in mind. Thus they are also just parasites
Except that parasites don't have the intention of killing hosts. That is a parasitoid. And Kroot are hunters, and need to eat creatures for the species to advance.
Irishpeacockz-Blackjack needs a pay raise for being the welcomer to the crusade
Palleus-Write a school essay about Kroot! Pride. Prejudice. And Cannibalsim.
Psienesis wrote: Incidentally, bears are evil incarnate. Rapists and murderers, the lot of them.
I prefer telling people about dolphins. The reaction is almost as priceless as telling a 4 year old that Santa doesn't exist.
Gods? There are no gods. Merely existences, obstacles to overcome.
"And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?" - ADB
I'm just saying the Imperial Guard deserve a tasty alternative to the regular crap they have to eat.
And that pertains to the kroot how?
Gods? There are no gods. Merely existences, obstacles to overcome.
"And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?" - ADB
I'm just saying the Imperial Guard deserve a tasty alternative to the regular crap they have to eat.
I'm pretty sure eating an animal that's a petri dish of various strains of DNA is a bad idea.
Do Kroot contain any human DNA in their mix? If they do prions would be a risk.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is looking like a troll thread with the original poster's increasingly nonsensical comments. Why are we still responding?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/03/03 14:41:45
One would expect that they do have some defensive mechanisms vs non optimal "meal parts" since this is such a important part of their evolutionary system.
If they don't then cancer might be a worse problem then prions since they actively import faulty dna. I would suspect Tasmanian devil cancer like effects.
Inactive, user. New profile might pop up in a while
I was referring to DorianGray's statement that the guard could eat the "Chicken" but you bring up another interesting point.
The regulators that control the division of cells are complicated processes that require multiple proteins and chemical signals. With the kroot mixing their DNA, I would not be surprised if these were disturbed. How much control do the shapers have over the development of the kroot? Do they just control what they eat or can they directly manipulate how the DNA is included?
I'm just saying the Imperial Guard deserve a tasty alternative to the regular crap they have to eat.
I'm pretty sure eating an animal that's a petri dish of various strains of DNA is a bad idea.
Do Kroot contain any human DNA in their mix? If they do prions would be a risk.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is looking like a troll thread with the original poster's increasingly nonsensical comments. Why are we still responding?
If they ate humans recently, probably. And considering how the guard in this case are fighting them, they probably did.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
The regulators that control the division of cells are complicated processes that require multiple proteins and chemical signals. With the kroot mixing their DNA, I would not be surprised if these were disturbed. How much control do the shapers have over the development of the kroot? Do they just control what they eat or can they directly manipulate how the DNA is included?
First thing I thought of was a similar system to the Bacterial DNA transformation due to uptake of external DNA. Fluff always points out that they only want to eat the most powerful/suited species. So this kinda makes sense. Specific Kroot cells might just be able to incorporate the DNA and spread it retrovirus like to all their other cells.
How the hell would you even transcribe alien DNA there is no reason to assume that the promoter region would even be recognized. lets assume that Xenology is wrong and somehow all life forms in the universe share the same global DNA machinery or that kroot have some amazing multifunctional cellular machinery.
But now what. I don't see any control mechanism for genes not expressed. And the fluff mentions lots of degenerated kroot species so this might not be that far fetched. Shapers might have some control but I doubt if this would be on the molecular scale it could perhaps only be on what the groups eats and plans to hunt for.
Inactive, user. New profile might pop up in a while
So, it would be OK for the Kroot to be rounded up and eaten like a domesticated Terran animal, and humans are still the good guys, but when the Kroot do it to advance their species in one of the only ways they can, they're immediately the greatest threat and pure evil.
Not to mention why someone would think a Kroot is appetizing to even look at, but that's a different can of worms. I mean, they release oils onto their skin as a waste product, for one, and apparently they can control what that oil does to an extent, so they could make themselves poisonous to eat, if one is insistent on it.
Irishpeacockz-Blackjack needs a pay raise for being the welcomer to the crusade
Palleus-Write a school essay about Kroot! Pride. Prejudice. And Cannibalsim.
Remember that scene from the second Silence Of The Lambs movie... Ugh... *shudders*
I had forgotten about that.... gave me the creeps, especially with the victim being so helpless. And now I'm thinking about it Back in a mo, gonna watch some cute pig videos so that I can accept them back into my life again.
