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So I am a Blood Angels player. After a recent tournament I was really frustrated with my army and how they played until the 3rd and final round against a guy who was playing orks. It felt like a constant uphill battle against the first 2. 1 was Tau other Guard with lots of vehicles. I didn't feel like I was getting to utilize my army properly. It was only at orks where I was able to feel like I was doing something right.

What this all boils down is really what should I really be doing as a Blood Angel player? I've tried a few lists but I feel like I'm stuck in a rut with no options. For anyone who wants to know what I was running this was list.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uld13KHebMrbkzCZFWyo0-k2us0K9QLs-zwZf1G4aOE/edit?usp=sharing

Most of my lists have been very similar and I want to branch out and play more to strengths of army so I can stay somewhat competitive. I want to try and be more competitive in my game and with my army.

Playing another army if you really want to be competative. The bottom tier can't really win against the top tier without some sort of medical emergency on the part of the other player if they're running even a semi competative list.

My first bit of advice (as a non-BA player, so take it with a grain of salt) is to stop taking gabriel seth since he's terrible, not just as LoW, but as something worth spending 155 points on.

The triple raven charge out of deep strike formation is a bit too expensive for 1600 I think, but you might have some success with the sternguard in a raven and double vanguard formation bolstered with a libby, priest and sang guard and maybe a podded fragnaught with a locator beacon plus troop tax.

Martel, for all his complaining about how terrible BA are, plays in a very competative meta, so he should be able to point you in the right direction.

Perhaps include some grav bikers, since grav tends to solve virtually every problem marines have, and it's one of the 2 things (the other is free transports) that make vanilla marines good.

At a second pass on your list (please make it more reader friendly next time), why are you taking a missile launcher in a drop pod? Veteran sarge and power weapons are generally wasted points too since in a competative meta, tacs aren't ever going to be assaulting anything anyway.

Ditch the death masks, no-one gives a crap about fear except Orks, CSM and DE (all of whome are bottom of the barrel anyway).

Those melta speeders are a lot of points when you could be doig the same job with a melta and combi melta on a 5 man tac squad in a pod as your troops tax.

Extra armour does nothing for your vindicator as the difference between stunned and shaken doesn't really matter since you still can't fire. Buy a stormbolter instead so you at least have a chance at saving the demolisher cannon from weapon destroyed results. Being the only vehicle and firing a Str 10 AP2 pie close to expensive melee troops who rely in either 2+ armour or FNP to survive sounds like a recipe for disaster to me anyway.

Why are you taking death company and then leaving them with bolters and no combat weapons? You'll want at least 1 fist, if not a couple of power weapons as well, in there to punch out tough stuff while the others are bullet catchers.

Do you know the difference between bolter death company and normal marines in a competative meta? Death company cost far more when they die with no saves to str8 AP2 ignores cover pie plates.

I'd be giving the DC jump packs, a fist, a pair of power weapons and trading Seth for Dante, but that's just me. The Sang priest goes with the Sang Guard and maybe a libby to run around and mess up anything without AP2. Finding points for the snap shot interceptor jump pack wouldn't hurt either.

If those scouts are meant to camp an objective, might as well pay 5 points to hand out sniper rifles. If they're meant to infiltrate and attack something, consider finding 5 points to give them sniper rifles and instead, camp out a backfield objective in a ruin.

DC should be jump packs, one power fist per 5 men and the rest bolt pistol/cc weapon.

Don't use SG they are bad.

Don't use Seth, he is bad.

Don't use Vindicators, they are bad.

Don't use full tac squads, they are mega bad.

For troops, you want 5 man CC scouts with a melta bomb sarge or minimum tac squads with combi/special in a Rhino w/ dozer blade.

Podded fragnoughts are decent.

Podded heavy flamer tacs are decent.

Podded 5-man ASM with 3X melta are decent.

Grav bikers are decent.

MM attack bikes are decent.

Sternguard, naked or with a few combi-melta, are decent. Do not suicide them.

Dante is decent.

Multiple librarians is decent, even though we lack conclave.

I am in a similar boat... so I did two things:

1. Since I've been in the hobby since 1997, I started playing a Red Marine GSF. It took my 2 losses for every win to winning more than losing.

2. I play an Eldar Scatterbike list when people ask me to be competitive. It's like pushing the easy button... and I feel like I am cheating.

Use the Vanilla Marines if you wanna remain competitve for now, as most of the BA's stuff would correspond to something in the vanilla dex. If you don't wanna field your DC as Vanguard Vets or Honor Guard, you can run the Strike Force Mortalis (which is only DC units, Storm Raven and a single Chaplain) without being "taxed" by other BA units. Furiosos, unless you want the frag cannon, make for good Ironclads.

