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Troupe and daemonettes that low? not a chaaance!

No way Firewarriors are better than Tacticals.

Deschenus Maximus wrote:
No way Firewarriors are better than Tacticals.

Squad v squad, probably not, but Tau have so much synergy that Firewarriors are a real threat, whereas I rarely see Tacticals as anything but something fun to charge into.

Bharring wrote:
Aren't SM better at getting to shoot before getting shot than DAs? Nothing says "I shoot first" quite like a drop pod. DAs can pay for a Serpent, but that'll cost about 4 pods and won't be as flexible (although it does bring a battle tank to the table).

DAs can hurt anything with a T, but can't pen anything with an AV. Even stock, Marines threaten light vehicles that get to close. And they can be kitted with AT.

list tailoring would make SM much better than DAs. If you could tailor, the only target DAs would win against would be MCs, with Tacs outperforming vs everything else. Without tailoring, the need to make a decision is what brings Tacs down to the DA level.

DA are better than Tac marines.
It's not just that they can hurt something of any toughness, it's that they hurt it as often as they do with multiple rending shots.
10 DA will throw out 20 dice that hit on 3s and rend on 6s. I've used 3 squads before to down a wraithknight. They shred most anything.
DA are also extremely fast, with battle focus and the warhost perk letting them move 12" per turn, and an effective 30" range on their weapon.
DA get some great perks, stubborn, counter attack, or BS2 overwatch. The exarch can be used to soak that thunder hammer strike.
Sure, they can't hurt vehicles, but that's why there are spiders and hawks.

Plus Bolters can only glance AV10 Vehicles. I'd trade that for the ability to put wounds on a WK or Riptide any day.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Plus Bolters can only glance AV10 Vehicles. I'd trade that for the ability to put wounds on a WK or Riptide any day.

They were talking about krak grenades, which are effective vs light armor -- and can work against a WK. Generally if your throwing krak on a WK ... well, lets just say things have gone sour.


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Experiment 626 wrote:
People are far too generous with where they're putting Chaos Marines... Really? You honestly think they're better than Grey Knight TERMINATORS!?

If you take an allied detachment with Fabious of 40 CSM, they can make for a decent group of 40 T4 3+ armor save fearless mobs. It won't win you the game, but can be very useful for squating on objectives and taking a while to shift while daemons do the work.

How hard? Well a scat bike does the following
(2/3 to hit) * (5/6 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * 4 attacks = .74 CSM killed per bike. If your opponent brought 30 of those bikes he could kill all 40 CSM in 2 turns...and then be chewed up by the rest of the daemon army...

That's the best use I've discovered for CSM troops. Other than that, they are rather sub-par.

Skitarii Rangers and Vanguard should be up there somewhere.

Not sure where to put them but would say on the upper end somewhere. Their gear and abilities make them rather good. They are not the greatest, but can give others a run for their money.

Deschenus Maximus wrote:
No way Firewarriors are better than Tacticals.

Maybe not in a vacuum, but in practice they are much better.

I'm perhaps getting my threads confused, but people talking about drop pods need to realize that they have steadily gotten worse since they changed everything in 5th.

Should put Krieg Grenadiers pretty low in that list, as well as Krieg Guardsmen, probably better than the Grenadiers, but not by much, and then lastly put Scions above the two, but not by much.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
People are far too generous with where they're putting Chaos Marines... Really? You honestly think they're better than Grey Knight TERMINATORS!?

If you take an allied detachment with Fabious of 40 CSM, they can make for a decent group of 40 T4 3+ armor save fearless mobs. It won't win you the game, but can be very useful for squating on objectives and taking a while to shift while daemons do the work.

How hard? Well a scat bike does the following
(2/3 to hit) * (5/6 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * 4 attacks = .74 CSM killed per bike. If your opponent brought 30 of those bikes he could kill all 40 CSM in 2 turns...and then be chewed up by the rest of the daemon army...

That's the best use I've discovered for CSM troops. Other than that, they are rather sub-par.

Considering your 700 points of Chaos Space Marines and Fabius Bile have likely killed nothing, how is this supposed to be an argument in their favor?

Tau Breachers were used in the top tau list of the LVO much to my surprise. I had written them off. Now I'm going to have to investigate their utility.

I would rank them perhaps at the level of the firewarriors for now if that is the case.

A I see its a ranking. So how would you rank Rocks Paper and Sissors ?

 Brennonjw wrote:
daemonettes are better then storm guardians by far.

Daemonettes are amazing I dunno why people think they are bad, they are better than fiends

Daemonettes are one of the best. They deepstrike and than bauble wrap stuff with a re-rollable fast run. Won me games.

 koooaei wrote:
Daemonettes are one of the best. They deepstrike and than bauble wrap stuff with a re-rollable fast run. Won me games.

I now literally pack over 6 units in the decurion it wins so many games!

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Cultist are good at there job at least, be cheap, hold an objective in the backfield, and in a KDK army dying gets you more Blood points.

I compared them to IGs in an earlier thread. They have the option of going 50 strong, with weapon options.

Cultists? Good at their job? With autoguns their cost is 10 points more for 10 (but beyond that they cost the same), but with way worse options and a worse save. Even when decked out for CC, the IG will take them down by first weakening them with lasgun fire before finishing them off in CC.

Though, I'll grant you they're excellent at dying.

Daemonettes are what genestealers wish they could be.

