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Sometimes you just get a rough match up and as that list is mostly just bolters and missile launchers you'll probably meet the rock to your scissors quite a lot. An Avatar of Khaine, Wraithlords and Wave Serpent would be hard for you to deal with as well I would think. Sadly this game costs money if you want to be able to diversify your list and increase your chances of winning, that's just how it is. You could try talking with him again when you aren't having a battle and explaining your situation and what you want out of the game but if your desires are too far apart and you can't meet each other half way then try playing other people.

 Blacksails wrote:
Sounds like you just want to win without having to change anything about your list.

Not what I said. Not what I even halfway implied.

Traditio wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Sounds like you just want to win without having to change anything about your list.

Not what I said. Not what I even halfway implied.

Then why do you not try to implement some of the suggestions that people have said towards making your list more optimal? You don't even have to necessarily buy new things right off the bat, just proxy whatever is needed and let your opponent or friend know beforehand and ask if its alright. It really doesn't take that much effort to try and work around sub-optimal lists, even with monetary/model limitations as long as you communicate with your opponent and meet them halfway.

Grimskul wrote:Then why do you not try to implement some of the suggestions that people have said towards making your list more optimal? You don't even have to necessarily buy new things right off the bat, just proxy whatever is needed and let your opponent or friend know beforehand and ask if its alright. It really doesn't take that much effort to try and work around sub-optimal lists, even with monetary/model limitations as long as you communicate with your opponent and meet them halfway.

You are misunderstanding my answer to black sails. I don't expect to win (in effect, to obtain victories more than half the time or easily) without changing my list, independently of player skill, tactics, positioning, etc.

With or without changing my list, that's simply not the desideratum for me.

It's not the fact that I lost that annoys me. It's the fact that he specifically spammed marine killing pie plates, knowing in advance what I was bringing to the table, and in spite of being able to obtain victory without the crutch.

Traditio wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Sounds like you just want to win without having to change anything about your list.

Not what I said. Not what I even halfway implied.

You may not think you're implying it, but you haven't indicated any willingness to adjust your own list to be more competitive.

In other words, you need to compromise. If you're dictating to your opponent what they can and can't bring, expect your opponent to be able to do the same to you.

 Blacksails wrote:
You may not think you're implying it, but you haven't indicated any willingness to adjust your own list to be more competitive.

The dichotomy that you are implicitly putting into play with this kind of answer only presupposes the "anti-scrub" mentality with which I take issue in the OP.

So basically you wanted to take a list with zero capabilities of dealing with basically anything, completely inflight, and your opponent was nice enough to not only take no power units but also no tanks AT ALL, as well as pretty much all the worst units in his codex...

And you still lost, despite all you needing to do to win would be to sit in ruins, shoot the Wraithguard and GTG in ruins any time an eldar itch storm hit. Then, after you lost, you whined at your opponent because he brought stuff that could hurt your stuff instead of 100% units you counter.

Why are you posting this online? That's embarrassing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I'd like to point out your list is the definition of min-maxed.

Max: bolters

Min: everything else

Your friends list is a balanced TAC list, with a variety of units of multiple ranges, anti tank units, psychic support, close combat and anti infantry.

Traditio wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
You may not think you're implying it, but you haven't indicated any willingness to adjust your own list to be more competitive.

The dichotomy that you are implicitly putting into play with this kind of answer only presupposes the "anti-scrub" mentality with which I take issue in the OP.

And? So? Therefore?

You had an issue, I'm supplying a solution. If you happen to think it falls under some mentality you take issue with, then its up to you to make peace with that or continue to lose with sub-optimal lists. You simply can't dictate to others what they can and can't play, and as gakky as it is, sometimes the solution is to not play that person if a compromise can't be reached. No one is right or wrong in that scenario either.

the_scotsman wrote:
So basically you wanted to take a list with zero capabilities of dealing with basically anything, completely inflight, and your opponent was nice enough to not only take no power units but also no tanks AT ALL, as well as pretty much all the worst units in his codex...

Wraithguard, fire dragons and dark reapers are not the worst units in the Eldar codex.

