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And Daemonettes on the bottom :|

Those things are FAST and have tons of tricks. They are arguable the best daemon troops for some missions. I am out.

I would put Plague Zombies from Renegades and Heretics up there somewhere. They are 3 points a pop, +4 FnP fearless, no armor save. You can take them in blobs of 50. They are an amazing tarpit, and just a disgusting unit to throw at anything that isn't throwing out 20 S6 wounds a turn.

They have no shooting, are initiative 2, but their only purpose on the table is to run head first into anything and everything that you want locked in CC forever.

Not in the shooting phase,they won't

.
Then don't shoot but assault. Really how can force sword wielding psyker marines with set good powers be the worst troops possible in an edition with multi wound model spam. They might not be the best but they sure have their place. Just their guaranteed 2+ str power is worth the extra points.

Bharring wrote:
GSF would put Tacs near the top...

Without GSF, are you sure they are worse than everything between them and Scouts?

The range from where I put Tacs through Scouts are mostly fairly close, although CSM Tacs probably need to be dropped down a bit.

Should Harlies be moved up that much? They aren't terrible, but they do have limitations.

I'm not sure if CSM have the worst troop in the game, but I think they have the worst set of options. Cult troops can be outright bonkers terrible.

I added some Demon troops, but I'm not very sure about their placement.

Near the top? Are you daft? GSF makes them meh-level at best and only because they have a free transport...

People are far too generous with where they're putting Chaos Marines... Really? You honestly think they're better than Grey Knight TERMINATORS!?

The only things that actually worse off than basic Chaos Marines would be;
Gaunts of all flavours
Genesneakers
Wyches
Khorne Berserkers
Thousand Sons

That's it.

People seem to forget that a Chaos Marine is only 1pt less than his Loyalist counterpart, yet loses out on;
- And They Shall Know No Fairness
- Combat Squads
- Chapter Tactics

As well as having no access to Grav of any kind, no Heavy/Hand flamers, no Razorback and no Drop Pod.
Meanwhile, any additional special rules the Chaos Marine can access, has to be paid through the nose! So to give for example, +1Ld (Veterans of the Long War) & +1T (Mark of Nurgle), that same Chaos Marine now costs a whopping 17pts!

And the only squad upgrades of any use the Chaos Marine can take, are Plasma guns & Meltaguns... Heavy weapons as they stand, (the only 'useful' option being an Autocannon), are meaningless for our basic squad, as due to lacking Combat Squads, those heavies waste a crapload of firepower when they do shoot.


Chaos Marines actively makes your list worse, unlike Cultists who are dirt cheap, and through either Typhus (Zombies!!) or MoK, can be turned into a solid tarpit. Or else taking a Nurgle Lord, and cheaping out min/maxed Plaguemarines who not only get 2x Specials at just 5 strong, but also come with +1T & FnP, plus Poisoned close combat attacks.

Basic Chaos Marines suck hardcore, no matter what way you slice it! They are easily in the running as one of the game's top 5 worst Troop units, alongside the even more pitiful Berserkers & unplayable Thousand Sons.

 oldzoggy wrote:

Not in the shooting phase,they won't

.
Then don't shoot but assault. Really how can force sword wielding psyker marines with set good powers be the worst troops possible in an edition with multi wound model spam. They might not be the best but they sure have their place. Just their guaranteed 2+ str power is worth the extra points.

Well, the primary argument would be that against the lists with the most dangerous MCs, you won't live to assault them, and you'll be giving up more pts per model. Also, S4 can't wound WKs, so you are hoping they don't deny hammerhands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"- And They Shall Know No Fairness
- Combat Squads
- Chapter Tactics "

But these don't make tacs good. BA tacs have them, and they are still awful in practice. We've also got pods, (crapshoot) razorbacks (I've benched them), and heavy flamers (really? who cares?)
Grav guns on non-relentless models are really meh as well.

All Grey knight tactical marines will are without any upgrades at S6 ap3 force in assault. S4 base +2 and force of their powers. And ANY MODEL may change their weapon for an other melee weapon including a the equivalent of a force thunderhamer. On top of that they do have grenades that cause perils if you throw them at a unit containing a psyker.
I know of no troop model this suited to kill most monsters.

Half of the troops on this list aren't bad at all they are just no "all round win buttons" like most of you want them to be.

I know plenty. A grey knight is still a marine at the end of the day. Any thing that can kill a marine will do the trick and that's not hard.

Additionally Melee upgrades are lack luster this edition

If you want bad troops take a look at this.

Gretchin scavenger mob. 4 point grots. Same stats as normal grots (Ws2 Bs3 S2 T2 W1 I2 Ld5 sv- )except that they can do dmg to themselves to get defensive grenades.

