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So as you should all know, deathwatch overkill, the new set is going to be released and gamesworkshop just released rules for all of the models. Now, I'm no expert on tyranids, I just started and I am looking to blow some money on a set. It is either going to be the tyranids start collecting, or deathwatch overkill. The deciding factor (putting aside the fact of costs, because the sheer awesomeness of genestealer cults shuts down the higher price) is the HQ, I am looking for an HQ for my tyranid army, and it doesnt have to be a flyrant or anything OP, but I do need to know whether or not the new genestealer patriarch is a good model in gameplay or not. Here is the link to the rules for all the models, but if you have the time to look at some of the other genestealer cult stats that would also be amazing. Thanks in advanced! https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Deathwatch/40k-rules-deathwatch-en.pdf

The Patriarch is a good model, heck, the entire Cult formation is very very good. The simple fact they get access to Telepathy with 2 level 2 psykers makes they exciting, add in the charge first turn option makes them even more attractive.

The Patriarch himself is what a Patriarch should be, good on the offence but lacking defence. He has rending lightning claws at High WS, I, A and S but his defence is only T5 and a 4+ Sv.

The idea being you can chose your Warlord depending on what needs doing. Need to suicide charge the Patriarch to mess up the opponents plans? Just pick the cover camping Magnus as your Warlord. Don't trust the 3rd gen bodyguard then choose the Primus as your Warlord and rock with the 1st gens.

I'm getting the formation. It looks fun and competitive. Thumbs up.

Thanks!

 Honthor wrote:
I am looking for an HQ for my tyranid army...

The Genestealer Patriarch is Faction: Genestealer Cult and can't be an HQ in a Tyranid detachment as most detachments are restricted to a single faction. You could run a Genestealer Cult detachment alongside a Tyranid detachment as Battle Brothers, but any units in the Tyranid detachment must come from Codex Tyranids.

As pointed out, however, I think genestealer cults will quickly find their place in many tyranid lists. You need only 150 points for an allied detachment which gives you some solid troops and a level 2 psyker to roll on telepathy. A CAD will run you 350 points but net you two ML2 psykers who can roll on telepathy. The 600 point formation is pretty good, if a little odd and limiting in some ways.

Ghaz is correct though that he can't be your HQ choice for Tyranids. Grab a flying hive tyrant and call it a day. It's one of the best units in all of 40k. But the genestealer cult is definitely worth considering in tandem with your tyranids.

Oh, they are counting Genestealer Cults as a separate faction for Tyranids? I wonder what faction the Deathwatch guys are? Do they have their own faction, or are they Inquisition (the symbol on the top of the dataslate looks like the Inquisition symbol is why I ask)?

Edit: Nevermind, I found the answer myself.

His BS 0 making him unable to use Psychic Shriek really dampens his appeal to me.

Invisible hive tyrants are a thing now. Invisible swarm lord and his hive guard flunkies can be a thing now. Infiltrated shrouded genestealers are a thing that can happen. Fearless blobs of gaunts or a carnifex brood out of synapse range is a thing.

Nids have suffered quite a lot in 7th from the lack of invis, and with them being battle brothers, that is rectified to a degree. The only dud power for nids is Hallucinate (and that's a dud for everyone), but terrify stacks with SitW, meaning marines/eldar are testing on what, 7's? 6's if it's a conclave/council? Fearless in an army that can struggle with units out of synapse is a great boon and dominate is a decent enough consolation prize if you fail to get either of the power duo.

Invis is going to be just as strong, if not stronger, on 'nids as it is on anything else and shrouded that can infiltrate means genestealers might have some relevance again, since 2+ cover in ruins is no joke and even a 3+ in a forest is a terrifying prospect for many armies.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
His BS 0 making him unable to use Psychic Shriek really dampens his appeal to me.

Considering his own articles and stories talk about him using shriek this is More about poor rules writing. I figure most tournaments will allow him to use telepathy especially considering shriek doesn't really require bs to work.

It's a witchfire. You need to roll to hit with it.

Just every roll is a failure.