Neither are dire avengers. In fact, dire avengers are on par with, if not superior in certain ways to, tactical marines with bolters.

And you still lost, despite all you needing to do to win would be to sit in ruins, shoot the Wraithguard and GTG in ruins any time an eldar itch storm hit. Then, after you lost, you whined at your opponent because he brought stuff that could hurt your stuff instead of 100% units you counter.

I'm pretty sure that dire avengers, wraithguard, rangers, etc. can hurt marines.

The fact that you are even trying to present things in this manner only presupposes the elitist, anti-scrub mentality with which I take issue in the OP.

Also, I'd like to point out your list is the definition of min-maxed.

Max: bolters

Min: everything else

That's not what "min-max" means.

1) Illic, Rangers, Banshees, Wraithblades, Wraithlords, Shining Spears and Dark Reapers are absolutely amount the worst units in the Eldar codex.

2) Min-Maxing quite literally means minimizing one thing in a game to take the maximum amount of another thing. It CAN mean minimizing the stuff that's not the best to take the max amount of the best stuff (eg spamming 2 min sized Scatbike squads and 1 warlock for the max number of WKs) but it can absolutely mean maximizing something else, and that's absolutely what you've done. What would you have done if your opponent had tanks? Nothing. What would you have done if he had MCs? Nothing. Your oponent has an answer to all those things because he built a balanced, non tailored TAC list, and with the lists spelled out you really haven't got anything to hide behind.

3) He did not "spam pie plates." His list has ONE pie plate-the Eldrich storm...which is a power he rolled for. He took a psychic unit, rolled powers, then used the best power he had rolled against his opponent. That's what you do with psykers. Beyond that he had a few AP2 flamer templates, a couple S4 ap3 small blasts, and some meltas.

the_scotsman wrote:
1) Illic, Rangers, Banshees, Wraithblades, Wraithlords, Shining Spears and Dark Reapers are absolutely amount the worst units in the Eldar codex.

What's so bad about dark reapers?

What would you have done if your opponent had tanks? Nothing.

Use my devastator squads, meltabombs, multimelta and Pedro/Chaplain/Captain/Honor Guard unit.

What would you have done if he had MCs?

Use hellfire sternguard rounds, meltabombs, devastator squads, plasma cannon, multimelta and, depending on the MC, the Pedro squad.

3) He did not "spam pie plates." His list has ONE pie plate-the Eldrich storm...which is a power he rolled for. He took a psychic unit, rolled powers, then used the best power he had rolled against his opponent. That's what you do with psykers. Beyond that he had a few AP2 flamer templates, a couple S4 ap3 small blasts, and some meltas.

Each tempest launcher was firing 3 S5, AP 3 small blasts per round, so long as units were in range.

Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:
If you can't use transports for every squad why are you bothering to use a Gladius? You could take a less restricted list instead.

It basically allows me to use all of the models that I actually own, with the exception of a few models, at an 1850 points level.

To significantly increase my power level would be a rather extensive monetary investment on my part.

1) You should try playing a lower point game.

2) Your opponent does not want to lower the power level of his army further, which leaves you with a few options options:

A) increase the power level of your army: this will require spending money, it's a reality of 40k. You can also either proxy or ask your opponent to borrow models

B) not play your opponent

C) accept that you have horrible matchups based on what you own and keep playing

Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:
If you can't use transports for every squad why are you bothering to use a Gladius? You could take a less restricted list instead.

It basically allows me to use all of the models that I actually own, with the exception of a few models, at an 1850 points level.

At any rate, the simple fact is that I have what I have, and my friend has what he has. He has the option to take weaker units (he has a rather extensive inventory of eldar units; he easily could use an avatar of khaine, wraithlords, wave serpents, etc.) and basically play at my power level. To significantly increase my power level would be a rather extensive monetary investment on my part.

That's basically what it comes down to.

And I asked him why he insisted on using both the seer council and the reapers. "Would you have lost?" "No, but it would have made things more difficult."

That annoys me. Again, refer to the OP.

If you are friends and playing friendly lists...you could proxy some special weapons or rhinos for razorbacks to try and be a tougher opponent.