Most BA players don't have the units that make vanilla marines tick, though. No Storms, no TFCs, no cents, not enough bikes, etc.

Blood Angels for all their faults, can still play a very solid extreme MSU game, and can bring a semi-durable Deathstar unit in the form of Death Company and/or a 'mini' Gravbikestar.

For HQ's:
- Sang Priest
- Chappy
- Librarians
Ignore everything else.

On bikes, you can throw ALL your IC's into a Bike Squad. With a Sang Priest in their, Bikes suddenly become near-Necron levels of resilient, thanks to T5/3+/5+++. A Chappy w/Power fist + Corzius on bike can tank most things short of a GMC/SHV.
Librarians should be aiming for either Telepathy (if it's available), Biomancy, or Santic Daemonology. Ignore all the other lores.


For Elites:
- 5 man Sterns
- Death Co.
- Fragiosos
- Vanguard (only if taking their relevant formation)
Ignore everything else.

Sterns are good for min/maxing out on special weapons/combi-weapons. Death Company can be turned into a poor man's deathstar unit, though they're still nowhere near the levels of true deathstars.
Fragiosos in Drop Pods are filthy-good at removing anything not hiding in a transport and/or MCs'/GMC's.


For Troops:
- 5 man Scout Squads with 0 upgrades for cheapness.
- 5 man Tactical Squads with either Plasma/Grav + matching combi-weapon, OR, Heavy flamer + dual Hand flamer Sergeant.

Naked Scout squads are purely for early board control (Infiltrate deployment), and/or camping out on Objectives.
For the Tacticals, if you take the Plasma/Grav option, then Razorbacks are the ideal support transport that will lend additional firepower. The template spam version go in a Drop Pod.


For Fast Attack:
- 5 man Assault Squad w/double special weapon.
- 3 man Bike squad w/full Grav + Combi-Grav.
- Land Speeder w/either Multi-melta + Typhoon launcher OR dual Heavy flamer.

The Assault Squad is for suicide dropping against a choice target. (ie: double Melta squad aims for a big juicy tank). Plasma/Grav is too expensive to run in this way, as the goal is to simply keep these guys as dirt cheap as possible - firstly to increase the return you'll make with them, secondly, to make the waste of resources needed to deal with them hurt as much as possible!

3 man Bike squads loaded for bear with Grav are your literal "everything but worthless hordes I don't help with anyways" killers. Put simply, Grav is stupidly OP. Sadly, BA's don't have access to the most obnoxious source of it, (the broken as gak Grav Cannon w/amps), but thanks to bikes being a Relentless platform, this unit can nuke literally anything short of a GMC/SHV in one fell swoop.

Land Speeders w/Multi-melta + Typhoon launcher are for annoying the living feth out of opponents by functioning as a 'poor mans scatbike'. While they won't nuke hordes, you can use these to plug away at armoured targets and/or whittle away MC's so that another unit can finish it off.
The double Heavy flamer versions are obviously, simply for taking out infantry in general through weight of dice thanks to all those automatic hits.


For Heavy Support:
Just ignore it entirely... You've got 0 access to Grav cannons, and Marine tanks in general are at best purely average for what you get. Unlike SW's or Templars, you don't have a worthwhile unit to throw into one of those hyper expensive Land Raiders, since Death Company can simply take Jump Packs for a fraction of the cost!


The real key with BA's is to abuse your min/max philosophy & use multiple basic CAD's, especially since Fast Attack is an area you really, really want to spam! (those Grav Bikes man!)
Also, if you go the Character spam, you'll need the added slots, especially if you're wanting to spam Librarians. (who are easily the best Marine HQ option in general, though lack of Telepathy really hurts BA's) Still, Santic has plenty of lovely tricks, despite the risks. Hell, landing Cleansing Flame is worth potentially nuking your Psyker, since it's really the game's best FMC killer. (2D6/S5 auto-hits vs. everything in range? Hell yes!!)
I've nuked multiple Nurgle DP's with that gem, and it only gets even better if/when you see Flyrant spam.

Overall BA's are definitely the new "have-not" Marines, due to them being the last codex prior to the shift towards the 7.5ed 'super detachments', and missing out on the Grav cannon which came out only a few months later.

Still, BA's are not the absolute worst, as things like Grav, formations, MSU Drop Pods, Fragiosos, etc... are still light years beyond what those poor, poor CSM's get!

Guards with lots of vehicles should be easy to bust.
You don't need to proxy marines for that.You need to bring melta guns, and close combat weapons like melta bombz and powerfists.

The other thing is that you seem to like elitist close combat builds that are cool but kinda easy to shoot. While still skipping on good equipment.