I think you meant to say you're going to fry some bacon....
2BlackJack1 wrote: So, it would be OK for the Kroot to be rounded up and eaten like a domesticated Terran animal, and humans are still the good guys, but when the Kroot do it to advance their species in one of the only ways they can, they're immediately the greatest threat and pure evil.
Not to mention why someone would think a Kroot is appetizing to even look at, but that's a different can of worms. I mean, they release oils onto their skin as a waste product, for one, and apparently they can control what that oil does to an extent, so they could make themselves poisonous to eat, if one is insistent on it.
Somewhere, former IG colonel turned radical Ordo Xenos Inquisitor Sanders has learned how to safely prepare Kroot for his fried Kroot recipe with 11 secret herbs and spices. It took him a lifetime, but such a valuable weapon to bear against the xenos scum is definitely worth it! Also, it's delicious.
Seriously though, it's less about the eating and more about where the body came from. Did you kill it in self-defense? Or are you straight up slaughtering sentient beings like cattle? One can be argued for if it has a tangible benefit to you (whether it's because you're improving your gene pool, or just because you might starve otherwise), the other is inherently an evil act. It doesn't matter what species you are.
The "predator/prey" argument doesn't hold true here. because neither Kroot nor humans NEED to eat sentient beings to survive. They can eat non-intelligent animals and, in the humans case, plants.
And I doubt anyone would seriously insist that Kroot are "the greatest threat and pure evil." Clearly that's the Hrud.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/03/04 05:56:15
Not eating sentient beings isn't an inherently evil act. Evil is all just relative to your morals. Kroot will have a hugely different moral code; hell, different humans have vastly different moral codes. It's evil to us, sure, but it might be seen as respectful in Kroot culture or something.
the Signless wrote: I was referring to DorianGray's statement that the guard could eat the "Chicken" but you bring up another interesting point.
The regulators that control the division of cells are complicated processes that require multiple proteins and chemical signals. With the kroot mixing their DNA, I would not be surprised if these were disturbed. How much control do the shapers have over the development of the kroot? Do they just control what they eat or can they directly manipulate how the DNA is included?
You are putting more thought into this than GW has. They're game-designers, not biologists.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
the Signless wrote: I was referring to DorianGray's statement that the guard could eat the "Chicken" but you bring up another interesting point.
The regulators that control the division of cells are complicated processes that require multiple proteins and chemical signals. With the kroot mixing their DNA, I would not be surprised if these were disturbed. How much control do the shapers have over the development of the kroot? Do they just control what they eat or can they directly manipulate how the DNA is included?
You are putting more thought into this than GW has. They're game-designers, not biologists.
They're just as much game designers as they are biologists. IE: not at all
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
the Signless wrote: I was referring to DorianGray's statement that the guard could eat the "Chicken" but you bring up another interesting point.
The regulators that control the division of cells are complicated processes that require multiple proteins and chemical signals. With the kroot mixing their DNA, I would not be surprised if these were disturbed. How much control do the shapers have over the development of the kroot? Do they just control what they eat or can they directly manipulate how the DNA is included?
You are putting more thought into this than GW has. They're game-designers, not biologists.
They're just as much game designers as they are biologists. IE: not at all
Someone should sig this burn. XD
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Be honest did you just get a beating by some Kroot in a game with the Tau?
The Kroot, irrespective of their eating habits are too minor a group to have any impact on the galaxy.
Their eating habits are not indiscriminate as you suggest but very focussed in a drive towards evolution and betterment of their species. This is the driving factor for every living thing so if they are evil everything is.
The "predator/prey" argument doesn't hold true here. because neither Kroot nor humans NEED to eat sentient beings to survive. They can eat non-intelligent animals and, in the humans case, plants.
Actually, while Kroot probably don't always need to eat sentient beings to maintain their sentience (there's plenty of lore suggesting that kroot can hunt strong/fast/flying animals to generally increase/gain that trait), there's strong circumstantial evidence suggesting that Kroot MUST occasionally eat sentient beings to prevent sub-sentient animal dna overwriting existing sentience-providing DNA. Both Krootox and Kroothounds suggest that Kroot sentience can be eventually lost (and through unexplained mechanics, can be "locked" into a genetic template or at least prevented substantially from regaining a Carnivore-like capability for rapid genetic change).
