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2016/03/13 00:55:45
Subject: Re:I still feel depressed about WFB ending
I think a lot of people poo-pooing the Old World as being too small really have no sense of scale. By all rights, the Great Forest of the Empire would be the size of most of the center of Europe, taking weeks to cross on foot or horseback.
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
Let's be real: The Old World was effectively infinite in size and nothing mattered anyways.
The Chaos Wastes were described as being infinite (in at least one thing I've read - can't remember what it is off the top of my head, though), and even they weren't there was nothing stopping the writers from adding island after island, continent after continent to the unexplored space.
As far as battles having any meaning... it was pretty much written on the wall that Chaos was an unbeatable force and that given enough time, the good guys would lose. It didn't matter whether Middenheim fell at any point, because Middenheim will fall eventually. Because Chaos is infinite and undefeatable. Just like it doesn't matter if the Stormcast Eternals claim the Bloodforge in the Skull Plains of Archioch or whatever.
The status quo hasn't changed at all. The only thing that was lost was the breadth of background available to the Old World, which given enough time, AoS will have as well.
Rihgu wrote: Let's be real: The Old World was effectively infinite in size and nothing mattered anyways.
Err.... No. And to say this you are clearly VERY misinformed about the size of the Old World or are just trying to be snide - the fact that it could be and was ended means that it was very, very finite.
Saying it openly that there are infinite realms of every is a completely different thing altogether, since there can be multiple copies of everything made out of everything. By definiton, you can an have an Archaon made entirely of jelly battling a Sigmar made of cheese somewhere out there.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/03/14 13:27:28
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
Rihgu wrote: Let's be real: The Old World was effectively infinite in size and nothing mattered anyways.
The Chaos Wastes were described as being infinite (in at least one thing I've read - can't remember what it is off the top of my head, though), and even they weren't there was nothing stopping the writers from adding island after island, continent after continent to the unexplored space.
...except for the map of the world showing the continents and basic layout :p Small islands, sure, those could crop up, but overall the world was shaped quite a lot like Earth, except for Ulthuan.
And you might be confusing the Wastes with the Realm of Chaos, there - sooner or later, the Chaos Wastes ended, and that's where things got REALLY bad.
I'll rescind my statement about the map being infinite in size. I thought I remembered seeing the world map in the BRB or maybe at the local store and there being quite a bit of "HERE THERE BE DRAGONS", especially around the edges. Googling it (something I should have done first ) has revealed that the world is a pretty set size (whatever that size is).
However, I still very clearly remember a short passage, perhaps from the End Times: Nagash? I'll try to find it next time I'm near my copy... which said something to the effect of: the Chaos Wastes being infinite (or near infinite) in size and that countless tribes wandered them, with cities and empires rising and falling constantly. The cities and empires rising and falling bit is what stands out the most in the memory, so I'm hoping somebody else recognizes it?
It was infinite in the sense that GW could have explored more and more of it in greater detail to reveal new things or even changed the way the world looked if they wanted to. There were things of great enough magic to change the continents, wipe out races, reveal new races. Even without changing it, they also only explored in detail about half the land mass of the world that actually did exist .
AllSeeingSkink wrote: It was infinite in the sense that GW could have explored more and more of it in greater detail to reveal new things or even changed the way the world looked if they wanted to. There were things of great enough magic to change the continents, wipe out races, reveal new races. Even without changing it, they also only explored in detail about half the land mass of the world that actually did exist .
Pretty much. Who remembers the Albion campaign? A new place revealed/explored that expanded the setting and added background in a non-intrusive way. And it wasn't long before that where Lustria was revealed in detail with the first Lizardmen army book. Then a decade later the East was further explored with Ogre Kingdoms.
GW had plenty to explore. What did we truly know about Araby, Estalia, Cathay, Nippon, Ind, the Dragon Isles, Desolation of Nagash, the old Strygos Empire, the Southlands, and so on? People who say the Old World was boring and played out only look at a fraction of the map when they say these things.
