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Hello dakka,

I could no find a thread about this so here it goes.
Like the title says tips and tricks, what are the abosule must and what are the don't.
Can't wait to see the input

As most GK players will say a Librarian and two DKs are a must in every list.

And the stormraven worth the points?

As it happens I'm also curious about starting a Grey Knight army. I see a lot of people keep the sword instead of buying the upgrades. Are the other nemesis weapons not worth their cost?

 Tainted wrote:
As it happens I'm also curious about starting a Grey Knight army. I see a lot of people keep the sword instead of buying the upgrades. Are the other nemesis weapons not worth their cost?

It really depends on which weapon and on the army- many people keep the swords to save points to get more men (as GK are very elite) and as the sword is still ap3 and the other weapons (apart from the hammer) add not much more, though I personally always take upgrades- a hammer for ap2 goodness, 2 falchions for the extra attacks, and a halberd, just in case of MCs.

 Tainted wrote:
As it happens I'm also curious about starting a Grey Knight army. I see a lot of people keep the sword instead of buying the upgrades. Are the other nemesis weapons not worth their cost?

This is hotly debated. Some, like myself prefer Halrberds as you don't always need to cast Hammerhand, leaving warpcharge for other stuff. Others are like the Falcions because there is greater damage output "potential", but you must rely on Hammerhand. Always put 1-2 hammers per 5 Terminators.

If you mean Strike squad, then no upgrades, they aren't worth it for only 1atk.

Standard build for DKs is teleporter, sword, heavy psycannon & incinerator. Teleporter is a MUST, otherwise why bother. Some like the Hammer instead of the Sword, but Master Crafted works all the time, Concussive is situational. Some like the heavy Pscilencer, but the Psycannon is better against everything but T5 MCs. Str4 just isn't a good option for your 200+ pt work-horse.

arthorn wrote:
And the stormraven worth the points?

Stormravens vary. They are your best anti-air in a pure GK list and they can do air-to-ground well. You probably don't wanna use Dreadnoughts at all, much less schlep one around on a 'Raven, but the fact that it's a flying assault transport shouldn't be overlooked. All in all, the 'Raven is expensive, but can be worth it in the right list. It's not one of the starred auto-includes, but it's not garbage by a longshot, either.

Well an important thing to make sure is, whether or not you play with the ITC rulings, where your only able to choose force or hammerhand on your terminators. If you don't play with ITC I would go with swords or falchions.

Storm raven with a dreadnought in tow and a squad of purifiers is not a terrible investment if you are running pure greyknights. It has the potential to break the back of many armies and as greyknights - it's tricks like this that win you games.

I've run it like this before.

Take 3 DK
2 term squads and a libby

Stormraven
Venerable dread with MM
10 man purifier with 4 hammers

It was a lot of fun and I absolutely steamrolled a 2k army in 3 turns. However, everything went right for me. I lost 0 DK on turn 1 and busted out a vortex of doom that instant killed my enemies pask russ (GK warlord trait that allows for reroll scatter auto first turn deep strike *best warlord trait in the game*) My dreadknights also almost paid for themselves in first turn damage too. The Raven insured my victory though when it dropped it's purifiers into his mech line and just obliterated everything. In pure greyknight the raven is actually quite strong as it gives you some late game presence.

some tricks:

- 5 Purifiers in a Rhino. The Rhino can move 12" and the Purifiers can use Cleansing Flame from the hatch without penalty. It automatically hits everything nearby, including Fliers, invisible units and units out of line of sight. (Alternatively, if you're not apposed to allies, you can ally in empty Drop Pods to carry Purifiers)

- Interceptors with Incinerators. They can make a 30" move once per game and precisely fire their Incinerators at something.

- Dreadknights with Teleporters have the same 30" move as Interceptors. Have all your Dreadknights and Interceptors perform the move together to give your opponent too many units to shoot at. Works great against gunlines.

Things I've learned since picking up 40K last year as a budding Grey Knight:

Great: Our librarians, our terminator troops w/ psycannon (best termies in the biz, point for point), NDK's with Sword for at-initiative S10 swings, Heavy Cannon and Incinerator, the NSF detachment for turn 1 DS potential. A hidden thunderhammer per squad.

Good: Interceptors, Purifiers in a ride, Draigo. The NDK hammer and psilencer

Debated: Stormraven, Paladins, melee weapon choice.

Bad: Strike Squads, Dreadnoughts, psycannons and psilencers on Power Armor soldiers. NDK with no teleporter

The weapon debate seems to go like this: Keep 'em cheap with swords for more boots on the ground, or go falchions for the math-hammered best damage ratio. Lots of people love their halberds, and they do look cool, but math-wise they're only best when actively avoiding using Hammerhand. I personally fall into camp #1 since we're so elite, with the exception of interceptors, who make great Assault Marines with falchions (I still run them with swords more often than not, myself).