It seems safe to assume that Kroot must occasionally shore up their sentience with sentient prey. It's possible that eating their dead might qualify for that, but I don't think its reasonable to assume that'll be enough in all cases - to prevent the loss of their race's sentience, some alien sentients might need to be forcefully invited to dinner.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
It seems to me that its more that if the Kroot go too far down a specialist path they can reach a genetic dead end, where they've replaced whatever special function of their DNA allows them to take on the DNA of other creatures. The ox and hounds weren't recent developments, they'd already been around a long time on their home planet. So they don't need to eat sentient beings to maintain sentience, if that were the case they never would have been sentient to begin with(unless there was a sentient race the kroot hunted to extinction? and eating them caused the bestial kroot to become sentient), but rather if they eat too much of the wrong thing they can lose their sentience.
Sort of like sentience requires a well rounded genetic diet. Eating too much of one thing eventually causes their own genetic material to become diluted and undesirable traits emerge. Whereas if you have a more varied diet the sentient DNA remains dominant as it is the most cohesive and only the specific desirable traits are likely to remain.
Though is it actually confirmed that hounds and ox are non-sentient? Or are we just assuming they aren't because they are bestial and can't use tools? For all we know they might be able to talk and hold conversation, mind of a normal kroot in a different body.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/09 05:33:39
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: It seems to me that its more that if the Kroot go too far down a specialist path they can reach a genetic dead end, where they've replaced whatever special function of their DNA allows them to take on the DNA of other creatures. The ox and hounds weren't recent developments, they'd already been around a long time on their home planet. So they don't need to eat sentient beings to maintain sentience, if that were the case they never would have been sentient to begin with(unless there was a sentient race the kroot hunted to extinction? and eating them caused the bestial kroot to become sentient), but rather if they eat too much of the wrong thing they can lose their sentience.
Possibly the case, though if memory serves, Kroot sentience is traced back by one source book to an early Ork landing on Pech (remnants of whose ships remain as "sacred artifacts"), which would provide exactly the sort of sentient race that could have granted an initially non-sentient Kroot the sentience to begin with. It isn't like Orks are in short supply, either - Orks hunted to "extinction" without setting the entire jungle world of Pech to the flames would probably result in a continual supply of Sentience- and humanoid-genes that would have helped Kroot change from their revered Kroothawk ancestors into the Kroot Carnivores we all know and love.
This is bolstered by the seemingly innate mechanical capability that would allow the Kroot to make their unique Warspheres and Hunting Rifles (pre-Tau upgrades), limited by an existing cultural/genetic influence that precludes technology except where needed. It seems at least conceivable that some fragments of Ork innate technological knowledge has been integrated into the Kroot's genetic makeup.
Sort of like sentience requires a well rounded genetic diet. Eating too much of one thing eventually causes their own genetic material to become diluted and undesirable traits emerge. Whereas if you have a more varied diet the sentient DNA remains dominant as it is the most cohesive and only the specific desirable traits are likely to remain.
I would think "sentient creature DNA" would be part of a well-rounded genetic diet that's capable of retaining a sentient-dominance in Kroot genetics, don't you think? A diet that didn't include any form of sentience seems like it would eventually integrate elements of non-sentient DNA. Presumably (and canonically) Shapers can help mitigate this on an instinctual level, but clearly they aren't perfect at it.
Though is it actually confirmed that hounds and ox are non-sentient? Or are we just assuming they aren't because they are bestial and can't use tools? For all we know they might be able to talk and hold conversation, mind of a normal kroot in a different body.
They minimally seem subservient and used in bestial/nonsentient roles. the codex refers to them as bestial, and krootox are stated to consider their Carnivore brethren to be "herdmates" suggesting at least lower levels of intelligence. From memory, Krootox are described as relatively dumb and animalistic, but I'd need to do more research.
Even though it may not be confirmed, I don't see much suggesting that Kroot Hounds and Krootox are consider on-par with Carnivore kindred or as more than beasts of burden/hunting companions. They may well retain some (but not all) of the Kroot Carnivore origin intelligence, but they're never described (to my knowledge) as interacting in any appreciable way.|
That's an interesting question, though, and has me wondering whether Krootox and Kroot Hounds are closer to Ratlings and Ogryns than Wolves and Grox... not a question I can answer easily.
~4100
~1660
Never forget your squigcakes 