Rihgu wrote: I'll rescind my statement about the map being infinite in size. I thought I remembered seeing the world map in the BRB or maybe at the local store and there being quite a bit of "HERE THERE BE DRAGONS", especially around the edges. Googling it (something I should have done first ) has revealed that the world is a pretty set size (whatever that size is).
However, I still very clearly remember a short passage, perhaps from the End Times: Nagash? I'll try to find it next time I'm near my copy... which said something to the effect of: the Chaos Wastes being infinite (or near infinite) in size and that countless tribes wandered them, with cities and empires rising and falling constantly. The cities and empires rising and falling bit is what stands out the most in the memory, so I'm hoping somebody else recognizes it?
I remember that tidbit from W:AR. And, to be honest, the Chaos Wastes really are infinite... it's just that at some point they stop being the Old World's Chaos Wastes and become.... something else
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/03/15 09:37:57
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
AllSeeingSkink wrote: It was infinite in the sense that GW could have explored more and more of it in greater detail to reveal new things or even changed the way the world looked if they wanted to. There were things of great enough magic to change the continents, wipe out races, reveal new races. Even without changing it, they also only explored in detail about half the land mass of the world that actually did exist .
Pretty much. Who remembers the Albion campaign? A new place revealed/explored that expanded the setting and added background in a non-intrusive way. And it wasn't long before that where Lustria was revealed in detail with the first Lizardmen army book. Then a decade later the East was further explored with Ogre Kingdoms.
GW had plenty to explore. What did we truly know about Araby, Estalia, Cathay, Nippon, Ind, the Dragon Isles, Desolation of Nagash, the old Strygos Empire, the Southlands, and so on? People who say the Old World was boring and played out only look at a fraction of the map when they say these things.
Indeed, it was GW's choice to both not explore the world they created nor develop the storyline. There could have been all manner of things in the unexplored parts of the world, which was most of the world.
Stories end, get over it.
The Old World did not generate enough interest/money to maintain it, it had a LONG run, but it had reached the end of it's story/buisness life span.
2016/03/16 13:12:43
Subject: Re:I still feel depressed about WFB ending
Stories end, get over it.
The Old World did not generate enough interest/money to maintain it, it had a LONG run, but it had reached the end of it's story/buisness life span.
The setting reached the end of its lifecycle or the system did? As others have pointed out, lot of mileage left in that setting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/16 13:12:53
2016/03/16 13:25:33
Subject: Re:I still feel depressed about WFB ending
Stories end, get over it.
The Old World did not generate enough interest/money to maintain it, it had a LONG run, but it had reached the end of it's story/buisness life span.
The setting reached the end of its lifecycle or the system did? As others have pointed out, lot of mileage left in that setting.
Settings are just a medium to what should happen there. Anyone can come up with something they could have done in The Old World, would a significant number of people stay (or become and stay) interested while GW dug up and explored every bit?
Similar to: how many people found EVERY location and quest in Skyrim before they got over it and played something else?
2016/03/16 13:41:49
Subject: Re:I still feel depressed about WFB ending
Stories end, get over it.
The Old World did not generate enough interest/money to maintain it, it had a LONG run, but it had reached the end of it's story/buisness life span.
The setting reached the end of its lifecycle or the system did? As others have pointed out, lot of mileage left in that setting.
Settings are just a medium to what should happen there. Anyone can come up with something they could have done in The Old World, would a significant number of people stay (or become and stay) interested while GW dug up and explored every bit?
Similar to: how many people found EVERY location and quest in Skyrim before they got over it and played something else?
You're comparing apples to oranges there.
Ignoring beforehand the fact that you're comparing a game that also serves as a hobby and that has a billion hours more of time and cash investment (not to say emotional investment) than a computer game, you should use the entirety of the Tamriel Setting - along with all the games that spawned from it - not Skyrim alone, for that comparison. You're pretty much saying "How long would you get bored after playing x or Y edition" or "how long would you get bored of playing with X or Y army."
E.g: Bethesda switched genres a bit with ESO, but didn't torch the entire setting to do so.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/03/16 13:43:49
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
Stories end, get over it.