My apologies if I missed someone mention it, but you did not include Kataphron Breachers, Kataphron Destroyers, Skitarii Vanguard, and Skitarii Rangers.

Martel732 wrote:

Maybe not in a vacuum, but in practice they are much better.

You're going to have to elaborate, because I don't see it.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm perhaps getting my threads confused, but people talking about drop pods need to realize that they have steadily gotten worse since they changed everything in 5th.

Drop pods were arguably worse in 5th, when people could do a full null deployment and completely screw over your alpha strike.

I would put Guardsmen a lot lower on that list than they are. Sure, you can have large blobs of them but they die if a squirrel so much as farts in their direction and their firepower is only good en mass - something that is really tough to do when your opponent is wiping out handfuls a turn.
That and their force multipliers (CCS/PCS) are very squishy, require the Guardsmen to be within a very limited range and pass an order test to gain any benefit. And you usually have to hide them behind a tank or something or they vanish very quickly.

I'm seeing a lot of unexpected love for Daemonettes.

Where do you see them going?

Also, please post addresses to aid your friendly local inquisitor in stamping out heresy! (Bonus points if he's Spanish.)

Also, where would those of you who would downgrade Fire Warriors put them?

I have a lot more troops to place in the list, still, it seems...


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Oh, and Tacs naked threatening vehicles is more an area denial thing. If you end movement with most vehicles within 12" of a Tac squad you can't finish this turn, they can typically do mean things to that vehicle even naked.

It might not seem like much, but it can really force their hands.

Most other factions don't pose that kind of threat.

Bharring wrote:
I'm seeing a lot of unexpected love for Daemonettes.

Where do you see them going?

Also, please post addresses to aid your friendly local inquisitor in stamping out heresy! (Bonus points if he's Spanish.)

Also, where would those of you who would downgrade Fire Warriors put them?

I have a lot more troops to place in the list, still, it seems...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and Tacs naked threatening vehicles is more an area denial thing. If you end movement with most vehicles within 12" of a Tac squad you can't finish this turn, they can typically do mean things to that vehicle even naked.

It might not seem like much, but it can really force their hands.

Most other factions don't pose that kind of threat.

Now only if anyone cared about that. I've seen you talk about this before, but in real games, this rarely, if ever comes up. It's just more hand wringing trying to make krak grenades sound good.


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 master of ordinance wrote:
I would put Guardsmen a lot lower on that list than they are. Sure, you can have large blobs of them but they die if a squirrel so much as farts in their direction and their firepower is only good en mass - something that is really tough to do when your opponent is wiping out handfuls a turn.
That and their force multipliers (CCS/PCS) are very squishy, require the Guardsmen to be within a very limited range and pass an order test to gain any benefit. And you usually have to hide them behind a tank or something or they vanish very quickly.

I know you would, but guardsmen are more durable than meqs against the most broken gun in the game. And divination helps them so much more than meqs. This isn't a head to head list. This is an overall functionality list as far as I can tell.


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Deschenus Maximus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Maybe not in a vacuum, but in practice they are much better.

You're going to have to elaborate, because I don't see it.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm perhaps getting my threads confused, but people talking about drop pods need to realize that they have steadily gotten worse since they changed everything in 5th.

Drop pods were arguably worse in 5th, when people could do a full null deployment and completely screw over your alpha strike.

They still can screw it over, and now there are reserve manipulations and things like scatterbikes and WKs. Pods are worse because Xenos are much scarier.

Firewarriors can get buffed to triple tap, ignore cover, or be BS 5. These synergies make them more valuable than tac marines in practice. Tac marines "advantages" don't translate on the tabletop.

Id put plague marines around the middile ground they are actually quite good same for Noise Marines.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Considering your 700 points of Chaos Space Marines and Fabius Bile have likely killed nothing, how is this supposed to be an argument in their favor?

Where I play, the game is about maelstrom points -- not just killing enemy models.

Martel - it might not happen in your games, but it does in mine.

Pods may be worse than they were, but they are still something most other factions would kill for.

Bharring wrote:
Martel - it might not happen in your games, but it does in mine.

Pods may be worse than they were, but they are still something most other factions would kill for.

Mistakenly. They get you in trouble as much as they help. Especially when you draw Orks or Nids or Daemons. I've basically quit using them since I don't get Skyhammer unless I need locator beacons.

I don't think your games involve the level of meq-murder than mine do. I think that skews your perspective for a competitive setting.

Then I drop the pod behind their line, empty.

If they don't touch it, that's a nice ObSec Line breaker.

If they do take it, they need to divert a heavy hitter (AV12), which means it won't get to my lines as quickly - one less threat to worry about.

Against the typical Tide, Tac Marines can get a number of rounds of shooting.

But then my lists typically have a mix or ranged and CC.

And I don't play competitively.

"And I don't play competitively."

I guess that explains why you think tac marines are worth the plastic they're made out of. They're just victims in my games. But then, realize I haven't seen a DA or guardian in over a year now. It's CWE bikes all the time. Sometimes reserved, but they can afford to lose a turn.

Well, you've pointed out that you only see ScatterBikes, Necrons, and FW for troops.

I don't think I've been arguing that the first two are any better.

But that doesn't make them worthless, unless you're a FOTM player.

I see boyz and such, but against Orks, my dudes just get run over by Orks in Battlewagons. Because assault vehicles that aren't land raiders are really, really good. So in my case, my tac squads get one or two shots vs AV 14 before they get Orked.