Also why should your friend have to suffer and play with limited models because you do not have as much stuff as he does? Play a smaller point level maybe? Proxy some of your units....Try a CAD with skyhammer? There is plenty you can do with the models you have and a little creativity. I easily have over 6k points and my friends and I proxy things all the time to get a feel for different units, to try something new, play test things before we purchase them etc.

You have been repeatedly confronted by post after post and author after author accusing you of refusing to acknowledge the middle ground, and to compromise, and you still 3 pages into your thread have yet to take any blame after that rant. This will be my final post trying to shed light onto the topic you seem to clearly not grasp....I advise other people to stop responding as well. At this point it is as if arguing with a wall.

Unless the rules have changed on me tempest launchers are S4, AP3 Heavy 2. Those should cause a whopping 2 kills a shot if you spaced your guys correctly. You, by contrast, had 8 missile launchers that could one shot his Wraithguard-were you spamming S8 AP3 then? By your definition of spamming (>1 apparently) you were.

Ahhh, yes, of course. You weren't min-maxed at all, you had plenty of anti tank! Why, those missile launchers could handle an entire standard Eldar tank in only two full rounds of shooting given no casualties.

That is a gak list. Do you seriously only have 3 Rhinos and just flamers for special weapons?! Just missile launchers for heavies? You must not have bought a Marine box in 15 years. I'm tempted to mail you a spare plasma gun or 2...

the_scotsman wrote:
Unless the rules have changed on me tempest launchers are S4, AP3 Heavy 2. Those should cause a whopping 2 kills a shot if you spaced your guys correctly. You, by contrast, had 8 missile launchers that could one shot his Wraithguard-were you spamming S8 AP3 then? By your definition of spamming (>1 apparently) you were.

I was in error. Tempest launchers are S4, Heavy 2, AP 3. However, he had some bonus or upgrade which allowed his exarchs to fire an additional shot. So instead of heavy 3, it was, in fact, heavy 4.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BTNeophyte wrote:1) You should try playing a lower point game.

2) Your opponent does not want to lower the power level of his army further, which leaves you with a few options options:

A) increase the power level of your army: this will require spending money, it's a reality of 40k. You can also either proxy or ask your opponent to borrow models

B) not play your opponent

C) accept that you have horrible matchups based on what you own and keep playing

Ultimately, I agree with the basic gist of this, but I acknowledge as much in the OP.

What annoys me is that in conceding to the letter of my request, but not to the spirit of my request, my opponent basically wasted my time. What he should have said is: "Though I have the models to create a list which is roughly equivalent in power level to yours, I really don't feel like doing so." That would have been a perfectly acceptable answer and would have saved me the tediousness.

What you should have done; is written his list for him. That seems to be the only situation you would have been satisfied with.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Listen, this is a game, there are winners and losers in a game. If you want to win, step your game up, dont whine and taie it like a man when you loose

While true, we should remember what a certain old poster once said. "The objective of the game is to win. The purpose of the game is to have fun. The two should not be confused."

Which means you should try to find opponents that enjoy the game in the same way you do, not try to force some random guy to down/upgrade his army or game for you.

Byt that right, the opponet should make this list.
Listen, you list kinda sucks, im sorry. but who you gave rhinos too haphhazard, everyone should be i rhinos or drop pods. quite frankly, Imperial fists work better with them
Second, Devs with ML is kinda not good, Try Grav Cannons. like, their really good, even coming down on droppod
Third, Your Aux is good, but sternguard just suck without the transports. Droppods are good because they benifit from the formations -2 debuff.

He adhered to the letter and not the spirit of your request because he have you the benefit of the doubt that you were just asking him to tone down his list (I.e., take a subpar TAC list, which is what he did) and not asking him to min-max his own list such that yours could beat him and you wouldn't have hurt feelings.

What you experienced was not list tailoring. I know list tailoring-in my own group, there's a guy who if you play Orks against him will bring 15 flamers and proxy 5 Leman Russ punishers, and if you play tanks against him every flamer magically becomes a melta and each Russ a Vanquisher.