The Old World did not generate enough interest/money to maintain it, it had a LONG run, but it had reached the end of it's story/buisness life span.
The setting reached the end of its lifecycle or the system did? As others have pointed out, lot of mileage left in that setting.
Settings are just a medium to what should happen there. Anyone can come up with something they could have done in The Old World, would a significant number of people stay (or become and stay) interested while GW dug up and explored every bit?
Similar to: how many people found EVERY location and quest in Skyrim before they got over it and played something else?
You're comparing apples to oranges there.
Ignoring beforehand the fact that you're comparing a game that also serves as a hobby and that has a billion hours more of time and cash investment (not to say emotional investment) than a computer game, you should use the entirety of the Tamriel Setting - along with all the games that spawned from it - not Skyrim alone, for that comparison. You're pretty much saying "How long would you get bored after playing x or Y edition" or "how long would you get bored of playing with X or Y army."
E.g: Bethesda switched genres a bit with ESO, but didn't torch the entire setting to do so.
Hence the "similar to", but fine:
Do you think a profitable amount of people would stay interested while every possibility of *insert example of large setting for immersive form of entertainment* is explored.
2016/03/16 17:16:01
Subject: Re:I still feel depressed about WFB ending
Stories end, get over it.
The Old World did not generate enough interest/money to maintain it, it had a LONG run, but it had reached the end of it's story/buisness life span.
The setting reached the end of its lifecycle or the system did? As others have pointed out, lot of mileage left in that setting.
Settings are just a medium to what should happen there. Anyone can come up with something they could have done in The Old World, would a significant number of people stay (or become and stay) interested while GW dug up and explored every bit?
Similar to: how many people found EVERY location and quest in Skyrim before they got over it and played something else?
You're comparing apples to oranges there.
Ignoring beforehand the fact that you're comparing a game that also serves as a hobby and that has a billion hours more of time and cash investment (not to say emotional investment) than a computer game, you should use the entirety of the Tamriel Setting - along with all the games that spawned from it - not Skyrim alone, for that comparison. You're pretty much saying "How long would you get bored after playing x or Y edition" or "how long would you get bored of playing with X or Y army."
E.g: Bethesda switched genres a bit with ESO, but didn't torch the entire setting to do so.
Hence the "similar to", but fine:
Do you think a profitable amount of people would stay interested while every possibility of *insert example of large setting for immersive form of entertainment* is explored.
It still isn't similar, but I won't dwell on that point.
As Fenrir so kindly put forth already, the issues conspiring against FB were not coming from the setting itself, but from the rules system. Look at Mordheim - it's "dead" (aka, GW ditched it) and yet there's a thriving community playing. Look at the Warhammer RPG. At Bloodbowl. They all come from the Old World.
Actually, the Old World gathered so little interest that Total War: Warhammer is actually coming out - not a mod, mind you, but a full fledged game. This year. For Creative Assembly to pick it up, I think it would have to have a "profitable amount of people interested" in it.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2016/03/16 17:24:39
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
2016/03/16 17:29:11
Subject: Re:I still feel depressed about WFB ending
Do you think a profitable amount of people would stay interested while every possibility of *insert example of large setting for immersive form of entertainment* is explored.
I dunno, ask George Lucas.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/16 17:29:22
2016/03/16 18:52:45
Subject: Re:I still feel depressed about WFB ending
With a new setting they can finally do for fantasy what has been so successful for 40k and have an infinite space for fiction. They can go back and create new parts of the realms and BL authors have a big sandbox this time. As the authors have said with Fantasy there was a limited amount of narrative possibilities unless you opened up pocket dimensions or. chaos realms. BL was able to go back in time and do time of legends but until they decided to let the timeline advance it just writes itself into a corner. I wish we saw more from the Cathay, Araby , Nippon, etc but still . This is a great move for the BL coverage even though they face the challenge of starting everything over, and for many, in contrast to the world that was.