4pts grots people have fun topping that.

 oldzoggy wrote:
All Grey knight tactical marines will are without any upgrades at S6 ap3 force in assault. S4 base +2 and force of their powers. And ANY MODEL may change their weapon for an other melee weapon including a the equivalent of a force thunderhamer. On top of that they do have grenades that cause perils if you throw them at a unit containing a psyker.
I know of no troop model this suited to kill most monsters.

Half of the troops on this list aren't bad at all they are just no "all round win buttons" like most of you want them to be.

Most are bad/terrible given the context of where 7th ed has gone with the game. Asking to not be autotabled by Tau/Eldar is not asking for an all around win button. Especially not when Eldar "troops" have more firepower than any heavy support choice in my codex.

Kroot aren't bad. They're fine.

Wow, those gretchin are bad.

I think you may have listed something worse than Wyches. Or at least close!

Yeah, Kroot have uses. But I'm not sure how far up they should be. Probably above PAGK, but probably not far up.

Khorne Berserkers certainly deserve a low rank. Much higher than TK though. Not sure where to put Plague Marines or Noise Marines, though.

 oldzoggy wrote:
All Grey knight tactical marines will are without any upgrades at S6 ap3 force in assault. S4 base +2 and force of their powers. And ANY MODEL may change their weapon for an other melee weapon including a the equivalent of a force thunderhamer. On top of that they do have grenades that cause perils if you throw them at a unit containing a psyker.
I know of no troop model this suited to kill most monsters.

Half of the troops on this list aren't bad at all they are just no "all round win buttons" like most of you want them to be.

You see, your trying to sell me a unit (PAGK) as an ASSAULT unit that costs 110 points minimum. But they die like a tactical marine. They suck.

A storm bolter gets me what? 1 extra shooting dice if the tacticals dropped dedicated into rapid fire range.

PAGK get 1 attack WS4, so assuming I get charged after I deepstrike like a good opponent should, each of my guys has less than a 50% chance of hitting. If they DO hit I'm not killing something as expensive as them. It's a lose lose.

Wait, wait. PAGK don't have a bolt pistol?

Martel732 wrote:
Wait, wait. PAGK don't have a bolt pistol?

No, they have Storm bolters, but can pay 3 or 5 points for an extra attack

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Wait, wait. PAGK don't have a bolt pistol?

No, they have Storm bolters, but can pay 3 or 5 points for an extra attack

So, their default is a single attack? Like a tac marine? Yucko.

You are missing a whole world of fun. I like noting as much as killing things with force swords. Poke you are dead is just so much fun : D

 oldzoggy wrote:
You are missing a whole world of fun. I like noting as much as killing things with force swords. Poke you are dead is just so much fun : D

Only if they were reasonably priced... Maybe if we gave them jet bikes and multilasers they would be better...

Sounds grim against Tyranids. Not too sure vs Tau or Eldar.

 oldzoggy wrote:
You are missing a whole world of fun. I like noting as much as killing things with force swords. Poke you are dead is just so much fun : D

Force won't come into play against most models. Additionally they are are still S4, have one attack and are very costly per model. Assault is meh this edition unless your a deathstar buffed by psychic powers or a GMC. Foot infantry are not going to cut it in a competitive game.

Sounds like foot infantry that desperately want to charge. Wont' be happening vs my BA!

Martel732 wrote:
Sounds like foot infantry that desperately want to charge. Wont' be happening vs my BA!

And after all these years... I never thought Martel would find a use for blood angels...

If PAGK had 2 attacks standard they MIGHT be taken over Termies... but Psycannon being Salvo means that's unlikely.

Bring back the Special Rule: True Grit!

CSM Tacticals high, nevermind that high? They should be near the very bottom, along with the Cultists. The only good thing about Cultists from a competitive POV is you can pay 50 points for a Troop choice to unlock Daemon Princes or Sorcerers in an Allied detachment.

Cultist are good at there job at least, be cheap, hold an objective in the backfield, and in a KDK army dying gets you more Blood points.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Sounds like foot infantry that desperately want to charge. Wont' be happening vs my BA!

And after all these years... I never thought Martel would find a use for blood angels...

BA have always been magnificent at running away.

I hate it if someone union wraps their artillery in fearless cultists

 Quickjager wrote:
If PAGK had 2 attacks standard they MIGHT be taken over Termies... but Psycannon being Salvo means that's unlikely.

Bring back the Special Rule: True Grit!

I concur. It'd make Grey Knights fairly dangerous once more in melee.

The Psycannon needs to lose Salvo though. That's a BIG reason the codex is partially monobuild.

I moved around a few.

I don't know where Demonettes or regular Gretchins go yet.

Lots to add.

Demonettes are real feast or famine. I honestly don't know how demons do on threat saturation, but if those things make it to assault, they can buzzsaw down a WK. Mass rending is one of the best things in 7th ed. Because it's one of the few things that GMCs don't ignore outright.