Your buddy's list was not that. Because it was a TAC list, and MEQ are one of the things you plan for, he included 2 anti-MEQ guns and rolled a good psychic power. He also included dedicated anti tank, short ranged light infantry, and anti-MC despite knowing you had none of those.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Your opponent basically wasted your time only if your attitude is that a game you can not win is a waste of your time (while at the same time claiming you just want to play for fun.) this is the hypocrisy at the root of the scrub mentality and is precisely why it is reviled-no elitism needed.

 Thud wrote:
I choose to play with lists that aren't very good. I have no desire to improve at the game. It's my opponent's responsibility that I enjoy my hobby. He is obliged to change his army list to better suit mine. My army list, however, is built based on what I want to play with, so that's obviously not changing. If he doesn't change the way he's enjoying his hobby for my benefit, he's a bad guy. I'm not, though. I'm wonderful. I'm entitled to other people making compromises, but I shouldn't have to make any.

Thud gets it exactly.

Keep going after those windmills, Traditio!

Traditio wrote:

I was playing:

Pedro Kantor
Captain with power fist, stormbolter and artificer armor
Chaplain

4 5 man tactical squads, sarges with bolters and meltabombs
1 5 man tactical squad, sarge with stormbolter, 1 guy with multimelta; free rhino with dozer blades
1 5 man tactical squad, 1 guy with plasma cannon
1 5 man assault squad with two flamers in free rhino with dozer blades
1 5 man assault squad with one flamer in a free rhino.
1 5 man devastator squad with 4 missile launchers
1 6 man devastator squad with 4 missile launchers with flakk.
3 5 man sternguard squads
1 5 man honor guard squad; 4 maces and champion with power sword

A few things:
1) Your list needs to change. Currently, it's completely dysfunctional and has almost 0 synergies... Why is your dedicated close combat squad only 5 guys & running? Where are your special weapons? Why use a GSF when you can't make proper use of it's greatest strength?
I could go on, and on...

While it's harder to play 40k on a tight budget, it's readily doable - especially with Marines!
First lesson; Never buy Rhinos!!! The Razorback kit is only a couple bucks more, and is the exact same kit + 1 additional sprue. Don't glue the top plate in place - instead just glue the two halves of the rhino top hatch together, and now you can swap your vehicle between whatever floats your boat.
Same deal when buying the likes of a Whirlwind and/or Predator kit. Don't glue the top plate in place, nor the side sponsons in the case of a Predator. Now when/if you don't want to bring that tank, your have another Rhino/Razorback at your disposal.

For special weapons, just ask around your local Imperial players. Anyone who's bought even a couple basic Marine kits almost certainly has a small mountain of unused Special weapons laying around. Adding a Plasma or Meltagun to each of those naked Bolter squads would alone be a significant boost!
Granted Heavy weapons are much more difficult to come by, but at worst, you can save up things like your spare change over the course of a month or two and invest in a single Devastator Squad box. That's plenty of Heavy weapons, including a pair of the game's best Grav cannons.

Librarians are easily converted from basic Marines... Take a spare shoulder pad, use a black fine point marker to outline the basic shape of the psychic hood, then cut/file it down. File down the raised edges of the pad, then glue in place along the back collar of the armour. Add a proper fancy-looking sword/staff/axe, and extra bling to the Marine and boom - super cheap Librarian!
Do this 3 times and you can run a Conclave formation alongside your Battle Company.


2) Play smaller games. If you can't do much more than bring a nearly naked min-sized army to an 1850pts game, then stop playing 1850pts games!

Yes it may suck at first having to drop a few squads, but playing 1000pts or 1500pts means that you can (for once) properly kit out your squads with actual support, instead of just running handfuls of bolter chumpies across the table and hoping for a miracle.
Once you can add a few more Razorbacks/Drop Pods and flesh out your Special weapons entirely, then you can go back to playing the full GSF.