Tricks? Neuter your enemy in the psychic phase and buff yourself to the stratosphere. Telepathy, Divination, and Sanctic all have different approaches to achieve this. My personal take on the Stormraven is to leave it at home. I've had much better luck ignoring flyers and driving two rhino's with a 5 man squad of purifiers each around rather than putting all my eggs in one basket that may not arrive when I need it to.

I seem to miss why halberds are debatable, 1+ strength for 2 points seems like a no brainer also because it's like max 30 points, which would give you almost. Two falchions would leave you without a storm bolter no?

Why are paladins mediocre, they look awesome 2 w termies, are they two expensive?

What squad size is good for termies I would say 5 since its footprint will be too big:/

Can you explain a bit more why you choose interceptors for just 3+ t4 they look like the perfect target to shoot at after they shunt

The +1 attack from Falchions deal more wounds than the +1 Str from Halberds, at all toughness up to T7. At T8 and higher, the Hammer you should be taking at 1 per 5 model deals more wounds than the Halberds. This puts Halberds lower than free Swords in overall worth.

SJ

Ok clear so your termi load out is4 falchions1 hammer,psycannon?

For some reason the land raider redemmer seems like the best choice since you are moving forward as gk.

Some rules of GK :-

1. Take as many Dreadknights as possible, it can't be underestimated how much of the heavy lifting they do in a GK list. If you play in a group that uses multiple detachments, take two NSF for four Dreadknights. Oh, and the Personal Teleporter isn't an option, it's mandatory.

2. Never, ever, deep strike your army en-masse. It's far too random for such an elite army and will see your force taken apart piecemeal

3. GK are a fast army that will take your opponent by surprise and are at their best in Maelstrom missions. NDKs and Interceptors move 12" and 30" shunt, gate Terminators to an Interceptor carried homer.
Against unaware opponents I'll typically be in their deployment zone on a flank turn 1 and in assault turn 2 whilst Interceptors are pinging around the board getting Maelstrom points.

4. GK Librarians are great. You'll almost always want one Lvl3 Librarian with the relic Liber rolling on Santic, with the bonus of another extra power via the warlord trait.

5. Shake off the 5th ed mindset - Psycannons and Storm Bolters don't do much. GK don't have the volume of fire they had in 5th, and the game has changed much since then. Incinerators on Terminators/Interceptors and Gatling Psilencers/Heavy Incinerators on Dreadknights are your friend.

6. Don't get caught up in CC upgrades, get boots on the ground first. The standard Sword with Force and Hammerhand as needed is fine.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The +1 attack from Falchions deal more wounds than the +1 Str from Halberds, at all toughness up to T7. At T8 and higher, the Hammer you should be taking at 1 per 5 model deals more wounds than the Halberds. This puts Halberds lower than free Swords in overall worth.

SJ

You are only right *IF* Hammerhand is successfully cast and NOT denied. Niether of those conditions are garunteed, and in my experience other powers tend to take priority (only so much Warp charge to go around). +1 Str from Halberds IS garunteed.

This boils down to play style
Do you prefer greater possibility at the risk of not having the ability you need and built the list for? Then Falcions are for you
Do you prefer to build a list that has garunteed abilities that can be, but don't need to be boosted? Then Halberds are for you

This is purely for Terminators, of course, maybe Purifiers. Any other unit isn't worth giving the upgrade.

--

arthorn wrote:
Ok clear so your termi load out is4 falchions1 hammer,psycannon?

For some reason the land raider redemmer seems like the best choice since you are moving forward as gk.

Land Raiders are very poor this edition because they're expensive and vehicles. Vehicles in general need abilities like Jink to make them survivable, and they need to be cheap. All a Land Raider has is AV 14 which may seem good but the current meta has a lot of Melta, Hay-wire and D weapons that have the potential to one-shot your very expensive vehicle. When you consider the fact that you're going to put a 200+ point unit in a 250+ point tank you realize that it becomes a VERY easy target for your opponent's big guns and will die very quickly. In the end you have to consider why your models need a transport in the first place when they have built-in Deep Strike to get them across the board. The only unit in the codex worth transporting are Purifiers, and a Rhino or Drop Pod will serve them better because they're cheap transports.

 Galef wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The +1 attack from Falchions deal more wounds than the +1 Str from Halberds, at all toughness up to T7. At T8 and higher, the Hammer you should be taking at 1 per 5 model deals more wounds than the Halberds. This puts Halberds lower than free Swords in overall worth.

