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Which army do you think is the least competitive currently

The squats.

Nah but in all seriousness it's probably just the lowest tier armies, such as chaos, orks, nids, etc. In all truth, "competitive" is just another word for "high tier."

But what would you say would be the worst of the worst

I'm gonna say Blood Angels, Orks or non- Coven Dark Eldar.

Probably codex Legion of the Damned or pure Scions codex.

Not counting books that I don't consider real codexes such as Harlequins, Admech, LOTD, Scions, etc.... I would say Orks purely because they can't ally in something as a BB. Other bottom level codexes can at least bring in some friends.

Probably Orks.

CSM if you don't want to bring in Forgeworld or allies that basically are better and would manage fine without the poor CSM tagging along.

Chaos Marines.

Even Orks & Tyranids at least have 1 cookie-cutter build that can drag them up to the upper middle tables at a Tournament.

Chaos Marines on the other hand have nothing. Literally, you make your list more competitive by never taking anything beyond a pair of Sorcerers, 2x 10 token Cultists, and perhaps a Helturkey/Oblits.
Then you fill out your actual list with Daemons and/or IA:13 stuff!

You don't get much more pathetic than that.

1 Succubus
60 Fully Upgraded Wytches
30 Mandrakes

--

Edit : Normally I would say something like 'grots', but I'm looking here for the stuff that is actually slightly expensive but complete garbage -- like warp talons.

Owning both Dark Eldar and Orks, it's difficult to decide which of my armies sucks the most in this edition with their utterly gak army books.

Probably Orks, after all those years and editions surviving on the once great Kelly book, to then get almost universal nerfs and that... that mob rule change... that fething affront.

Yeah, I can do things with my Dark Eldar, my orks just break my heart these days. And I used to break face with them, a lot.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Chaos Marines.

Even Orks & Tyranids at least have 1 cookie-cutter build that can drag them up to the upper middle tables at a Tournament.

Chaos Marines on the other hand have nothing. Literally, you make your list more competitive by never taking anything beyond a pair of Sorcerers, 2x 10 token Cultists, and perhaps a Helturkey/Oblits.
Then you fill out your actual list with Daemons and/or IA:13 stuff!

You don't get much more pathetic than that.

I completely agree with this. Non-FW CSM is just laughably bad, despite two poor attempts at giving them supplements (Crimson Slaughter/Black Legion) and some dataslates. The only good thing has been Be'Lakor.

On their own as an army? With no allies?

Militarum Tempestus.

After that? Probably Harlequins and CSM's.

 labmouse42 wrote:
1 Succubus
60 Fully Upgraded Wytches
30 Mandrakes

--

Edit : Normally I would say something like 'grots', but I'm looking here for the stuff that is actually slightly expensive but complete garbage -- like warp talons.

Actually, I've had pretty good luck with mandrakes. There isn't quite as much ignores cover running around as there used to be, so I find these guys to be a relatively cheap 2+ cover save that can fling surprisingly effective fireballs at people. Any damage they do is a bonus, but they're a relatively safe unit to start on the board while I wait for my reinforcements to come in from reserves.

With no allies at all, I'd probably say that CSM are the weakest, option. That said, they do have a few half-decent options (spell familiar daemon summoning, black mace prince, hell turkey) that can be surprisingly effective against certain options popular in the meta. My harlequins are a blast to use mostly by themselves, but they're also very prone to extremely bad games. I feel like harlequins are the easiest of my armies for my opponent to pick apart and nullify.

Dark eldar for sure. Maybe a solo ratling army?

I assume no allies, no FW add-ons and only "full" armies. Scions, Harlies, LotD, etc are "spin-off" armies and clearly meant to be played alongside other armies

Dark Eldar have cheap, fast units and can provide tons of shots. They are easily better that CSM (given the above conditions). Once you do consider allies, DE definitely pull ahead. The DE codex has loads of "missed" oppotunites (WTF can't an HQ take a jetbike?), but overall it has good options. CSM have fewer good options

I would say Orks and CSM are about tied, although I would say CSM have a slight advantage if you consider allies.
Nids are actually mid-tier. As long as you are a decent player and have access to all the Nid rules form about a dozen different sources, you can make some pretty decent lists that can easily go toe-toe with an average Eldar list (read "average", not super tourney, cut-throat). CSM, DE nor Orks can make this claim.

Overall, I'd say Orks may be the least competitive, followed closely by CSM.

Militarum Tempestus. If you want a standard codex CSM for sure, if you look at deep cuts then stuff like Tyrants Legion probably win.

CSM are pretty bad without FW or allies. Codex can't be that competitive on it's own

Worst is LotD no Allies.

With Allies, you're probably looking at Orks.

I would say Tyranids. They have, basically, 1 build that makes them competitive, which is fairly easy for most other armies to tailor against.

Put those Flyrants down against their hard counter? Game over. Unless the non-Tyranid general rolls absolutely abysmally the entire game, the Nids don't stand a chance.

 Psienesis wrote:
I would say Tyranids. They have, basically, 1 build that makes them competitive, which is fairly easy for most other armies to tailor against.

Put those Flyrants down against their hard counter? Game over. Unless the non-Tyranid general rolls absolutely abysmally the entire game, the Nids don't stand a chance.

I play Nids and CSM and that 1 cookie cutter build with the bugs trumps anything you can build out of the CSM book.....Nids are awful, but CSM are just that much worse

 Galef wrote:
I assume no allies, no FW add-ons and only "full" armies. Scions, Harlies, LotD, etc are "spin-off" armies and clearly meant to be played alongside other armies

Dark Eldar have cheap, fast units and can provide tons of shots. They are easily better that CSM (given the above conditions). Once you do consider allies, DE definitely pull ahead. The DE codex has loads of "missed" oppotunites (WTF can't an HQ take a jetbike?), but overall it has good options. CSM have fewer good options

I would say Orks and CSM are about tied, although I would say CSM have a slight advantage if you consider allies.
Nids are actually mid-tier. As long as you are a decent player and have access to all the Nid rules form about a dozen different sources, you can make some pretty decent lists that can easily go toe-toe with an average Eldar list (read "average", not super tourney, cut-throat). CSM, DE nor Orks can make this claim.