3) Play Mealstrom missions. Marines in general are not a good army for playing nothing but kill points/tabling opponents. If that's all your playing, then STOP!
Play missions, play to the mission objectives. That's what Marines are amazing at. Yes you're still going to lose handfuls of stuff, but that's half the fun of the game, is seeing crap get blown to hell and back!
Point is, with proper missions, Marines will win more than they could ever hope to in mindless 'kill everything' style snorefests.

the_scotsman wrote:
Your opponent basically wasted your time only if your attitude is that a game you can not win is a waste of your time (while at the same time claiming you just want to play for fun.) this is the hypocrisy at the root of the scrub mentality and is precisely why it is reviled-no elitism needed.

That's pretty much true by definition. An unwinnable game by definition is an exercise in futility. The spirit of the request was: "Bring a list which has roughly an equal chance of beating mine, independently of player skill, terrain, deployment positions, etc."

Granted, there is no obligation to do so.

Nonetheless, as for the general "attitude" of people who think that such a request is silly in principle, again, refer to the OP.

Traditio wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Your opponent basically wasted your time only if your attitude is that a game you can not win is a waste of your time (while at the same time claiming you just want to play for fun.) this is the hypocrisy at the root of the scrub mentality and is precisely why it is reviled-no elitism needed.

That's pretty much true by definition. An unwinnable game by definition is an exercise in futility. The spirit of the request was: "Bring a list which has roughly an equal chance of beating mine, independently of player skill, terrain, deployment positions, etc."

Which you didn't ask. You asked them to not bring certain units, how could they know what your list would be and your (frankly suicidal) tactic?
Your opponent is not at any fault for bringing units which they felt they would be allowed to.

If I was your opponent, I'd be rather annoyed at the fact that nothing they do is appropriate to you! Would you rather choose their list for them? Would you dictate to them what they do? Because it honestly feels like that what you're trying to do here.

Granted, there is no obligation to do so.

Nonetheless, as for the general "attitude" of people who think that such a request is silly in principle, again, refer to the OP.

The request isn't silly, it's the demanding of such a request with no intention of altering your own playstyle. You're asking everyone else except you to change, which frankly doesn't lend well to enjoyable play.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Which you didn't ask. You asked them to not bring certain units, how could they know what your list would be and your (frankly suicidal) tactic?
Your opponent is not at any fault for bringing units which they felt they would be allowed to.

It just occurs to me that I've provided very little information about my opponent. The way that my thread probably sounds is that I have was making this request to a random stranger.

That would just be silly.

This is a friend of mine whom I've played before and who has a pretty decent knowledge of what I'm using.

And it still sounds like you need to be abundantly clear on what you expect of him (which is still treading a fine line of just telling him exactly what to bring by the sounds of it) and that you need to improve your own list too.

You seriously can't expect him to do all the work by bringing his list down sufficiently if you're not going to do any of the work to bring your list up.

I play rock. I asked my opponent to play scissors. He took paper. That bastard.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
I play rock. I asked my opponent to play scissors. He took paper. That bastard.

It's more like I took rock, and in turn, asked my opponent also to take rock, and then to have a re-match of rock-paper-scissors at the moment of deployment.

There is no sense in which I asked my opponent to "let me win," as some of you seem to be implying. Making a game winnable is not the same thing as asking to be allowed to win.

It's one thing to request that a staircase by carved into a mountain. It's quite another thing to request that someone carry you up said staircase.

Looking at things you definitely had more chance to win than you make out.

Experiment 626 wrote:A few things:
1) Your list needs to change. Currently, it's completely dysfunctional and has almost 0 synergies... Why is your dedicated close combat squad only 5 guys & running? Where are your special weapons? Why use a GSF when you can't make proper use of it's greatest strength?
I could go on, and on...

I broadly agree with this. What I've been doing is grouping Pedro, the chaplain, the captain and the honor guard together and making them embark a rhino on turn 1.

I don't think it's been working.

What I think I'll do instead is:

1. Add special/heavy weapons to the 4 "naked" tac squads.

I've been having a fair amount of success with the plasma cannon squad, and the multimelta hasn't been a complete waste. I'm thinking more plasma and melta.

2. Convert the honor guard back into base sternguard.

3. Drop Pedro (he's just not worth the points).

4. Gradually add rhinos to my list over time.

5. Drop the stormbolters.

6. Upgrade the second devastator squad to use flakk missiles also.

Steps in the right direction?