I gave up on my BA a while ago in favour of a mechanised IG army. In terms of competitiveness, I fell victim to fielding a rather fluffy BA list without the likes of grave bikers or running MSUs. The idea of running dual CADs an further maxing out the Elites and Fast Attack slots is making me want to revisit the army every now and again.

BA are not light years beyond CSM for a variety of reasons.

I don't think biomancy or santic demonology are good disciplines for BA. Sanguinius or divination are better.

Equip 5 man scouts with melta bomb for lulz.

There's lots of things that BA grav bikers can't "nuke". Divination helps here.

I don't think combi-weapons on sternguard are a good deal anymore. I'd take enough melta to get by.

In general, MSU is the thing to do with BA. The exact details are up for debate. Arguably, since MSU gets less out of librarian buffs in general, you are better off not using librarians. Especially with no conclave formation.

Thanks for all of the advice. I really am considering playing with bikes. So is grav better or melta on them? I also was thinking of doing a baal pred with the flame weapon to be used as more of a aggressive shield for other units so that way something like DC can get in easy. Those are the only real ideas I have atm.

If you want to actually be good at tournaments your only real option is unfortenately to shelf your BA and pick up a different army until the BA get a better codex again. The current BA codex is one of the worst in the game, along with CSM and Orks. If you want to be competitive at a tournament, you should pick up regular SM, Eldar, Tau, Necrons, Daemons or Renegades instead. You could also try converting your 40k BA into 30k BA.
However if you are like me and don't want to give up on your BA, there is a lot of good advice in this thread. Winning games with BA is not impossible, even against Eldar or Tau, but don't expect to become a tournament champion
These are hard times for the Sons of Sanguinius.

The Baal Predator with the Flamer is a suicide unit. Because of its short range anything you fail to kill will be in charge range of you.

 Lucumon wrote:
I am in a similar boat... so I did two things:

1. Since I've been in the hobby since 1997, I started playing a Red Marine GSF. It took my 2 losses for every win to winning more than losing.

2. I play an Eldar Scatterbike list when people ask me to be competitive. It's like pushing the easy button... and I feel like I am cheating.

Well, at least you feel guilty. But, nothing will change unless you stop playing that army.

Guys take a look at his list. He isn't asking to beat top notch tournament players. This is not a 1445 points tournament lists. He is just wanting to now how to kill casual tank guards and casual tau with BA and he should be able to to so with just a few tweaks in his army. Really tank guards don't require you to go into full competitive mode at all. There might even be room for the cool units he likes if we just fix the rest of his list a bit.

His current list : 1445 ( points)
HQ: Priest jump pack no extra close combat weapons
Elite: 9 man Death company + Drop pod no extra close combat weapons.
5 man Sanguary guards jump packs, 2x axe

Troops.
5 scounts cammo,sarg, pistols + close combat weapons
10 man tac squad, flamer, missile louncher, drop pod vet sarg powersword

Fast
Landspeader dual multi melta
Landspeader dual multi melta

Heavy
Vindicator, dozerblade, extra armour, charged engines

LoW
Seth

@oldzoggy

I can see how you'd think that by looking at his list. If you re-read his original post, however, he's looking for advice on how to be more competitive with his Blood Angels after feeling outclassed at a recent tournament. I'm not sure any of the responses thus far have really led him astray from his goal of fielding a more capable army on the table-top.

Yeah the main problem I was having was the fact of how hard it was to adpat to circumstances and not have my army get steamed. I am casual and don't seek to be the very best, just want to be able to stay more compeitive. Tbh tho, I am really thinking that I may just move fully to 30k and play Alpha Legion. Its just really hard for me to part with what I have right now because I don't know if I can make back enough on them to make it worth it. If I keep them then I have this meh army on my shelf as I slowly struggle to get into 30k. I dunno.

I REALLY appreciate all you guys replying and discussing with me it has helped. I also know people were mentioning Seth, the reason he is there is because they painted up as Flesh Tearers and I tried to do fluff theme that would stay competitive. I learned hard way.

Your problem isn't seth, it is the sum of over costed things that are unable to kill the things you face. Change that and you will stand a chance.

Just imagine that I fielded a mechanized ork list perhaps even an ork walker list. Your only way to hurt it would be the 2 Av10 skimmers resulting in a horrible loss.

Same thing for monsters, death company would be great to kill them but they can't hurt a T8 thing with S4 swords alone. Any monster heavy list such as tau big suits but even tyranids will be really challenging for this list.

There is a huge gab between where you are now and the high power tournament lists. You can keep seth just try to add more survivability or bodies and some good anti monster / tank weapons and you should be fine. Seth is only 155 points sure that is a bit costly but it isn't that bad to lose ~30-50 points of efficiency for a cool character at 1500 points.

I played against a GSF of Blood Angels at a tournament in January. Basically, he used the SM codex, but with BA models.