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Pod a distraction, with a chance of popping rear armor?

At any rate, I've added a few more, and moved a few around (Demonettes went up a bit).

I'm still not that certain about FW/DA/Tacs, but I'm not sure we'll get much more resolution.

Martel732 wrote:
Demonettes are real feast or famine. I honestly don't know how demons do on threat saturation, but if those things make it to assault, they can buzzsaw down a WK. Mass rending is one of the best things in 7th ed. Because it's one of the few things that GMCs don't ignore outright.

Daemonettes & Horrors are the two best Troops units in the Daemon codex;

- 'Nettes either taken in a large (15-20) sized squad for rushing up the table and murdering things in assaults. Or else Summoned in with a free full command options (including a Champ w/at-initiative ap2).

- Horrors while needing a serious overhaul so that they can go back to working finally in their intended role, bring mass WC's and can (ludicrously!) access Malefic Daemonology and act as Obsec summon batteries.
Either crapping out Daemonettes, Flesh Hounds and/or Lv3 Tzheralds for the most part, with some occasional utility units possible if they land the ability to summon say a small unit of Drones/Screamers/'Crushers.


These guys deserve to be near the top end of the 'best to worst' spectrum, with Plaguebearers & Bloodletters sitting right about the middle of the pack.

Bharring wrote:
Pod a distraction, with a chance of popping rear armor?

At any rate, I've added a few more, and moved a few around (Demonettes went up a bit).

I'm still not that certain about FW/DA/Tacs, but I'm not sure we'll get much more resolution.

As I said, I've mostly quit running pods because they are not good for BA in general (I'm pretending that I'll get to use furious charge someday) and so many people here have been playing against them since 5th.

In practice, DA and FW are more valuable vs the field than tacs. S5 does double wounds to most MCs over bolters and DA rend them out. Both units have better army support as well. Tacs are thrown out there to die, and even if you had a libby conclave, you wouldn't waste buffs on tacs. There are rare cases like all IK where this is not applicable, but most of the time it is.

Because Tacs can only kill things that don't need to be killed, like a Wartruck?

Try podding a Plas/combiPlas behind a Wartrukk. Odds are you pop the truck, but either way something needs to turn around to deal with it.

And that's without tailoring. Melta or even flamer is useful, too.

Martel, I think your opinion is coloured by the fact that you play BA. Try playing a Gladius pod list and your opinion will likely change.

I never knew Demonettes are so well respected.

Deschenus Maximus wrote:
Martel, I think your opinion is coloured by the fact that you play BA. Try playing a Gladius pod list and your opinion will likely change.

Your dudes are still all stranded after they drop. That seems incredibly disadvantageous. However, you've got a huge model count.

It still stands to reason then that tacs aren't good; Gladius makes them good. If tacs were good, then BA would be good. Or a least not trash. I can do the thing that Bharring describes, but I'm ensuring the death of those models and the cost is not trivial.

I suppose I kinda planned on ignoring Formations (GSF, Decurion, Hosts, etc) in this discussion.

If we didn't, SM Tacs would be behind only SL Bikes and maybe Decurion Warriors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Their cost may not be trivial, but it is very common for such a tactic to be worth the 130pts you spend on it.

Ignoring formations is fine. You can compare in a vacuum, if you want, but that's not horribly informative. The key part is that troops are never in a vacuum, but sometimes not in a formation. I think it's also not very informative to rank tacs high because of Gladius, because then you have to add DA tacs, BA tacs, and GH to the list separately.

If we included formations, we'd need to split them apart.

Without including formations, is there enough variance between the Tacs of the factions I listed? I could break them up. CSM and more so PAGK clearly needed to be separate. I don't know about the others.


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Deschenus,
Do you still feel that FW should be below Tacs when not considering formations? If so, could you further elaborate as to why?

What still puzzles me is that certain Marine players can still claim that the Tactical marine is the worst troop choice in the game when Imperial Guard infantry exist.

Bharring wrote:
If we included formations, we'd need to split them apart.

Without including formations, is there enough variance between the Tacs of the factions I listed? I could break them up. CSM and more so PAGK clearly needed to be separate. I don't know about the others.

Between all the Tactics... yes, there is a huge difference. WS Tacs are probably the best.


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 master of ordinance wrote:
What still puzzles me is that certain Marine players can still claim that the Tactical marine is the worst troop choice in the game when Imperial Guard infantry exist.

If they are literally the definition of Meq whilst almost being the worst of the Meq's (only CSM rank lower), they are bad for what you pay for.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Considering your 700 points of Chaos Space Marines and Fabius Bile have likely killed nothing, how is this supposed to be an argument in their favor?

Where I play, the game is about maelstrom points -- not just killing enemy models.

Ok, that's what I play as well. In maelstrom, speed is by far the most important stat. Foot blobs have the opposite of good speed.

Between the different Tac squads, there are what, 9 or so core, and a ton from FW?

Is WS so much better than (who'd be the worst? DA?) that it should be in a different slot?

Does the worst need to be moved down?

 master of ordinance wrote:
What still puzzles me is that certain Marine players can still claim that the Tactical marine is the worst troop choice in the game when Imperial Guard infantry exist.