And the failure doesn't matter because the effect makes no mention of it needing that hit to be successful, just that the effect happens. It's an old song and dance and doesn't need to be rehashed. We all know how it goes. There will be no agreement between folks on either side.

I'll say though, this Formation revitalized my interest in Nids pretty friggin well. I just hope my Meta calms down and I can play these fun options.

you assume you anytime roll successfuly for invisibility/shroud and if that will not happen? how many lev2 telepathy psyonics you can usewith the cult?

Has there been any official material where the Patriarch has used the Psychic Shriek?

I believe GW must of indented him to be able to use it.

i think nowhere someone will let you use a model with ab0 and shoot something. psychic fire need to hit is like if you give a bolter to one with AB0 and demand it hit something.

 dan2026 wrote:
Has there been any official material where the Patriarch has used the Psychic Shriek?

I believe GW must of indented him to be able to use it.

Unless they do something like FAQ him to have a rule that allows him to do something like use WS to use Psychic Shriek, it wouldn't matter if they did or not. BS 0 Witchfire always miss. And hitting is required for the power to go off.

Let's not derail this into a YMDC thread (especially since that exact topic has been covered EXTENSIVELY)

It's true that invisible Tyranids will be happy Tyranids. I plan to try it out on a squad of 3 carnifexes and also a Dimachaeron.

The issue right now, however, is that you only get that power 33% of the time with a patriarch. With his friend the magus also attempting, one of them gets it 55% of the time. That's not reliable enough to make a list or strategy around. If I could have 4 ML2 guys trying for it, I'd give it a go. Then, I would get invis a little over 80% of the time. Still not exactly ideal, but at that point I could have a unit that needed invis. Even then, though, that's still a really big points investment so you would want to make sure to have a unit that needed shrouded as well to maximize the benefit.

indeed, right now list which want rely on invisibility plays Be'lakor, i m unsure you could build a tyr list rely on invis and then dont draw it....

 blackmage wrote:
indeed, right now list which want rely on invisibility plays Be'lakor, i m unsure you could build a tyr list rely on invis and then dont draw it....

Sure you could. You just have a much worse chance of winning when you don't roll it

Which is why it doesn't appear on the competitive scene. Lists that are built around psychic powers usually have 90 plus percent chance of getting the power(s) that they need to function

 luke1705 wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
indeed, right now list which want rely on invisibility plays Be'lakor, i m unsure you could build a tyr list rely on invis and then dont draw it....

Sure you could. You just have a much worse chance of winning when you don't roll it

Which is why it doesn't appear on the competitive scene. Lists that are built around psychic powers usually have 90 plus percent chance of getting the power(s) that they need to function

this is why probably tyr will keep play 4-5 flyrants

 blackmage wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
indeed, right now list which want rely on invisibility plays Be'lakor, i m unsure you could build a tyr list rely on invis and then dont draw it....

Sure you could. You just have a much worse chance of winning when you don't roll it

Which is why it doesn't appear on the competitive scene. Lists that are built around psychic powers usually have 90 plus percent chance of getting the power(s) that they need to function

this is why probably tyr will keep play 4-5 flyrants

Perhaps. But this opens up our options a little. I have actual hopes for how it may change with the genestealer cult mini dex

 Ghaz wrote:

 Honthor wrote:
I am looking for an HQ for my tyranid army...

The Genestealer Patriarch is Faction: Genestealer Cult and can't be an HQ in a Tyranid detachment as most detachments are restricted to a single faction. You could run a Genestealer Cult detachment alongside a Tyranid detachment as Battle Brothers, but any units in the Tyranid detachment must come from Codex Tyranids.

I am liking this because nids cant ally with anyone. Suddenly with the resurrection of the genestealer cults (long overdue IMHO) tyrannid armies may soon be able to take IG vehicles, as battle brothers no less.
I hope the genestealer cult expands beyond the formation from the boardgame and allows for subverted planetary defence force miniatures to be included. All you need really is a single sprue with 3rd/4th generation hybrids to add to heavy weapons teams, and also hydrid torsos and heads to add to bvehicle hatches. So it need not be a big sprue frankly and will add enormous versatility to genestealer cult detachments and thus nids in general.