SJ

You are only right *IF* Hammerhand is successfully cast and NOT denied. Niether of those conditions are garunteed, and in my experience other powers tend to take priority (only so much Warp charge to go around). +1 Str from Halberds IS garunteed.

This boils down to play style
Do you prefer greater possibility at the risk of not having the ability you need and built the list for? Then Falcions are for you
Do you prefer to build a list that has garunteed abilities that can be, but don't need to be boosted? Then Halberds are for you

This is purely for Terminators, of course, maybe Purifiers. Any other unit isn't worth giving the upgrade.

--

Hammerhand doesn't matter in a +1 Attack vs +1 Str comparison, as with or without Hammerhand it's still +1 Attack vs +1 Str. And +1 Attack nets more wounds upto T7, while at T8 or higher Str 8/10 from a Hammer nets more wounds. And as always, Swords are free.

As to null deployment and mass Deep Striking, I advize never reserving more than two non-Flyer units, ever, unless you have access to Drop Pods. In my normal game, it my Libby rolls Gate, all of my units start on the table, with Draigo Gatting one GKT squad while the Libby Gates the other. If not, one squad of GKT will get reserved for DS while the other Gates with Draigo and the Libby.

As to Land Raiders, Draigo is the only Land Raider you will ever need.

SJ

Ok clear! wondering how the trick with interceptor works only way I can think is with psy power gate, are you allowed to charge after a gate?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The +1 attack from Falchions deal more wounds than the +1 Str from Halberds, at all toughness up to T7. At T8 and higher, the Hammer you should be taking at 1 per 5 model deals more wounds than the Halberds. This puts Halberds lower than free Swords in overall worth.

SJ

You are only right *IF* Hammerhand is successfully cast and NOT denied. Niether of those conditions are garunteed, and in my experience other powers tend to take priority (only so much Warp charge to go around). +1 Str from Halberds IS garunteed.

This boils down to play style
Do you prefer greater possibility at the risk of not having the ability you need and built the list for? Then Falcions are for you
Do you prefer to build a list that has garunteed abilities that can be, but don't need to be boosted? Then Halberds are for you

This is purely for Terminators, of course, maybe Purifiers. Any other unit isn't worth giving the upgrade.

--

Hammerhand doesn't matter in a +1 Attack vs +1 Str comparison, as with or without Hammerhand it's still +1 Attack vs +1 Str. And +1 Attack nets more wounds upto T7, while at T8 or higher Str 8/10 from a Hammer nets more wounds. And as always, Swords are free.

As to null deployment and mass Deep Striking, I advize never reserving more than two non-Flyer units, ever, unless you have access to Drop Pods. In my normal game, it my Libby rolls Gate, all of my units start on the table, with Draigo Gatting one GKT squad while the Libby Gates the other. If not, one squad of GKT will get reserved for DS while the other Gates with Draigo and the Libby.

As to Land Raiders, Draigo is the only Land Raider you will ever need.

SJ

You're right on Halberd and Hammerhand, though with tournament rules they pick up a bit more use in my opinion since you can only cast Force OR Hammerhand and not both. Halberds also give a cheap little boost to hurting AV 10-11 so you don't need to waste charges on Hammerhand.

I have to disagree with Deep Strike though. Putting teleport Homers on interceptors and mass deep striking for an Alpha Strike can be devestating. It is still pretty effective on turn 2 or even 3 as well. It also won't use up warp charges for the arrival turn like gating will. No warp perils either.

With Rites of Teleportation we have about a 2/3 chance per turn per unit of getting the reserves in. People get upset about scatter because they are focused too much on assault: our shooting actually isn't that bad either. A huge deep strike let's you really select targets to focus firepower and be less worried about scattering.

Draigo is definitely a power pick but I don't think he's essential anymore. You can make a competitive list without him.

All in all, I guess I'm just trying to say this is one way of making a list (a solid list too), but there are others. We have limited diversity as an army and shouldn't try to restrict it further than needed. If I'm interpreting your tone wrong I apologize.

There are too many anti-reserve shenanigans that counter pro-reserve buffs too be able to rely on arriving on demand without an actual "Drop Pod Assault" style special rule, so I advocate against it. Rites is a great tool because it's a multi-tool, it has bits that fit what you need most of the time.

Here's the thing about Rites, Homers, and Intercept. Per the BRB, probably due to a copy-paste/lack of a competent editor, "Deep Strike" and "Deep Strike Reserve" mean the exact same thing. As such, when a unit of TDA use Gate, they can use a Teleport Homer to avoid scatter and even run-shoot/shoot-run via Rites, however, they cannot charge, and they can be intercepted. The argument against being able to use Rites or Homers means that they would not be intercepted, but might be able to charge (depending on how well you argue). In the end, DS = DSR, and both Rites and Homers trigger on DSR when a unit DSs. And so does Intercept. So no charging.