They're not the worst, but the gap between them and other troops is very small in 7th ed, I think. Most all troops are liabilities except for a select few. Tacs are no different. As I have said, guardsmen benefit disproportionately from divination, and have many more wounds to give up than marines. This is important in a game of D-scythes and IK AP 3 chain guns with ROF 12. You keep looking in the same vacuum in which FW are inferior to tacs, even though in practice they are not.


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Bharring wrote:
Between the different Tac squads, there are what, 9 or so core, and a ton from FW?

Is WS so much better than (who'd be the worst? DA?) that it should be in a different slot?

Does the worst need to be moved down?

GH are still king of the tacs if there is no Gladius. I've never seen a DA tac squad this edition, so maybe they are the worst.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Considering your 700 points of Chaos Space Marines and Fabius Bile have likely killed nothing, how is this supposed to be an argument in their favor?

Where I play, the game is about maelstrom points -- not just killing enemy models.

Ok, that's what I play as well. In maelstrom, speed is by far the most important stat. Foot blobs have the opposite of good speed.

Speed doesn't seem to save me in Maelstrom. I guess because I'm too busy being dead.

There are a lot of MEQ that are lower than SM Tacs.

Plague Marines
Noise Marines
Rubrics
Berserkers
PAGK
CSM Tacs

Also, Marines do rather well at Maelstrom. Put a 5-man Tac squad on something with a Rhino or Pod, and the opponent needs to do more than sneeze. And any contesting unit that Flats Out to do so eats Krak up the tailpipe next turn.

Bharring wrote:
There are a lot of MEQ that are lower than SM Tacs.

Plague Marines
Noise Marines
Rubrics
Berserkers
PAGK
CSM Tacs

Also, Marines do rather well at Maelstrom. Put a 5-man Tac squad on something with a Rhino or Pod, and the opponent needs to do more than sneeze. And any contesting unit that Flats Out to do so eats Krak up the tailpipe next turn.

That's the problem, good lists don't need to do more than sneeze. There's always more scatterlasers, right? Eldar and Tau always have tabling as a fall back option as well. Even BA really don't care about your tac squad, but they do care about a free drop pod. I've murdered 60 tacs in one sitting before, and BA are awful. I can't see how real lists care.

This game has problems, but it is still fun. In some metas, almost anything on that list has a chance to see the table. I've even seen Wyches contribute.

Just because SL Bikes > Tacs doesn't mean its not interesting to compare Scouts to Rangers.

I would say, in certain builds, Chosen can be better than Tacs...

Bharring wrote:
This game has problems, but it is still fun. In some metas, almost anything on that list has a chance to see the table. I've even seen Wyches contribute.

Just because SL Bikes > Tacs doesn't mean its not interesting to compare Scouts to Rangers.

I don't even know the rules for Rangers anymore, but I'm guessing they are better than scouts. Because Phil Kelly.

I think I should wait for more than "CWE therefore OP" before moving them...

Bharring wrote:
I think I should wait for more than "CWE therefore OP" before moving them...

Take Scat bikes off the list... Those fethers aren't even true troop units... they belong in heavy support

Bharring wrote:
I think I should wait for more than "CWE therefore OP" before moving them...

Dude I'm guessing. I have no idea what the rules for them are. No one I know uses them, so I'm guessing they aren't warp spider good.


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 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I think I should wait for more than "CWE therefore OP" before moving them...

Take Scat bikes off the list... Those fethers aren't even true troop units... they belong in heavy support

Super heavy support because they have more firepower than any marine heavy save grav cents. Devastators might as well shoot themselves.

The Genestealer Cult 'Favoured Disciples' seem pretty solid as assault troops.

WS/S/I 4, 3 attacks, Grenades, AP 5 rending, fearless.

Able to infiltrate and 1st turn charge in formation.

These guys are hot stuff.

 dan2026 wrote:
The Genestealer Cult 'Favoured Disciples' seem pretty solid as assault troops.

WS/S/I 4, 3 attacks, Grenades, AP 5 rending, fearless.

Able to infiltrate and 1st turn charge in formation.

These guys are hot gak.

Wow that's nice.

Martel732 wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
The Genestealer Cult 'Favoured Disciples' seem pretty solid as assault troops.

WS/S/I 4, 3 attacks, Grenades, AP 5 rending, fearless.

Able to infiltrate and 1st turn charge in formation.

These guys are hot gak.

Wow that's nice.

Genestealers be crying right now...

No, they're Sniper Scout side grade.

T3 5+ but shrouding
Battle focus and a slightly better pistol, but no Grenades
S3 I5
Vs
T4 4+ Chapter Tactics ATSKNF
Combat Squads and Grenades
S4 I4

And that's the same points. Both are BS4 Sniper Rifles 36" range heavy.

So they shoot the same.
So Rangers survive better in ruins, the same in natural 5+, and worse in the open.
Scouts can threaten CC vs vehicles and a lot of skirmish or ranged targets.

I'd put Sniper Scouts and Rangers in the same place, but there are a lot of other options for Scouts. So I put them higher.

I'm going to give it to scouts since they are more versatile, can take more weapon options and have the best DT in the marine book.

Where in the list do you think the Cult should sit?

Just a few things, I'd put Termagants above Hormagaunts, and you also forgot Necron Immortals.