co-host weekly wargaming podcast Combat Phase
on iTunes or www.combatphase.com
2016/03/16 21:33:20
Subject: Re:I still feel depressed about WFB ending
VeteranNoob wrote: With a new setting they can finally do for fantasy what has been so successful for 40k and have an infinite space for fiction. They can go back and create new parts of the realms and BL authors have a big sandbox this time. As the authors have said with Fantasy there was a limited amount of narrative possibilities unless you opened up pocket dimensions or. chaos realms. BL was able to go back in time and do time of legends but until they decided to let the timeline advance it just writes itself into a corner. I wish we saw more from the Cathay, Araby , Nippon, etc but still . This is a great move for the BL coverage even though they face the challenge of starting everything over, and for many, in contrast to the world that was.
So, in one sentence it's essentially "the old world was filled up, there was nothing left to explore", in another it's "I wish they would have explored all those areas we barely heard anything about".
It can't really be both, can it?
2016/03/17 04:58:05
Subject: Re:I still feel depressed about WFB ending
Stories end, get over it.
The Old World did not generate enough interest/money to maintain it, it had a LONG run, but it had reached the end of it's story/buisness life span.
Even if I agreed with this, which I don't, Necromunda (the game) stopped being supported, without blowing up Necromunda (the world). Mordheim stopped being supported, without GW obliterating the ruins of the city in a second catastrophe. I could go on and on.
It's one thing to decide that a setting is tapped out for financial purposes, but another to decide to destroy, systematically, the entire setting. You can (and GW has, repeatedly) done one without doing the other.
What makes it worse, for me, is that AoS is supposedly set thousands of years later in a much larger, conjoined series of planes of existence, and you still have Sigmar and Nagash and Archaon and slayers and lizardmen and all the same bloody stuff. If you're going to make a dramatic break from the old--especially when you destroy the old and sent it into the dark reaches of time---the new stuff should be dramatically different. Otherwise, why did you bother?
Because people would complain just as badly about new stuff as they would about there being no new stuff?
It's in a transition, though. The old stuff is slowly being replaced with new things and stuff that fits the new setting is being changed.
I do deeply miss the old world and wished they did continue it but what's done is done. I find it best to embrace the new and look to a brighter horizon rather than go into a corner and sulk.
Another thing to consider is that people like mystery and enjoy the corners of a map remaining unfilled or myths and theories to go unsolved. When the wood elf book was released the woodies got a bit upset that GW mapped out the Athel Loren forest and had most of their personal fluff and theories thrown out the door.
If mythical Cathay, Nippon and Ind got mapped out completely and all fan speculation died down because all the questions had been anwsered then it would certainly lose it's magic of the unknown.
Baron Klatz wrote: Because people would complain just as badly about new stuff as they would about there being no new stuff?
It's in a transition, though. The old stuff is slowly being replaced with new things and stuff that fits the new setting is being changed.
I do deeply miss the old world and wished they did continue it but what's done is done. I find it best to embrace the new and look to a brighter horizon rather than go into a corner and sulk.
Another thing to consider is that people like mystery and enjoy the corners of a map remaining unfilled or myths and theories to go unsolved. When the wood elf book was released the woodies got a bit upset that GW mapped out the Athel Loren forest and had most of their personal fluff and theories thrown out the door.
If mythical Cathay, Nippon and Ind got mapped out completely and all fan speculation died down because all the questions had been anwsered then it would certainly lose it's magic of the unknown.
You're forgetting that a good quantity of the players wantedGW to actually explore Ind, Cathay and Nippon, from what I gathered over the years.
And there is always a third option to the "take it or sulk on it" statement you made - keep playing in the setting. Use either a previous WB edition, go to KoW or embrace the 9th Age. I know for a fact that I'm going to keep on working on my Asur well through this year and the majority of the next, be it in fluff or modelling wise.
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
2016/03/17 10:01:32
Subject: Re:I still feel depressed about WFB ending
One can also play in the old world setting and use the Age of Sigmar Rules. The warscrolls are there so you can do whatever you like.