And never put Incinerators on TDA models. A Psycannon might kill a Land Raider give good rolls, while an Incinerator never will regardless of rolls. Incinerators are best left to PA units and NDKs. Interceptors shine with Incinerators, while DreadKnights are the best platform for both the Heavy Psycannon and the Heavy Incinerator.

On Psilencers, there is a good argument to never ever waste points on these useless weapons. There is also the evidence that Psilencers are cancer to Necrons, Tau, and Daemons. My advice is, the Gatling Psilencer is an awesome 2nd weapon on your 2nd DreadKnight, as long as the Heavy Psycannon is the 1st weapon on both. 12 "bolter" shots is no laughing matter, especially when those "bolter" shots ID on a failed save, and even a Riptide will fail a save.

SJ

I like to take a 5 man purifier squad with 2 psilencers in a rhino. Even if you don't activate force, 12 shots out of the top is a pretty good amount of shots, if there are any FMC's move into range and then unleash ID hell, you're already firing snapshots because it's a flyer so you get to chase it around. Also cleansing flame hits flyers without any resrictions. It is a pretty solid backbone to my gunline, and 2 psilencers = one gatling psilencer without having to water down your dredknight.

Are psilincers really that good, I mean for the strenght 4 I would awesome you barely wound, or is the rof high enough?

With about Ik?

Psilencers are situational and niche, and takng any means you aren't taking a Psycannon or Incinerator. This is why I recommend only the Gatling Psilencer, and only on a second NDK in place of Heavy Incinerator.

As to Imperial Knights, I love the Errant at 1850 or over, because it's more aggressive weapons load fits my play style. The Warden is also an excellent choice, as is the Paladin. I would avoid the Crusader, though; not because it's bad (it's actually really good), but because it's expensive and that means less points spent on GK. The Gallant has it's place, but not in a GK list where every unit should be an all-rounder. Of the FW Knights, each one is a bit specielized, so picking one that synergizes well with your army is really meta dependent. The Acheron is a great "all-rounder", while the Castigator is a great "anti-horde", for example. If I had the ponts, I'd try an Atrapos. Nothing says "Hi!" like a Mini-Titan wielding a Lightsaber and a Blackhole cannon!

SJ

arthorn wrote:
Are psilincers really that good, I mean for the strenght 4 I would awesome you barely wound, or is the rof high enough?

With about Ik?

Psilencers are really only good at taking down FMCs and picking off individual multi-wound targets (i.e. no vehicles). But falls into the same conundrum of hammerhand/halberds. It's great if you successfully cast force and if it doesn't get denied. Also consider you should always be casting sanctuary on your NDKs and your throwing 4 WCs on one character, who isn't your libby, because otherwise your 200+ pt MC is just a more expensive terminator with less wounds than an entire squad (2+/5++ is good 2+/4++ is better) So the psilencer is useful if it has a target and if you cast force and if it isn't denied and if you have WCs to spare. A whole lot of ifs over a psycannon with is all around more useful.

arthorn wrote:
I seem to miss why halberds are debatable, 1+ strength for 2 points seems like a no brainer also because it's like max 30 points, which would give you almost. Two falchions would leave you without a storm bolter no?

Why are paladins mediocre, they look awesome 2 w termies, are they two expensive?

What squad size is good for termies I would say 5 since its footprint will be too big:/

Can you explain a bit more why you choose interceptors for just 3+ t4 they look like the perfect target to shoot at after they shunt

Falchion carriers still have storm bolters thanks to those sweet wrist mounts.

Yeah, paladins are too expensive to risk ID on S8+ while still not bringing any additional offensive power beyond an extra psycannon per 5 models.

I've rarely had problems placing a full 10 terminators. However, I use servo skulls from Codex: Inquisition to mitigate scatter. They'll usually be left in the open, but after that alpha strike, you might find they're all of a sudden out of range of half of the enemy's small arms fire, which we all know is the true bane of the 2+ armor. Same goes for the 3+ interceptors. You can easily get that perfect placement of template + 4x stormbolters and wipe out a whole enemy unit from the get-go.

I would love a mono gk, (gathering models right now) see how I do in my local meta. However I can of allying what do you recommend, cen star, ik?

I recommend an IK.

SJ

If you have 500 points to spare, and aren't trying to win tournaments, a brotherhood champion, in a stormraven, with 10 arco-flagellants or death cult assassins is fun. Cast hammerhand and enjoy your 50 I 5 s7, or 40 I 6 s5 ap3 attacks, all before your Gk has even lifted a finger.

Any thoughts on draigo, stern crow, etc?nauto includes or niches?