Overall, I'd say Orks may be the least competitive, followed closely by CSM.

DE may be able to put out fast units that are cheap, but not that great killing power unless against monstrous creatures. Their good units are only good if they are taken as a taxi for regular eldar, on there own not much. In a battle with no allies I think that CSM would pull out basically because of psychic and helldrake.

I'd put DE at bottom, then CSM then orks.

We orks got it fairly bad but I feel more sorry for Dark Eldar, CSM, and BA. I think we got more build options then nids but their flyrants are pretty good.

Mono CSM. Codex Helchicken.

Tyrant's Legion, hands down. Has possibly the worst unit in the entire game, corpse taker apothacaries. Look 'em up.

Its a tie between Blood Angels and CSM. Orks are actually not complete gak in Maelstrom Tournies as our bikes are still decent and we actually have formations that dont completely suck.(im referring to the Bullyboyz, Mogroks Bossboyz and the Blitz Brigade), as well as a few spiffy Relics. Now, that does take multiple sources, but none are FW.

Dark Eldar are worse off as their best list is Corpsethief Claw supported by the Beasttamer Zoo, but they are still functional, and again in Maelstrom, they are actually decent, cuz fast moving Ob Sec is great.

Now to the other two. Blood Angels are SM 0.5. Their Scouts are awful, their Dreds are even worse than the nilla ones and they have no formations worth talking about. Their saving graces are Death Company, Dante, Mephiston, Sanguinary Priests, tons of Flamers, and Flesh Tearers Taxi Service. So while these things combine to make a semi functional Drop Pod army, Sisters of Battle do it better, and cheaper, with an allied Taxi Service.

CSM have, Chaos Lords (still decent at being a beatstick), Sorcerer Lords, Helturkies (which are still very nice), Plague Marines, Chosen for Special Weapons, one of the Fiends (cant remember if its the Forge or Mauler that doesnt suck), Oblits, and 3 man Termi Squads (laugh all you want these still get the job done). I guess having 3 Plasma weapons in a 10 man CSM squad could count as a boon, but thats kinda iffy.

With all of this taken into account, and no allies, id say its CSm by a nose, followed closely by Blood Angels with Orks and Dark Eldar on the high end of Low Tier as they actually can fight in a tournament scene.

Obviously im not taking into account the Mini-Dexes, even though some of them can actually function OK on their own.

That siege marine list, https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Siege_Assault_Vanguard_Army_List_Update.pdf
I don't think that it is still a supported army but this only makes it less competitive ; )


I love this designer note about their special rule.

You may have just read the previous rule and said to yourself “But that’s unfair!” and you would be right, in essence.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Outside that.

Mono harlequins & mono inquisitors

Followed by Orks CSM Tyranids and DE. Butt only if you ignore their supplements including fw. If you include those CSM, DE and Tyranids suddenly rise way above orks.

if you include battle brothers Inquisitors, harlequins, and DE become really nasty.

If they count you can't argue against it being LOTD.

Yeah not counting those, for obvious reasons.
But they might be kinda competitive if you ally them. deepstrike Ignore cover melta is quite good.

 oldzoggy wrote:
That siege marine list, https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Siege_Assault_Vanguard_Army_List_Update.pdf
I don't think that it is still a supported army but this only makes it less competitive ; )


I love this designer note about their special rule.

You may have just read the previous rule and said to yourself “But that’s unfair!” and you would be right, in essence.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Outside that.

Mono harlequins & mono inquisitors

Followed by Orks CSM Tyranids and DE. Butt only if you ignore their supplements including fw. If you include those CSM, DE and Tyranids suddenly rise way above orks.

if you include battle brothers Inquisitors, harlequins, and DE become really nasty.

The question though is, "what's the least competitive army?"
Typically that implies which individual book is the worst, on it's own, sans allies as that completely skews the individual results.

Discounting those 'codices' which really aren't armies to begin with, (ie: Tempetus, LotD, Clowns, =I=, etc...), then Chaos Marines are by far and away the single worst army.

Orks have a few tricks up their sleeves. Not many, but staying 100% within just the parent codex, Orks can play Maelstrom decently enough.

Chaos Marines on the other hand are literally outdone by at half the game's armies in absolutely everything they can possibly do...
No weight of fire ability, almost as slow as IG, no assault delivery system, no Deathstar capabilities, supposedly 'beatstick' HQ's that get their faces beaten in by most other dedicated close combat HQ's, 0 Deep Strike mitigation, 0 built-in synergies, 3rd/4th edition play styles built on 5th ed pricing schemes...

And what few decent units they do have, others inevitably have far superior versions of!
- Beatstick Jugger Lords? Thunderwolf Lords own the snot out of them...
- Oblits? Gravcents make them weep...
- Possessed? CC-kited Chosen? MoK Termies? Mutilators? Wulfen, Vanguard Vets, Sternguard say hello...
- Bikes? Loyalists get grav + Apothecaries for far cheaper FnP and Chaplains for Zealot...
- Helturkey? Isn't obnoxious anymore, and is semi-countered anyways due to the prevalence of extreme MSU in the game now.
And combined with a model line that's only 10+ years behind the times, ensuring that no amount of FAQ's/formation 'patches' can even hope to begin fixing their many woes.

Chaos Marines are still the only army in the game that get worse when you include the vast majority of their own bread & butter units!