@orlanth. Do you mean fluffwise? Because rules wise they can ally with everyone.

 JamesY wrote:
@orlanth. Do you mean fluffwise? Because rules wise they can ally with everyone.

AFAIK Nids can only ally in Come the Apocalypse.

If the Genestealer cult can ally with anyone I am surprised, I cant see many factions wanting to rub shoulders with genestealers frankly.

Come the Apocalypse doesn't stop them from allying. It just adds rules to things. Only FW still restricts allies with 'you can't do that', but GW proper allows anything at any time.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Come the Apocalypse doesn't stop them from allying. It just adds rules to things. Only FW still restricts allies with 'you can't do that', but GW proper allows anything at any time.

This is true but Come the Apocalypse is seen as a form of 'cant ally', because you can, but it hurts your strategy.

Genestealer cult Russes however, if we get them, can directly follow up waves of nids and provide close support, and do things nids cant do without a biotitan.

Is a patriarch like a broodlord.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
The Patriarch is a good model, heck, the entire Cult formation is very very good. The simple fact they get access to Telepathy with 2 level 2 psykers makes they exciting, add in the charge first turn option makes them even more attractive.

The Patriarch himself is what a Patriarch should be, good on the offence but lacking defence. He has rending lightning claws at High WS, I, A and S but his defence is only T5 and a 4+ Sv.

The idea being you can chose your Warlord depending on what needs doing. Need to suicide charge the Patriarch to mess up the opponents plans? Just pick the cover camping Magnus as your Warlord. Don't trust the 3rd gen bodyguard then choose the Primus as your Warlord and rock with the 1st gens.

I'm getting the formation. It looks fun and competitive. Thumbs up.

If he is on his own, the Patriarch is just ok, as a upgraded, more psychic powerful and reliable marine killing Genestealer Broodlord, but with the full Cult formation, he is awesome with his combat ability and the bonus of infiltrating 1 inch and charge in T1, those important enemy units like IG HWS, Marine Devastators, Centurions, CSM Havocs, will get wrecked before they can even do anything. Even they are not wiped outright, T5, 4+ save and 3W will get these long ranged squads without AP4 melee weapons carrying models (which are usually the power weapons sarge who will surely be challenged out and killed quickly) tied up for a few vital turns, letting them helplessly watching other Nids fast moving units bearing down on them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
Is a patriarch like a broodlord.

He is 3W, and with a pair of AP3 shred rending claw, Lvl 2 psyker who knows Telepathy powers. Of course, he is way more expensive then a normal broodlord.

The models are amazing in deathwatch, and the rules and formation are good. I think they are worth getting first then eventually get the starter box also, and a couple flyrants. the deathwatch stuff isn't game breaking by any means but is actually pretty good, and everyone seems to enjoy it.

My mind immediately went to skytyrant formation. A reaper tyrant with all those gargoyles suddenly protected by invisibility? And, for anyone with their codex on hand, does a tyrant have to join tyrant guard? If not three t-guard taken as a by product of a flyrant could be a great escort for the patriarch. Both increasing his survivability with t6, and the guard benefiting from stealth and infiltrate.


List 1.2, removed derp
Patriarch
Faithful throng

Skytyrant formation
-tyrant w/ reaper, rending claws, e-grubs
-2x 20 gargoyles

HFL Detachment
Flyrant 2x TL-Devourers, e-grubs
Flyrant 2x TL-Devourers, e-grubs
Flyrant 2x TL-Devourers, e-grubs
Tyrant guard brood, Adrenal, 2x LWBS, 1x crushing claw
Malanthrope
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid

More I look at it, the faithful throng are a cheap source of strongoing ap2 firepower. Those guys with a Malanthrope babysitting will be decent.

Your list is Unbound due to Patriarch Ghosar (an HQ choice) and the Purestrain Princelings (an Elites choice) not being in a Detachment. Are you and your opponents okay with that?