I also had plenty of fluff for a handfull of characters and backstories I had created for varius campaigns I had participated with my High Elves but I liked the fact that the fluff progressed with the End Times and now with Age of Sigmar. Now mind you I don't like everything new or all the changes but we can't have everything.
In my opinion the new realms open endless possibilities for one to create their fluff backstory and play their own narrative campaigns. And again in the end if you find people with similar tastes you can always keep playing in the old world...
2016/03/17 12:44:25
Subject: Re:I still feel depressed about WFB ending
Warhammer fantasy was my introduction into the tabletop gaming world. I still remember the first two armies I say - Brettonia vs Orcs and Goblins. Over the years (20 to be exact), my gaming group and I have moved through every game GW introduced, but I always had an emotional connection to fantasy because it started it all. I can only speak for myself, but I had been prepared for the death of the fantasy world for quite some time before it actually happened. I watched the number of people playing it dwindle until it got to the point where people came up in amazement to see what the "new" game was that my friends and I were playing, since the average war gamer had never seen it. When I heard about End Times, I thought it had a lot of potential. I was excited at the prospect of exiled humans and dwarves to form a new society somewhere, perhaps even in Lustria or in the east near Cathay...not destroy it all, especially not when they are about to release Warhammer Total War.
I am not opposed to AoS, and I do think a dramatic change was necessary in game mechanics and fluff, as Warhammer Fantasy was on life support. However, I think End Times could have been an intriguing setting for the game that would have been moderately successful for a 2 year stretch. Then they could have gradually broke down the old world and introduced AoS. I probably would have (and I would venture to guess a fair number of other players too) been more receptive to the fluff change. As it stands, it felt like a big FU to all the loyal players that had made GW what it is today, and it has instilled a sense of unease in GW games now, since we never know when the next game will be "AoS'ered". I will be intrigued to see how AoS develops, even if the setting is not my cup of tea. I will probably check out KoW as a rule set for future gaming, though there model line has really become quite interesting too.
Active armies, still collecting and painting First and greatest love - Orks, Orks, and more Orks largest pile of shame, so many tanks unassembled most complete and painted beautiful models, couldn't resist the swarm will consume all
Armies in disrepair: nothing new since 5th edition oh how I want to revive, but mostly old fantasy demons and some glorious Soul Grinders in need of love
2016/03/17 13:54:00
Subject: Re:I still feel depressed about WFB ending
VeteranNoob wrote: With a new setting they can finally do for fantasy what has been so successful for 40k and have an infinite space for fiction. They can go back and create new parts of the realms and BL authors have a big sandbox this time. As the authors have said with Fantasy there was a limited amount of narrative possibilities unless you opened up pocket dimensions or. chaos realms. BL was able to go back in time and do time of legends but until they decided to let the timeline advance it just writes itself into a corner. I wish we saw more from the Cathay, Araby , Nippon, etc but still . This is a great move for the BL coverage even though they face the challenge of starting everything over, and for many, in contrast to the world that was.
So, in one sentence it's essentially "the old world was filled up, there was nothing left to explore", in another it's "I wish they would have explored all those areas we barely heard anything about".
It can't really be both, can it?
I think I know what you are saying so sorry if I have this wrong. The setting was constrained by its size and borders, even though some of those areas we have barely heard anything about still provide a potential for coverage. For example Graham McNeill and I talked about WHFB & 40K where in 40K you can just create a new planet since the gaming universe is not completely mapped out like WHFB is.
co-host weekly wargaming podcast Combat Phase
on iTunes or www.combatphase.com
2016/03/17 13:57:02
Subject: Re:I still feel depressed about WFB ending
Grumblewartz wrote: . As it stands, it felt like a big FU to all the loyal players that had made GW what it is today, and it has instilled a sense of unease in GW games now, since we never know when the next game will be "AoS'ered".
They only have one other game. And its time is coming.
) has revealed that the world is a pretty set size (whatever that size is).
largest pile of shame, so many tanks unassembled 
beautiful models, couldn't resist 
the swarm will consume all
nothing new since 5th edition 
oh how I want to revive, but mostly old fantasy demons and some glorious Soul Grinders 
in need of love 